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Author Topic: Distances in Caelereth  (Read 11965 times)
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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #15 on: 11 January 2007, 05:56:01 »

Actually, posting irrelevant and pointless things that have nothing to do with the topic is spamming and generally considered rude. Even if you made a new topic for it, just posting with no other reason then to post would still be spam.
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #16 on: 11 January 2007, 06:04:32 »

Yep, lukecash  - please contribute to a discussion or leave it. Spammers risk being banned. Posts were removed.
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« Reply #17 on: 11 January 2007, 06:17:10 »

Spam? I was just messing around.
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #18 on: 11 January 2007, 14:10:48 »

Could we maybe work out a small table - would be very useful for developers - which gives some typical or average travel times for different forms of medieval travel?  We've brought this topic up at least three times a year so far, and the same few facts get 'drug up' to try to calculate different requests.

It shouldn't be too difficult to work out from existing factoids, should it?

I did some of the research Rakshiri posted, and that was quite a few years ago, so I won't warrant its accuracy!  We should do some Googling and get a fresh list up!
Something like this.....

Adult male human, on foot, walking =     X  strals/hour
(we could then work out what a hobbit pace should be - slower - and an elven pace - faster!)
Adult male human, on foot, running =     X strals/hour, for up to X hours
Horseback, single mount =
Mounted courier with remounts =
Carriage
Goods Wagon
Ore barge
Riverboat
Fishing boat
Ducraer
Merchant ship
Sailing ship


Any other ideas?
;)
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Rakshiri
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« Reply #19 on: 11 January 2007, 18:09:06 »

Could we maybe work out a small table - would be very useful for developers - which gives some typical or average travel times for different forms of medieval travel?  We've brought this topic up at least three times a year so far, and the same few facts get 'drug up' to try to calculate different requests.

It shouldn't be too difficult to work out from existing factoids, should it?

I did some of the research Rakshiri posted, and that was quite a few years ago, so I won't warrant its accuracy!  We should do some Googling and get a fresh list up!
Something like this.....

Adult male human, on foot, walking =     X  strals/hour
(we could then work out what a hobbit pace should be - slower - and an elven pace - faster!)
Adult male human, on foot, running =     X strals/hour, for up to X hours
Horseback, single mount =
Mounted courier with remounts =
Carriage
Goods Wagon
Ore barge
Riverboat
Fishing boat
Ducraer
Merchant ship
Sailing ship

Any other ideas?
;)

Sadly I lost a comprehensive link displaying the travel speeds in the Roman empire. Was really helpful what good infrastructure in ancient times and medieval times could accomplish.

As a suggestion I'd cut down on the list items though. We cannot tell what speed a merchantship would make as it could be most likely a sailing ship but it's speed would depend on the cargo it is meant to carry and the amount of sail it can rise. For a sailing ship the amount of sail is as important as anything else so e.g. a one masted cargo ship would by default be slower than a three masted one  aka three masts allowed a bigger ship with more cargo to reach higher top speeds (weight <> sail ratio plus hull shape determined how quick a ship could be).

I'd make it more like:
- Man on foot on a trail
- on a road
- wagon (though usually pulled by oxen and as quick as a man )
- horserider on the road (in the wilderness barely faster than a man on foot)
- horserider with sparehorses
- horseCarriage(would need some kind of road)
- riverbarge
- barge (anything one masted a bigger fisherboat would be )
- galley (big ship propelled by oars)
- ...

Though I think for ships we really need to accumulate the ship types, there were vast differences in performance and usage between a cog, a Holk, a sloop, ...

Here also comes the tech level into play. Frigates are nice and dandy but they really reached their peak in the 18th century, medieval or Rennaissance ships would be galleys, galeasse, Karracken (German, though spelling is wrong) and maybe early galeons (there is again a vast difference between the early types and those used a century or two later)
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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #20 on: 11 January 2007, 18:37:02 »

Barges were generally going at about walking speed, either being pulled by horses (walking on riverside of course) or driven forth by poles (depending on the size) and only used on rivers for transportation. Fisher boats are different from that.
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Lori Lo
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« Reply #21 on: 11 January 2007, 18:50:04 »

Rakshiri?

http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/travel2.html

http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php?topic=9239.15
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« Reply #22 on: 11 January 2007, 23:16:35 »

Oooh, an entry on 'carracks' would be useful!  Or, actually, an entry on 'Ships and Boats of Santharia' which lists the major types, including galleys, merchantmen, carracks, sloops, and so on...

And yes, a distinction would have to be made, or guessed at, between 'wilderness' travel - probably on an existing trail - and 'road' travel, using the excellent linkages of the Santharian kingdom.

And Talia - you have so many wonderful little tidbits of data tucked away!  That's a great link - thank you!
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Gean Firefeet
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« Reply #23 on: 11 January 2007, 23:54:50 »

Hmmm, I see this quickly turning into one of those fancy new 'team projects', right? *winks* Maybe we should try and finish it this time!

Ok, to summarize"
We need lists of:
  • Possible means of transportation
    Different circumstances adjusting travel speed (things like weather, remounts, terrain etc.)
  • Determining both hourly and daily amount of distance covered, based on mode of transport and circumstances and possible hours of travel daily (maybe via some formula, e.g. a basic speed and then mulitply by x for bad weather and by y for offroad traffic, depending on mode of transport etc.).
  • Making these calculations for the different races.
  • Making these calculation for different levels of technology or for different eras.

Here come the lists: so far we have:

Transportation:

By land
On foot
On horseback
On muleback
On ponyback
On Aj'nuvicback
By wagon/ox
By wagon/horse
By carriage (numbers of horses?)

By river
Barge/ox
Barge/horse
Barge/poles
Barge/one sail

By sea
Sloop
Ducraer (east Santharia)
Barge
Fijor (Avennorians)
Barek (Avennorians)
Triton (Avennorians)
Merchantship
Galley (Aca-Santerran?)

By air
Pigeon for posts
Any airtravel for us bipeds? Gryphonback anyone?

Circumstances

By land
Terrain: Desert, Tundra, Mountain, Hills, Forest, Jungle, Road, Trail
Weather: Wind? Rain: vision, storm etc.
Remounts: For horses, oxes, Aj'nuvics, ponies, mules and the like.

By river
Weather: Wind for sailing ships, terrain for pullers

By sea
Weather: Wind, standard winds and streams, Storms
Manpower: enough crew to steer the ship, number of manned oars

By air
Weather

We need to determine all the variables, the factors with which to multiply for each circumstance and then we can even design a calculator for it  grin Anyone more sources to get these factors up or more means of transportation/circumstances to add? I'll edit them in...
« Last Edit: 12 January 2007, 00:07:08 by Gean Firefeet » Logged

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Irid alMenie
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« Reply #24 on: 12 January 2007, 00:01:36 »

When a river is used for barges, there's usually a small road next to it on either side for the pullers, so the terrain is usually not very hard to go, although going uphill or downhill might make a big difference (therefore, going from the port to a town by the river = uphill, going from the town by the river to the port = downhill.) Still, this normally doesn't make all that much of a difference, as the place where a river is broad enough for a barge, the land is rather flat. At least here in Belgium, which is really the only kind of river I know where a barge can go.

Just my two sans :)
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Gean Firefeet
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« Reply #25 on: 12 January 2007, 00:10:38 »

Sounds good to me. Terrain edited out for barges. I know at least one other country with rivers wide enough for barges and flat land  cool
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« Reply #26 on: 12 January 2007, 00:25:08 »

Yes, well, but if I say Belgium, the Netherlands can generally be included as well :p At least geographically, Flanders and the Netherlands are quite similar. I even wanted to add it, I just kind of forgot ;)
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« Reply #27 on: 12 January 2007, 02:02:51 »

Quote from: Gean Firefeet

Sloop
Ducraer (east Santharia)
Barge
Fijor (Avennorians)
Barek (Avennorians)
Triton (Avennorians)
Merchantship
Galley (Aca-Santerran?)


I'd try to keep all ships pre-galeon, for the Santerrans I had a carrack kind of ship in mind but obviously as most commited and largest naval power I'd like some technological superiority in that field though one might consider more closely how they are superior.
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Gean Firefeet
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« Reply #28 on: 12 January 2007, 02:29:04 »

As in these kind of ships?

Sounds good to me. Maybe some of the naval experts can take a look at the list here and see what kind of ships they would like to have included?
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« Reply #29 on: 12 January 2007, 03:14:31 »

Hmm...I don't know how much the introduction of cannons influenced the design of European ships, but it's probably a good idea to take that into consideration.  Santharian ships might well have diverged from European designs some time ago, due to differences in weapon technology and quite likely, different needs as well. 
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