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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #15 on: 06 April 2006, 10:25:00 »

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However, my point about randomness still stands. The question behind is this: What decides which property an oun will express? With magic it is fine, the mage does, and if NOTHING decides, it is random. But what if you push the feather with your hand, what makes the ounia in the feather express motion, and not invisibility? (Unless we transfer ounia with that push, but that makes less sence)

This is one of the question I can't really answer. Not even philosophers can seem to answer this in real life. What REALLY causes things to happen? No one really knows--that's why I came up with natural will. It can explain the phenomenon of causes.

Quote:
I need to know degrees of ahmness because you say:
Mage can read the history of something by examining the links it has, as links never vanish, they turn ahm.

But, for that to work, a mage must be able to somehow know how old an ahm link is, or, at least, which ahm links became ahm first and which became ahm later - else he won't find any knowledge about the history of the object, if all ahm links are identical.

Ahm-links which are older have a past you can observe and note--you can see when a link was ahm or soor depending on the imprint made on the ounia itself. Keep in mind that we're not talking in terms of reading actual lines or anything. The line-thing is a metaphor, the best explanation we can come up with for how this occurs. Ahm and soor can both be equally observed in the history of a link.

Quote:
Uhm, not quite the sort of explanation I wanted, I'm afraid. Lets see if I can phrase it better. We know that soor xeua links are necessary for an oun's properties to be expressed. What I want to know is why that is so, and how it works. My idea was that the xeua links express the properties for the oun. You seem to prefer the idea that ounia express the properties themselves. However, in that case, it should be explained why having soor links causes 'turns on' the properties in an oun, and having ahm links does the opposite.

I see what you're looking for. Soor links are like the energy of Santharia. You can look at it like that in metaphor, too. Say that xeua are electrical wiring and each oun is a lightbulb. When there is no current in the wire (ahm), the lightbulb is dark and doesn't light up (show its qualities). However, when you let a current flow through the wire, the lightbulb will go on (the oun thus expresses its properties). This, I think, is the clearest example.

You could also see it as a watermill. When the river is moving (soor), the water mill is in motion (has the energy to produce its properties). However, in the summer when the river dries up (ahm), the watermill stops (and doesn't have the energy to produce its properties).

Is this better?

Quote:
I didn't miss it; I just don't understand why it is so. Why does trying to be more like Wind cause heat, for example? Wind isn't by itself hot. The term 'voice' is also slightly confusing to me. What is its actual definition?

Heat is fire trying to achieve the motion of wind. This is an easy example: When you put dye into a cup of cold water, it just sort of sits there--it take a long time for the dye to spread throughout the cup. However, when you put dye into a cup of warm water, it moves rather quickly, and eventually spreads throughout the cup. I tend to drink a lot of tea--maybe I supposed this was more obvious than it actually was.

Quote:
It seems to me though, that if this was the case, ounia have to actually exist. I thought that we weren't supposed to have anything that actually proves any one magic system to be the 'right' one?

I suppose we do run into some trouble here, though we still really have no way of proving that the magic system exists based on oun. How would we? We could say "I'm going to show oun exist by adding some ounia to this car'all to make _____ occur," but a cleric could do the same thing saying that it was the gift of his/her God.  

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #16 on: 06 April 2006, 13:52:00 »

Ok, as promised I try to go through the entry here to give my point of view:

Legend

Orange ... Comments
Yellow ... Changes/modifications
Gray ... Unclear passages, which need to be rephrased

(The very first thing I'm already missing here is a comprehensible Overview part for non-mages. You go immeditately into medias res, so normal mortals probably would drop out pretty soon from the entry.

The Overview part should be as simple as possible, and - among other things - e.g. explain that oún is a Styrásh word, is used as a term in scholarly Ximaxian magic and I guess should be translated with "part".

Then I would continue with De*****ion.)


De*****ion.
An oún (plural ounía), along with xeuá links, compose everything in the universe. An oún can be defined as a single unit of which all bodies (generally speaking, meaning entities and structures) consist, and which imposes its properties in degree based on the connections it maintains with surrounding units and in quality by the element with which it is identified: earth, water, wind, or fire. More simply, an oún is a unit with the capability of producing properties that effect the cár’áll (if this should be an entry, then the reader should be introduced a bit in the terminology used here as well, currently you take for granted that only magical experts read this - a Compendium entry should be accessible for everyone, that's why someone is looking up what "ounía" are...) in which it is contained. The links connecting it to surrounding oúnia determine to what degree these properties are manifested in the cár’áll: if an oún is connected majorly by soór, or active xeuá links, to other ounía of its elemental kind the property will be expressed, and if it’s connected by ahm links, or inactive xeuá links, such properties won’t dominate the cár'áll's structure. The amount of oúnia also influences a cár’áll, but only if these oúnia are soór linked. (Uhmmm... Don't understand that.) A mage manipulates these interactions in conducting a spell, but they also exist independently in nature.

Every oún has two types of effects they can create given active links: physical and spiritual. Physical effects are those that alter the physical qualities of a cár’áll, be it for instance motion or temperature. Spiritual effects can only affect something with an individual and discernable will or spirit, namely something alive. A rock cannot be made to be happy or sad just as making someone physically heavier does not directly cause a spiritual or emotional change.

The Elements
There are four elements: wind, water, earth, and fie. An oún will belong to one of these qualities or elements, and that element defines the possibiliy of properties and qualities that oún can show actively when set in relation to other ounía forming a cár'áll. The nature of properties and qualities imposed by the elements through the oún are defined, in part, through the explanation of that element: According to the often cited elven principles mentioned in the Cárpa'dosían creation myth wind and earth are the primary elements and antagonists, while water is wind trying to be earth and fire is earth trying to be wind in the eternal struggle of the elements. The Ximaxian theory of elemental interpretation is heavily influenced by this mythical elven point of view and deduces from there interesting consequences for elemental magical theory: Wind and earth are stable in terms of their given realms of influence, their metaphysical place, while water and fire, extensions of wind and earth, suffer perennial instability because of their desires—the properties and qualities are defined in one part from their base element (fire with earth and water with wind), and in second part from the expression of these desires for the opposing element (fire for wind and water for earth).

It can be said metaphorically that the ideas of wind and earth are identical to their voices, while the ideas of fire and water are not, and what is “voiced” by these elements are in fact attempts to express their desires and find direction in doing so. Heat, for example, is fire’s attempt to become more like wind, while cold is water trying to assume the solidity of earth. The instability of these elements also contributes to their relative chaotic/random properties (fire more than water because of the permanence of earth that water tried to manifest). This instability, however, is eternal, and fire will never become wind just as water will never become earth. It is important to mention the permanence of these states.

Properties and Qualities

(I read the following paragraphs over and over again - and have severe problems following you in this section! I saw that Mina and Silfer also don't seem to understand these arguments here, because they are indeed really shaky and irritating. I still don't know why this seperation is necessary at all, for example: How do you explain that a fire is hot, if it's not a quality? Why is heat a property of fire if fire doesn't have the heat quality?

I personally think this distinction complicates things to the extreme - and the arguments are not sound.)


Properties and qualities are two distinguishable parts of any oún. The property of an oún can be described as the physical or spiritual effects an oún imposes on its cár’áll that requires an active (soór) link to be expressed. The qualities of an oún exist independent of the activity (soór) or inactivity (ahm) of the links connecting it. Qualities describe behaviors of an oún granted by its element and often imposed on the links of an oún by that oún. Heat is a property of fire, but the oún itself does not have the quality of heat—if it did, a cár’áll containing fire oún would have heat even if there were not active links connecting it. (Where's the problem if fire ounía if activated can be activated in a heat direction, because they align easily to a heat property?) Temperature, be it initiated by fire or water, is not a quality. Meanwhile. The solidity of earth, while a property, is also a quality. Earth oún generally resist changing state, and impose the quality of stability on the links connected to it to make changes more difficult. Heaviness is a quality of fire oún which is not a property and does not necessary effect the links connecting it, but which causes the oun to generally stay close to the earth. Lightness, similarly, is a quality of water that keeps it suspended in wind.

Qualities define the natural tendencies of elements, but can be overcome based on the behavior of other elements to which an oún is connected. Fire, although light, can become actively connected to earth and stay close to the ground. Increasing the amount of active links does not necessarily increase a quality or make a quality more prominent. Fire actively connected to wind may cause lightning, which brings the fire oún back to the ground, but can also aid in the creation of tornados, which play on the chaotic property of this element.

Elemental Interdependence
Properties create interdependence between elements. For every property an element has, another element (usually the opposition element) has an equal and opposite property. For example, fire may have the property of heat, but water will have the property of cold, and although earth may have the property of solidity, wind has the property of movement. This means that the realms of all the elements overlap and interact.

Every element can control its “opposite property” to some degree. Fire can lessen heat to cool things down, just as earth can lessen stability and cause motion (Not very precise - you mean that a mage can lessen fire dominance within a cár'áll to make something cold, which is a negative fire spell etc. But the elements fire and earth cannot cast spells.); however, the control is very limited. When a fire mage, for example, lessens the prominence of his element, he makes the links connecting fire oún go from soór to ahm. By the Conservation of Voice Principle, a cár’áll will necessarily maintain the same amount of soór and ahm contained within it. Thus, when the fire mage turns the links to ahm, soór links must replace what were ahm links. This includes links with water. However, because a fire mage can’t control water, or any of the other elements, he or she can’t regulate soór links to water to express coldness.

Although it isn’t common, there occasionally are times when two opposing elements both express opposition qualities in the same cár’áll. This is a very rare circumstance, because it not only requires the same amount of ounía for each element, but the same amount of soór links connecting them. Collisions of properties are thus extremely rare. In this situation, however, there are two possible behaviors. All elements fight for dominance in any cár’áll --but the will keeps them balanced; however, more than dominance an element wants its properties expressed, so when neither element has its qualities expressed, it turns to expressing other qualities. For example, wind and earth are both expressing their particular property of motion and immobility but, because they both have the same amount influence over the cár’áll, don’t have their property expressed, they turn to other properties—perhaps lightness in the case of wind and solidity in the case of earth. Another less possible outcome is an impact of sorts, where the two qualities collide and the impact bumps soór links to other elements. This is extremely rare, and typically happens only between water and fire do to their chaotic or random properties.

---------------

That's as far as I got...  The key issue to me is really the quality/property thing - have to read up on various comments here, but tried to give my impressions by looking at the final text only. And here I see a major problem right now.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 4/5/06 21:58
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« Reply #17 on: 06 April 2006, 15:17:00 »

Arti: I would disagree on qualities and properties. We can call them anything you like - the words themselves are names only.

The gist is this: There are properties that need soor links to be expressed. Then there are properties (meaning effects, in both sentences) that do not require soor links to be expressed. An object containing earth is difficult to alter (hardness/solidity) even if the earth car'all isn't soor-linked. Whether or not the object is still, however, would depend on the links.

Lack of understanding does not equal wrong concept ;)  (Sorry, had to)

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« Reply #18 on: 06 April 2006, 15:55:00 »

It doesn't get any clearer, though. Actually it gets pitch dark here.

What doesn't need soór links to be expressed? You mean a stone isn't soór linked? A stone to me is the paradigm of active soór links.


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« Reply #19 on: 07 April 2006, 20:58:00 »

Quote:
I see what you're looking for. Soor links are like the energy of Santharia. You can look at it like that in metaphor, too. Say that xeua are electrical wiring and each oun is a lightbulb. When there is no current in the wire (ahm), the lightbulb is dark and doesn't light up (show its qualities). However, when you let a current flow through the wire, the lightbulb will go on (the oun thus expresses its properties). This, I think, is the clearest example.

You could also see it as a watermill. When the river is moving (soor), the water mill is in motion (has the energy to produce its properties). However, in the summer when the river dries up (ahm), the watermill stops (and doesn't have the energy to produce its properties).

Is this better?

Yes, much better now.  I think it makes sense.  

Quote:
Heat is fire trying to achieve the motion of wind. This is an easy example: When you put dye into a cup of cold water, it just sort of sits there--it take a long time for the dye to spread throughout the cup. However, when you put dye into a cup of warm water, it moves rather quickly, and eventually spreads throughout the cup. I tend to drink a lot of tea--maybe I supposed this was more obvious than it actually was.

Uhm, I still don't get it.  Motion is motion, and heat is heat.  What do they have to do with each other?  Other than the fact that warmer fluids move around more.  

Quote:
I suppose we do run into some trouble here, though we still really have no way of proving that the magic system exists based on oun. How would we? We could say "I'm going to show oun exist by adding some ounia to this car'all to make _____ occur," but a cleric could do the same thing saying that it was the gift of his/her God.

Well, if you could read ounia, then they probably exist, which greatly supports the Ximaxian theories.  I could be taking it too literally though, since I still don't completely understand the idea of reading ounia.  

Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, we postulate that if properties collide, the ounia that are colliding will both turn to expressing other properties instead. Then I ask - if water tries to express coldness, but there is too much fire, would that water not instead turn to expressing something else, rather than "modify" the fire? (On second thought, we could just as well say that water DOES get to express coldness, which is why the object does not become superhot, but hotter.)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It's a possibility, I suppose. What does Mina think?


It seems I missed this one.  Well, lets say you have a bunch of fire ounia expressing heat, and link some of them with water ounia trying to express coldness.  You could get something similar to what we came up with in the lightning thread.  Alternatively, the fire ounia linked to the water ounia stop expressing heat, and those water ounia stop expressing coldness.  The object then gets cooler, though it's due to less fire ounia expressing heat rather than water actually getting to express coldness.  


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« Reply #20 on: 08 April 2006, 09:10:00 »

A stone has soor-linked earth. Wind does not. However, perceptibility is a quality of earth. You can percieve the wind through sense of touch. All elements have perceptibility, because they all have earth, even if it's not soor-linked.

Of all the people waiting to get entries checked, of all the people waiting for approval on entries that are complete, I'm not sure why you chose to edit this one, Artimidor, which, as you can see, is still being discussed and worked out by the three of us. It wasn't even close to going up, and the complaints you have on properties and qualities are ones that I already know about and that Silfer, Mina, and I are trying to figure out. Noting your confusion did nothing to farther the discussion which had already arisen concerning properties and qualities. I think it was simply a waste of your time to comment on an entry that wasn't ready for you. It makes me a bit irritated, especially since I have an entry that has essentially been waiting for you for 2 years.

This is just going to put me into a bad mood for the rest of this entry. I'm sorry, Mina.

Quote:
Uhm, I still don't get it. Motion is motion, and heat is heat. What do they have to do with each other? Other than the fact that warmer fluids move around more.

I want you to read this again. It's essentially like saying "How does heat have motion, save for the fact that it has motion?"

Quote:
Well, if you could read ounia, then they probably exist, which greatly supports the Ximaxian theories. I could be taking it too literally though, since I still don't completely understand the idea of reading ounia.

It's called "reading," in the same way a fortune teller "reads" tarot cards--there isn't actually any writing on the cards, though. When someone "reads" your palm, they're not actually reading. It's a popular metaphor. In our case, reading an ounia kind of means, I suppose, concentrating on it with great intensity to discover the paths it has taken in its recent existence.

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« Reply #21 on: 08 April 2006, 09:23:00 »

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I want you to read this again. It's essentially like saying "How does heat have motion, save for the fact that it has motion?"

Gah, what was I thinking when I wrote that?  :o   Still, couldn't it be explained by the tendency for Fire to link with Wind?  


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« Reply #22 on: 08 April 2006, 09:38:00 »

Except it's not in wind--it's in water. Water which is soor-linked, at least somewhat, to earth (which keeps it a liquid in a confined space). Keep in mind that fire also has animation, too.

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« Reply #23 on: 08 April 2006, 09:57:00 »

But water which is warm would have to have some soor links to Fire too, Fire which could well be linked to Wind.  I see the problem with this line of arguement, which is that the Wind ounia aren't necessarily linked to the Water ounia, but perhaps the Fire ounia they are both linked to can pass on the effects somehow?  Yeah, now I'm really confused.  Ugh, sometimes I wonder if I made the right choice in deciding to work with magic.  

Yes, Fire has animation too.  I suppose that is more likely the property caused by the desire to become like Wind than heat.  But, like I said, I'm thoroughly confused about this.  It might be a while before I get it; I hope you guys won't mind too much.  


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« Reply #24 on: 08 April 2006, 10:34:00 »

Well, I'm gonna throw in my own firecracker. I didn't read everything, but I'll try to pick up where you peeps are discussing.

Anyway, as I said in the other thread, maybe we should look at the links between ounia instead of the ounia themselves? Maybe even making them bidirectional (as in one part of the link could be more active then the other).
For example:
passive fire-water link: cold
active fire-water link: warm
or
fire --++ water: cold (water side more active)
fire ++-- water: warm (fire side more active)
and equally active/passive would be neutral.

Not saying it should be like that, but just an idea.

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Edited by: Marvin Cerambit  at: 4/7/06 18:36
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« Reply #25 on: 08 April 2006, 10:52:00 »

@Rayne: Well, I've read the "EDIT: Ok, it's done, I suppose." - so I thought a detailed check is needed right now, and so I took the time to take a closer look. I hope some comments are helpful, though.

I really appreciate the time you put into this and hope for further progress here, as the issue is a quite important one to clarify and get up on the site eventually. The qualities/property thing is still essential to deal with, so I just tried to give my opinion here and warn from too complex thinking in this respect - maybe it helps to try a different approach which is better understandable. Comments are not made to cause a bad day for someone, but to point out problems.

And yup, I'll get to the poem this weekend as promised - I've had years of preparation to check it;)  


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 4/7/06 18:53
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« Reply #26 on: 08 April 2006, 12:07:00 »

Mina: I leave you to think about it a bit. We'll see if Silfer can spread light on some things of which I am not adept in explaining.

Marvin: You're proposing, essentially, that links can be ahm and soor and different points. This is an inconsistent idea. By focung on oun in particular, we get to focus on effect, those which influence the entire car'all. Links are relatively simple n that they can either be ahm or soor. Ounia are what gives us troble.

Arti: I guess you missed the red letters which read "I'm requesting any major suggestions/problems be held off for now." I don't know how you missed it, given that it was at the very top and put into bright red font.

It's not the fact you pointed out problems that irritates me--it's the fact you pointed out problems which I already knew of, and that I have been discussing with Mina and Silfer since the entry was posted.

Arti, niether you nor I nor anyone here REALLY knows how the magic system works. No one has all the bugs worked out. We are trying to find a suitable magical explanation to explain observable events and phenomena. Maybe I'm right about properties/qualities and maybe I'm not, but trust me, we know that it IS a complex concept and that it IS unclear. We're not children--we have some idea of what we're doing. Let us discuss it amongst ourselves and try to find a working solution.

If you want to help discuss this, fine, but you have to stop in more than once in a blue moon. If you don't have the time to actively participate in the discussion, then you need to stay back--coming here and reading an entry, then commenting on it 1) without reading the pretty red words or 2) without reading the ongoing discusion just doesn't work, and isn't helpful in the least.

There are other discussions and entries here on the board which more direly need your attention. The fact you chose to comment on this one over them is, I feel, a poor decision lacking in efficiency and expediency.

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« Reply #27 on: 08 April 2006, 16:02:00 »

*miaow!* We are getting lost into confusion hyperspace here.

I wrote a bit of an attempt at reasoning here, but scrapped that. Question: Do we need to say that heat is  the attempt of fire to become more like wind? We know that heat is a property of fire, because a fire mage rises flame and it gets hot, he quells it and it gets cold.

We do know that fire wants to be wind - but for the explanaton of heat as "fire's attempt to become wind" to hold, we need to know that heat is motion  - which we don't, not in our middle.ages. And even if we did, it does not explain why wind isn't hot by itself.

The answer would be to suggest the tug-of-war between stillness/solidity of earth and motion of wind as causing heat - but then we would need some sort of energy concept, and we don't want that.

But I repeat - we know fire has heat, by observation. So we don't really need to explain how that has come to pass... but it would be nice.

We could do a sleight of hand and say that heat is the middle form of motion and solidity, just like fire is the middle from of wind and earth. Then we can answer Mina's question - why does wanting to be wind cause heat? Because heat is what you get when you increase motion, BUT as long as you have enough solidity left. As soon as you lose the solidity, it is pure motion, and no longer heat. Of course, this rests on the axiom that heat IS indeed the middle-form. The fact that fire is earth wanting to be wind does support it, though.

As for qualities: I found this problem, Rayne: If they are inherent and require no links to be expressed, how can you manipulate them? We have spells that manipulate the solididty of earth, for instance.

(I also found a possible answer - you manipulate them by rearranging car'all - like I do in the break spell. I can't lower the solidity of earth, so I move the earth ounia away for a bit)

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« Reply #28 on: 09 April 2006, 03:03:00 »

Quote:
You're proposing, essentially, that links can be ahm and soor and different points. This is an inconsistent idea.

Not really, but I figure I was thinking too complex again with the bidirectional thing. I tend to do that sometimes 8o

The proposal however was that maybe the links between the ounia resulted in certain properties instead of the ounia themselves. An oun that isn't connected to anything would be inert, amh would give a weak effect and soor a strong one.

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