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Author Topic: Magic for Beginners: The Essence of the Ximaxian System  (Read 34619 times)
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #30 on: 10 June 2006, 09:38:00 »

Orril you are totally, completely off the mark. :: sigh ::

It seems I am not doing such a great job at the explanations afterall... I need to think on it for sometime to come up with a better way of clarifying the issue. If you are familiar with philosophy the "Form" is actually very similar to Plato's "Idéa" concept - that is why I keep capitalizing Idea (to connote that I use the word in a specific context as a 'term')

@Drasil: I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't understand that post.


(Magic of Caelereth)
Quote:
We've learned that the appearances of the Cár'áll (the elemental parts, see above) are different from the Cár'áll itself. The appearance of an object is its content, seemingly - but the content can only exist through the form. A table only appears as a piece of furniture because it is shaped like a table and thus represents the idea of a table. If the idea, the "soul" of the table (the Cár'áll) wouldn't exist and identify an object as a table the object would simple be a combination of wooden elements. The Cár'áll is form. It's the bag we spoke of before where you can put in things.

We have also seen that Elemental Mages modify the quality of the Cár'áll: the Fire Element, the Wind Element etc. and can make something e.g. more stable, or lighter, so that it flies.

Xeuá mages connect or seperate things, e.g. a typical Xeuá mage would be a healer who can make a wound heal faster. I choose this example, because the accelaration of the healing of a wound is something quite obvious, but of course there are several more ways to use Xeuá magic which are not that easy to follow.

A Raw Mage on the other hand goes directly for the form of the Cár'áll and therefore can do much more powerful magic. If you are capable of modifying the form itself, you could e.g. make the bag of our example much smaller, allowing only a certain limit of elemental affinities within an object. You can make something/someone more or less powerful without altering his elemental parts or the connections between them directly. Extremely powerful Raw Magic may not only reduce or improve the Cár'áll of an object (e.g. change a "large table" to a "small table", a "blue one" to a "white one" by altering its Cár'áll etc.), but can also substitute the Cár'áll, e.g. convert a table to a chair




EDIT 2: I also found a wonderful quote from Dasson (this very old so you might not be able to find it on the forums)

Quote:
Xeua is not form. It is connection. Raw is form. A raw mage goes for the way things are set up in the connection. Say you have a bridge connecting two pieces of land. An elemental mage can make one piece of land grow larger, or shrink, or whatever. A Xeua mage can make the bridge longer or shorter, or create a new bridge to another island somewhere else. An Ecua mage can destroy bridges. A Raw mage on the other hand can change what island is at what end of the bridge, what shape the islands adn bridges form etc. The former, the chaning what island is at what end, is how a raw mage manipulates the form of something, changing human to bird, by substituting the Idea of Human with the Idea of Bird.


Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 6/10/06 8:52
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #31 on: 10 June 2006, 10:29:00 »

@ Coren, I was just taking Orril's very confusing thing and making it more confusing by adding a disclamer.  Sorry.

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #32 on: 10 June 2006, 11:45:00 »

Maybe everybody reading this and discussing schould read Plato's concept of the "Idea", for as I understand it, it was the underlying concept when Art wrote the stuff.  

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so orril miesefer
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« Reply #33 on: 10 June 2006, 11:46:00 »

huh... I thought that was correct, at least that's what I learned in logic this year (or it was something like that... just very extense...)

What's my magic? My treasure. What's my God? My freedom. My law? the strength and the wind. My mother country the sky So Orril Miés'éfer, Sky master.

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What's my magic? is my treasure, What's my god? is my freedom, my law? the strenght and the wind, my mother country is the sky.--- So Orril, Sky Tower apprentice
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« Reply #34 on: 10 June 2006, 20:47:00 »

Yeah, perhaps I should try reading some Plato first.  I'll see if I can find anything useful on Wikipedia later.  

For now, Coren, the stuff you quoted from the entry isn't very helpful.  It seems to be saying that a car'all is something like a bag, into which you put ounia and xeua links to tell it what it represents.  Not only does this seem rather weird, it also doesn't resolve the issues that led me (and probably Rayne too) to come up with the "there is really only one car'all" thing.  Firstly, you would have a situation of having car'alls within car'alls within car'alls.  Consider a human.  It'd have a car'all of its own...but then, so does each of its internal organs, his blood, and whatever other stuff is in there.  And then there's the problem with things like the atmosphere or the ocean or the ground.  They can't all be one giant car'all, can they?  Were that the case, a mage would probably have a lot of trouble doing anything with them.  Then again, the quoted stuff was written in a pretty confusing manner, so I might just not be getting it.  


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Twen Araerwen
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« Reply #35 on: 10 June 2006, 21:56:00 »

IMHO There is only one Car'all, but humans and other sentient creatures could not truly envision something of this magnitude. Hence they think of smaller objects as a Car'all of its own, though more than likely this is but a piece of the overall construction.

This idea would be like a human of today trying to truly fathom the depths of infinity. Could they get an idea of it .... I would think. But most assuredly alot of the details are missing as it is infinite. A human trying to understand the vastness of the Car'all would be left in a similiar state. Too much to fully comprehend, no matter the intellect of the thinker. Just look at the plethora of magics based upon this single concept and we often say that such magics are infinite. This only gives more grounds to the vastness of the Car'all and its uses.

To my understanding all things are linked within the Car'all no matter how remotely or miniscule. This in and of itself shows that it is indeed one singular thing. I don't see how you could ponder if a mage could influence something this large Mina. The mage does not influence the entire Car'all but only the most minute of its pieces, ounia. Even then it is only one of the four types of the smallest pieces.

Humans, elves, plants, bugs and the tiniest of rocks are nothing more than various ounia (The smallest pieces of the Car'all) influencing one another to form what they are. Is it complex ... yes. But you are also discussing a magical phenom. that has basically formed all things seen and unseen over the expanse of a world.

My above comments are not meant as an offense to anyone and some or not all of it may be my opinions. Though they are opinions in which I use to view things concerning Car'all, ounia and the Santharian world as a whole.

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Edited by: Twen  Araerwen  at: 6/10/06 6:06
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #36 on: 10 June 2006, 23:58:00 »

But then you are going away from the idea of the "Idea", and how would you then define "raw magic", the altering of the "Idea"? For I would very much like to keep that model for the clerical magic in the way, Coren described it above. How do you then differ between the "one carall" and the carall of a single individuum? Is all merging together? Is an entity just a assembly of ounia hold together with links? What then about the differences between tables of different sizes and appearance, but nevertheless tables and tables and chairs?

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Mina
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« Reply #37 on: 11 June 2006, 02:20:00 »

Oh, goodness, the stuff on Wikipedia confuses me even more than the stuff that's been mentioned in this thread.  I'll see if I can find anything more useful.  

Meanwhile, I think I'd also try to write up something concerning my views about car'all and such.  It's probably time I got around to doing something like that anyway.  


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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #38 on: 11 June 2006, 02:28:00 »

You know what, I should be getting some more free time in a few weeks. I'll see if I can start something as well.

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Mina
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« Reply #39 on: 11 June 2006, 02:34:00 »

Considering the rate at which I do stuff, I won't be surprised if it takes a few weeks for me to write it.  :lol  


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Twen Araerwen
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« Reply #40 on: 11 June 2006, 05:00:00 »

Quote:
But then you are going away from the idea of the "Idea", and how would you then define "raw magic", the altering of the "Idea"? Could not the "Idea" be defined as the Car'all and the altering of groups of ounia only changing parts of the overall idea? A complex idea often has a complex set of components. For I would very much like to keep that model for the clerical magic in the way, Coren described it above. How do you then differ between the "one carall" and the carall of a single individuum? Is all merging together? As all ounia are linked in someway within the Car'all IMHO, then yes I would say they are merged to an extent. Is an entity just a assembly of ounia hold together with links? Well as an Ecua mage would only have to break the links down in a person to basically unmake them ... so yeah. What then about the differences between tables of different sizes and appearance, but nevertheless tables and tables and chairs? Alterations in the overall Car'all done by the hands of a person, people do this all the time with the simple act of breathing.

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Edited by: Twen  Araerwen  at: 6/10/06 13:10
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #41 on: 11 June 2006, 09:04:00 »

I don't agree with many of the concerns voiced. I will respond in full detail later this weekend. Just posting to let you know I've noticed the queries

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« Reply #42 on: 11 June 2006, 13:56:00 »

Sorry for maybe asking stupid questions, for I can not say yet, that I have a grasp on all that magical stuff.  


Quote:
But then you are going away from the idea of the "Idea", and how would you then define "raw magic", the altering of the "Idea"? Could not the "Idea" be defined as the Cár'áll and the altering of groups of ounia only changing parts of the overall idea? A complex idea often has a complex set of components.
„Idea“ as the „one Cár'áll“? That is going pretty far away from the original concept, do we want this? Raw magic as an alteration of the form itself would be non-existent.  How do you then define the individual, where is its border, if you take this „bag“ away?


For I would very much like to keep that model for the clerical magic in the way, Coren described it above. How do you then differ between the "one cár'áll" and the cár'áll of a single individual? Is all merging together? As all ounia are linked in someway within the Cár'áll IMHO, then yes I would say they are merged to an extent.
The same question here again, how does the individual differ from the „one cár'áll“ - it is part of it, but how can I differ one from the other? Is the sum of all „parts“ the whole, or is it more?

Is an entity just a assembly of ounia hold together with links? Well as an Ecua mage would only have to break the links down in a person to basically unmake them ... so yeah. What then about the differences between tables of different sizes and appearance, but nevertheless tables and tables and chairs? Alterations in the overall Cár'áll done by the hands of a person, people do this all the time with the simple act of breathing.
I don‘t understand this last sentence.

My last question is  - are we true to what is on the site and how the concept was intended to be? We are very careful  in other realms to respect what is written down, though of course some things have to be altered.

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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #43 on: 11 June 2006, 14:35:00 »

I am trying to remain as faithful to Arti's original design as possible when writing the guides (I have been cross-referencing all the discussion dating back to the times when the entries were first drafted as well as the relevant theory on the site). And I must express my agreement with Talia very strongly on this point - I am very frustrated when I see that every two months what I thougth of as the fundamentals of the Ximaxian system change drastically. Anything not updated in the last seven weeks should not instantly become "outdated" and useless/incorrect overnight. That said, I do think some of the entries we have on the site are a lot more confusing than they have to be owing to obscure explanations and philosophical babble (but then I am the last person to be criticizing this!)

My next attempt would be an essay on the nature, concept, various meanings and implications of this mysterious thing we keep calling the Carall when we all have different definitions in mind. That should make my side/stand on the theory clear I hope. Remember: this should be a short reference guide only! Sort of an orientation

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 6/10/06 22:40
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« Reply #44 on: 11 June 2006, 14:41:00 »

Also see the quote from Dasson I added to my quote-filled post above.

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"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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