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Author Topic: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System  (Read 34606 times)
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Falethas Whisperwind
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« Reply #15 on: 04 June 2006, 14:39:00 »

*Tries in vain to resist the immensely strong powers of the dreaded puppy eyes, but alas...* :broadgrin
Coren - basically what he was saying was that Weavers were possessed of too much power because they could actually alter the true nature of items to change their existential forms.  He also suggested that the formal write-up contain simple descriptions of the Spheres and their functions and purposes.  
Now, I don't claim to be an expert on Santharian magic (like he did... grr...) but I understand the general concepts involved and would like to learn more so that I can take a bigger part in these magical theory discussions than just repeating what my Coór-darned brother said.  IMHO, it is a rather powerful ability to be able to alter something's true nature through manipulation of the cár'áll itself, but I guess this could be supported by saying that Weavers are extremely rare and use their powers only when the situation severely demands it?  All you magi out there, correct me if I'm wrong...

Edited by: Ysuran Auondril at: 6/3/06 22:41
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Epthaeranté á sáh pheranía sáh alyría; ahmantát naithím sá sae'llán styaeyías.
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #16 on: 04 June 2006, 14:45:00 »

Weavers may be extinct, away in another dimension, or been transformed by Rayne but they are not the only ones who use Raw Magic!

@Ysuran: Raw mages are extremely rare - it's more like a god(s)-given talent. Not even the most gifted mages of the Academy reproduce - or imo even truly understand - raw magic. See the general entry on the magic of Caelereth

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Falethas Whisperwind
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« Reply #17 on: 04 June 2006, 15:14:00 »

Once again, I do not claim to be an expert; I was merely relaying what my brother said.  
Quick question on my part, though - if raw magic is a god(s)-given talent, then is it closer to clerical magic or the power of faith than it is to the secular science of elemental magic?  

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Epthaeranté á sáh pheranía sáh alyría; ahmantát naithím sá sae'llán styaeyías.
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #18 on: 04 June 2006, 16:20:00 »

its closer to to Ximaxian magic because, despite the fact it is given by the gods, using it does not require their assistance.  In clerical magic(at least in my understanding) you are able to do something because the god does it through you.  While in Raw magic you are able to do it yourself.

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #19 on: 05 June 2006, 03:44:00 »

Don't forget that having a beautiful voice is also a god-given talent! That is the sense I used the term (ie "ability"), didn't mean to suggest a clerical approach.

Raw Magic is neither close to Ximaxian nor clerical magic. "Raw Magic" as I understand it simply describes a type of magic which achieves its effects by directly altering the Form of the Carall. If you do read the entries - and I hope you have done so already Drasil before posting so many spells everyday!- you will see that Raw Magic is not taught in the Academy. Hence, "Raw Magic" is not part of the "Ximaxian system".

Clerical magic can sometimes achieve the effects of raw magic - that of directly altering the Form of something - indirectly. Now what does this mean? That when a cleric "casts magic" (ie prays to his deity for help) he does not have "altering the Form of a carall" in mind as his purpose. Imho he would just have the desired effect (eg turning sand to flour) in mind and due to the power of his faith or divine intervention that is achieved. What happened here is that sand transformed into flour because the Idea of Sand around which that object (the sand) was constituted was substituted with the Idea of Flour. So directly altering the Form of something - ie raw magic - was achieved in an indirect way. But keep in mind that not all effects achieved by clerical magic are raw magic effects! In fact these would be only very very very rare occurences




Also, can I request that you only focus on what needs to be changed in or added to the guide in this thread? Otherwise it just gets crowded and people lose track of the actual discussion.  

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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

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so orril miesefer
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« Reply #20 on: 05 June 2006, 21:22:00 »

IMHO you should add a Corenized explanation on Raw Magic.

Now, that change of the form makes the Raw mage shapeshifters, and lets them to transform things in whatever they want... That's really overpowerful.

I have a question... Raw Mages can alter the time or no magic can do that? If no magic can do that... should we create Time Magic?

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.

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Mina
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« Reply #21 on: 05 June 2006, 22:43:00 »

That's a somewhat old entry, Coren.  I've not even referred to it for ages.  In any case, if it isn't part of the Ximaxian system, as you said, then what's it doing in an explanation of Ximaxian magic?  

Anyway, yes, if raw magic still exists, it's a separate magic system, nothing to do with the Ximaxians.  Lets leave that for some other time.  As for directly altering the form of something, well, I did say above that xeua and ecua used together could in theory achieve it.  Xeua and ecua are the most powerful forms of Ximaxian magic, and as far as I know, there's pretty much nothing that can't be done if they're used together.  


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so orril miesefer
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« Reply #22 on: 06 June 2006, 12:16:00 »

Time travel??? I still whant to know a magical explanation of time...

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.

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What's my magic? is my treasure, What's my god? is my freedom, my law? the strenght and the wind, my mother country is the sky.--- So Orril, Sky Tower apprentice
Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #23 on: 06 June 2006, 14:32:00 »

No time travel. Time travel is not possible by Ximaxian magic. Time btw is one of those things that don't need explaining IMHO. I mean, it's not like we have any real explanation for it (other then just calling it the 4th dimention which is hardly something you can imagine).

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Edited by: Marvin Cerambit  at: 6/5/06 22:33
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #24 on: 08 June 2006, 10:31:00 »

You can alter the Form VERY significantly (i would even say completely) with Xeua and Ecua working together but that is not a 'direct' alteration of the Form imho. (theoretically) You alter the structure by breaking some links and forming new ones so drastically that the new structure represents a different "idea" (making fish into a bird?). So as a result you have managed to change the form completely.

And yes, you are right... It doesn't make sense to include a section on Raw Magic here. I'll just twist the explanation along these lines: "Although theoretically direct substitution of the Form of  a carall is able to (...) ,no part of the ximaxian system deals with or is able to perform these kind of manipulations."

I just want to keep some of it there (though not titling it Raw magic and saying noone can do such things) to explain what the Form stands for and why it is needed.

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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #25 on: 08 June 2006, 17:56:00 »

The way we are discussing it, Raw magic is starting to sound more and more like an advanced form of Euca and Xeua.

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #26 on: 09 June 2006, 03:05:00 »

No, two totally different concepts. We don't classify magic schools according to the effects they produce but the "how", the way they do achieve those effects.

Anyway, let's leave Raw Magic out for now not to clutter this thread.

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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #27 on: 10 June 2006, 04:40:00 »

I think you'd better explain what this Form and Idea thing is, Coren.  I don't think I quite get what you were trying to say.  


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so orril miesefer
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« Reply #28 on: 10 June 2006, 08:12:00 »

Form: Physical reflection of the idea.

Idea: The full concept of an object (i.e a metal chair of X * Y color Z)

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.

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What's my magic? is my treasure, What's my god? is my freedom, my law? the strenght and the wind, my mother country is the sky.--- So Orril, Sky Tower apprentice
Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #29 on: 10 June 2006, 09:17:00 »

I don't think that your definition works Orril for ideas are not always true.  You should add a disclamer word to say to that definition before you use it Coren to say that and idea is possible, but not always correct.

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