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Author Topic: The Northern Bay: Faen - Aesteran Florence - Thareliath - Ivyieth - Loreney  (Read 3959 times)
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Rakshiri
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« on: 09 January 2007, 00:46:07 »

Coren: I've split the Kaerath topic and moved the discussion relating to the northern bay here. I'm also adding a copy of the map for easier referencing



May I make a suggestion (given that this place is still marked with question marks) concerning the northern islands?

Supposedly the Isles of R'unor lie north/northeast of there as part of an archipelago. Aside of Milkengrad and Aca Santerra they were meant to be the third large naval power on the western seas, in contrast to the others they however do not depend on ships but rather have an astonishing fauna that helps them facilitate sea travel entirely differently: namely very large sea turtles on whose shells they build into and ontop the stuff for their crews.
They would have a close connection to their beasts which in turn also complicates things as sea turtles are not as quickly built as ships so while having outstanding vessels (living beasts) at their disposal they probably do not travel as numerously the ocean as Aca Santerra would who is their greatest rival.

I could also imagine they would feel like natural allies to the merfolk ...

Based on this the Northern waters would be their turf and so they might have claimed some of those islands or established themselves as overlords of tributaries in the region.



Further suggestion: You have an area marked Venice/Florence. Mind to move that further east to the peninsula with already existing cities of Escandia and Lahssar. I would leave the nomadic tribes some more breathing space by keeping that area undeveloped (from a infrastructural view) so the Moredein Julsten is also belonging to them and the Sarthera people only have now and then some kind of control over the people there.
« Last Edit: 31 January 2007, 05:34:30 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: 27 January 2007, 07:19:15 »

I will try to integrate the R'unorians! That turtle idea is fantastic - I didn't know that before! I will need some time to figure out what exactly should be going on in the area though.


I must disagree on the nomadic tribes point though. They basically have the largest 'turf' in the west anyway (aside from the Inami- but those are mostly wastelands anyway): from Orcal to River Vaenath. (The blueish Nybelriod area in the middle is only very very loosely in the city's area of influence. Nomads pass /camp over it the whole time. And Nybelriod simply does not have the clout to do anything about it. It only has a few 'outposts' along the area. The whole purpose of that region is to neighbour Sarthera and the Inner Sea trade really)  Isn't that enough?
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« Reply #2 on: 30 January 2007, 03:54:42 »

The turtle idea is just something I thought about to give these R'unorians a different edge. Currently they are also described as having orc blood, I'd rather make that into a myth by them having the habit of painting themselves in green or blue colors for some purpose and people taking that as their skin color (pretty similar to the stupid 19th century race theories with Chinese supposedly being yellow and Indians red, they liked to paint themselves that wa!)

Venice and Florence infers to me very advanced and powerful citystates and those would spread their influence and need some kind of agriculture to sustain themselves. If the idea is something smaller then I don't object. I was only thinking about incoporating the area of Loreney into the picture where we already have supopsedly important and thus far the only cities in the north.
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« Reply #3 on: 30 January 2007, 06:34:52 »

Is Loreney technically part of the West? ::oogle:: I just assumed that was Smith's domain!

Is there a reason why we can't have both though? (btw only the darker aqua is really part of their 'area' - with the supporting farms and all. The lighter blue is what they sometimes can claim. They want to extend their realms further south to dominate the Inner Sea trade as well but constant struggle with Sarthera prevents that.

Couldn't a rivalry provide a nice interplay between these two city-state clusters seeking dominion over the norhern bay? (add to that the presence of R'unorians and Nybelmer)
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« Reply #4 on: 30 January 2007, 21:38:49 »

If Smith has a different idea about the area I suggested, forget what I said but given I have not seen anything indicating it and that Smith is as busy as I am I kind of doubt it.

With Venice in mind I'd propose a trade empire just like they built during the 14th-16th century where they controlled vast coastal regions in Dalmatia, Greece and even the black sea as well as a big array of islands. I'd however keep these leading cities(or city) away from Sarthera as one prequesite of the Venice rise was that Northern Italy was secluded from outside interference (the next two big kingdoms, France and Germany had to cross the Alps to meddle in the area thus it was always a big affair for them to try and claim these regions)

I'd kind of prefer it if the main cities were in the area of Loreney but alot of strongholds and trade ports being erected where you proposed to access tradelanes to Sarthera (and from there possibly to Zhun). My main thinking is that if Sarthera was to strengthen its position they would naturally get this stretch of coast under their control as they own the hinterland so to speak (given that rural populations in medieval times vastly outnumbered urban ones this would imply superiority in various aspects) and can coerce any port to submit to them in some form.

Or maybe a bit differently there is one city located at the river at the coast which was founded by the others further east but now is an on and off trade metropole sometimes obliberated by Sarthera sometimes independant enacting control over this stretch of land. I'd just make those cities somehow related. Kind of some havens of human civilization clinging to the coastlines there (which doesn't imply they have to like each other).

Coren: See my comments below (sorry for hijacking your posts by the way - I just want to structure the discussion from the start so we don't end up with another of those long winded ones that no one can keep track of and thus leads to no concrete results


just an idea I recently had (if there is no concept for Sarthera, yet). How about a human kingdom that is ruled by an elven elite? For some reason we don't have such a thing yet although it would seem natural that a longerliving species with some remarkable abilities in magic would be more capable in establishing stable dynasties (as one ruler in the dynasty would last for centuries). They wouldn't quite fit  common elven schemes either as they are for one dominating humans, but it is considered a benefit.
The "Golden Elves" Baián'hem or "The glowing elves" Quaelarhem or something like that would come to mind.

If I missed any ongoing works on Sarthera I'm sorry and we can see for and if this concept works some other place...



some nitpicks:
Can we avoid the usage of "Nybel" for the most part? I find it sounds a bit strange to be used multiple times when the continent is named like that. Maybe restrict it to some place names and let's invent some different names for those tribes. If we go from a Sarvonian perspective they'd call the Santerrans and Korweynites Nybel-something because they live in Nybelmar and they have the most contact with them1.

Coren: I've addressed this issue in the parent thread.
« Last Edit: 31 January 2007, 06:34:58 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: 31 January 2007, 06:25:46 »

Quote
With Venice in mind I'd propose a trade empire just like they built during the 14th-16th century where they controlled vast coastal regions in Dalmatia, Greece and even the black sea as well as a big array of islands

Umm, you've lost me there... I thought you didn't want them to be too great?

cf
Quote
Venice and Florence infers to me very advanced and powerful citystates and those would spread their influence and need some kind of agriculture to sustain themselves. If the idea is something smaller then I don't object.

Turning to the other issues:

Aesteran Venice/Florence

What I MUST have (ie no compromise areas)
1) After the Breaking (Year of Darkness) a lot of the Krean were disillusioned with the Krath Empire and the whole High Temple business and self-exiled themselves from the destructed/accursed lands. This caused a major exodus towards the north (basically these Krean from various parts of Krath snaking all the way through what was now the zhunite desert, vanenath plains and further up towards Sarthera).

Somewhere around Sarthera, the whole "Krean" (united) ideal shatters into pieces: the Lillivear and the Aestera go their separate ways. The Lillivear continue all the way north to Kaerath: Some settle in the drifting woods, merging into the locals there to create mira's tribe. Others settle in the two forests I marked to the west. (And a small group actually never really settle again - in time forming the Efferdita, the Krean rovers.)  The Aestera too must go somewhere

The bottomline here is: So long as I can keep the exodus and so long as the Aestera end up settling somewhere in that area I am contented. It doesn't absolutely have to be the area I marked.

2) However, I do need to make Ivyieth special, putting some further mysterious stuff there. So until we come up with ideas that part should be left 'unoccupied' (that's why I didn't colour it in on the map)

3) The key elements of the Venice/Florence allusion:

- I want them to be city states instead of a unified kingdom. More room for political and economic plots. Also nothing too strong.

- The Venice reference alludes mainly to the structure of their cities. I do want to keep them very "water-based" - with lots of canals and aquaducts. However that's just an atmospheric 'cue' - what I want to avoid at all costs is a one to one replica of venetian model.

- The Aestera (of the ancient Krean) were reknown for their water magic and architecture so that is the direction these new aesteran cities should incline towards. (however, a new name has to be found for them as I intend this splinter group to have evolved into something culturally and architecturally different from the original Aestera over the centuries).

Also, their control over water and architecture has to be significant so that in time they can give birth to my 'Floating Cities' (and nope, I will not reveal what I have in mind for quite some time to come. Let's just say they are the next splinter group (what do you call these splinter groups btw?))

4) They must have the premiere 'administration/politics' university in the west. A cool idea I had for them was: the Krean's main 'export' was its professionals and mage architects were the tradational "human resources" of the Aestera. However these Venice ones would have developed a new export: Their bureaucrats and administrative ministers etc (ie viziers, embassadors, government officials). So many of the surrounding kingdoms instead of having to raise their own officials and constantly watch out for plots to overthrow them simply "hire" the key ministers from here.

Of course that means they should be percieved as the most efficient/shrewd administators in western Nybelmar and the local kings etc must posit absolute trust in them. So they should have a reputation for being 'straight as an arrow' as Pretchet puts it: incorruptable and totally detached from local power politics (although those employed as political advisors to the kings would be expected to keep an eye on these things).

Why on earth would the monarchs/rulers choose to employ these Aesterans instead of having their own officials? Because they wouldn't have to constantly watch their backs. It would also mean a greater degree of stability in administration: Somewhat akin to the Civil Service in the UK; instead of having each ruling (the successful overthrowers) party engendering a total overhaul of the administrative offices a trusted, competent body of officers will continue. Major time duplication and disruptions prevented that way. However, unlike the UK system since these Aesterans work under a "contractual" frame with the country, each subsequent ruler would have to refresh their 'employment contracts'. Thus we won't have a Yes Minister situation, with the civil servants weaving their own secret agenda / policy decisions against the grain of the people in power.

Of course this arrangement can give rise to some interesting rumours about these Aesterans being the 'invisible puppeteers' behind the continents' leaders etc in some resentful / cynic quarters.


Do you think this could be made to work? Or is it too unrealistic? What  preconditions would have to be satisfied to make this possible? (neutrality, a very cerebral culture, great education?)


SO I don't really mind if they are politically significant or not. They need not be too powerful. They just have to be rich and sophisticated enough to have produced all these marvelous things I had in mind for them.


5) They must be percieved as absolutely neutral for the scheme to work. Hmm.. does that mean that the sea-domination/ rivalry with R'unor et al cannot take place? That would be a good reason to keep Loreney as the other major power. These Aesterans should simply go about their business - maybe even making money as envoys/traders between the two?

I think after the Breaking they would have distanced themselves from the 'world domination', grand political schemes etc of the Krean (which owed more to the Lilivear's ambitions) anyway. So the neutrality could have been the 'founding principle' of their cities (maybe why the Lillivear and the aestera splintered during the exodus? The Lillivear bitter about losing everything and looking for ways to reclaim their glory but the Aesterans wanting nothing more with grand plans that in the end leaves all their work and the continent in ashes)
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« Reply #6 on: 05 February 2007, 03:51:14 »

Umm, you've lost me there... I thought you didn't want them to be too great?

What I meant was that Venice and e.g. Carthage had a vast network of trading ports but were limited to their own city concerning imminent power. My proposal would be to consider having the originating cities (the powerful cities) be in Loreney and e.g. the Isles, while they also control the coast which you marked as belonging to them.




Quote
1)
The bottomline here is: So long as I can keep the exodus and so long as the Aestera end up settling somewhere in that area I am contented. It doesn't absolutely have to be the area I marked.

That's quite a big move for settled people. Why were the Zhunite cities not refugee enough for them and they went also north through a desert and wilderness to more wilderness?

Was this all Krean (which I'd consider unlikely) or only a faction (who were maybe persecuted by the other Krean or successors for their worldviews). My main suggestion would be to give some more propellant that the breaking up of the empire. This would not cause such a distant emigration. As pointed out there are plenty of cities outside the immediate empire that would secede from it and be a safe haven for disillusioned people. Adding something that did affect those particular people to do run even farther would be helpful.


Quote
Also, their control over water and architecture has to be significant so that in time they can give birth to my 'Floating Cities' (and nope, I will not reveal what I have in mind for quite some time to come. Let's just say they are the next splinter group (what do you call these splinter groups btw?))

Depends. They either consider themselves an independant tribe/faction/clan/party.

Quote
4) They must have the premiere 'administration/politics' university in the west. A cool idea I had for them was: the Krean's main 'export' was its professionals and mage architects were the tradational "human resources" of the Aestera. However these Venice ones would have developed a new export: Their bureaucrats and administrative ministers etc (ie viziers, embassadors, government officials). So many of the surrounding kingdoms instead of having to raise their own officials and constantly watch out for plots to overthrow them simply "hire" the key ministers from here.

Cannot quite understand when who exported what kind of professionals. The thing I don't quite see, yet, is any kingdoms in the vincinty that would have the structural size and necessity to "import" professionals. Also if one looks at history foreigners are as likely to cause a coup if they are put into power as friendlies.

I don't know, just a thought but maybe those citystates are actually run or were originally founded by different people and your Krean descendants were accepted by the former population because of their usefullness and started to fill those roles as you describe.

E.g. in the Roman empire Greeks and Jews did certain jobs the Romans either found distasteful or at which those others excelled at.


Quote
Of course that means they should be percieved as the most efficient/shrewd administators in western Nybelmar and the local kings etc must posit absolute trust in them. So they should have a reputation for being 'straight as an arrow' as Pretchet puts it: incorruptable and totally detached from local power politics (although those employed as political advisors to the kings would be expected to keep an eye on these things).

if you are in power you become an object of local power politics or a player. I don't quite see what would keep them from being the same can of worms like local ones. At least among local one's you can select family or people you know.

Quote
Do you think this could be made to work? Or is it too unrealistic? What  preconditions would have to be satisfied to make this possible? (neutrality, a very cerebral culture, great education?)

The way you outline them I'd see them as a minority living among other people. because of qualification they might make natural advisors but being a minority wouldn't be considered harmful for the power balance. I do not see kings of any kind importing foreigners to any place of power though. If they are a minority and thus maybe dependant of the goodwill of the rulers this would be vastly different.

This could play very well with them being refugees.


Quote
5) They must be percieved as absolutely neutral for the scheme to work. Hmm.. does that mean that the sea-domination/ rivalry with R'unor et al cannot take place? That would be a good reason to keep Loreney as the other major power. These Aesterans should simply go about their business - maybe even making money as envoys/traders between the two?

I think after the Breaking they would have distanced themselves from the 'world domination', grand political schemes etc of the Krean (which owed more to the Lilivear's ambitions) anyway. So the neutrality could have been the 'founding principle' of their cities (maybe why the Lillivear and the aestera splintered during the exodus? The Lillivear bitter about losing everything and looking for ways to reclaim their glory but the Aesterans wanting nothing more with grand plans that in the end leaves all their work and the continent in ashes)

If they own land, cities, resources I do not see how they can be or be seen as neutral, esspecially when owning a significant portion of any region (e.g. in the current outline it would be naturally in Sarthera's interest to gain control over them), if considering R'unor even more.


I don't know how conflicting the notion of them being only a minority living on someone else's turf is to your idea but I kind of see that as the "smoothest" concept of people fleeing from their homeland trying to settle in a foreign country, esspecially if they are not to be considered a threat by anyone. If they are a subculture (so to speak) living after its own inherited code (just like Jews did in the Roman empire after the Diaspora) imo they wouldn't be perceived as a threat by anyone as they wouldn't have a kingdom/city/realm which they would put over their employer's interests and as a minority they wouldn't be as badly affected by any conquests or changes in power. In short wether Aca-Santerra, R'unor or someone else would be the topdog in the region wouldn't affect wether any of them would hire them for their services, actually if displaced anyhow they would be more obliged to move with their families or in small communities to serve their new masters.

Just a thought.
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« Reply #7 on: 06 February 2007, 03:30:26 »

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Somewhere around Sarthera, the whole "Krean" (united) ideal shatters into pieces: the Lillivear and the Aestera go their separate ways.


And what about those of Krean blood (mixed)?
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« Reply #8 on: 06 February 2007, 22:48:34 »

people deciding to go seperate ways is a political decision, not so much a ethnic one (for some reason the rift can however be along ethnic lines e.g. because the leaders of these subgroups are at odds with each other. Mixed blood wouldn't matter they would simply(well, it wouldn't be simple for them but they'd just like anyone else have to choose ) decide where they belong more
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« Reply #9 on: 07 February 2007, 04:03:15 »

So which ever tribe they felt more aligned with they would leave with?
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« Reply #10 on: 07 February 2007, 22:03:16 »

You would have to ask Coren but what I meant is that they would decide individually where they saw themselves and maybe some even went an entirely different way because they didn't feel at home with either group.
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« Reply #11 on: 09 February 2007, 19:30:18 »

So which ever tribe they felt more aligned with they would leave with?

Quite likely.... Although i can imagine cases where someone that looked verry Aesteran, but felt quite Lilliveran could get into trouble like this.. but that is a rather small portion of the Krean that went on the Exodus, and they would probably just fade from history's pages..
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« Reply #12 on: 09 February 2007, 21:40:08 »

*Decipher hates the tendency of rather important things fading from history*

Then again, maybe most of the mixed blood remained and made up the lost ones...
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #13 on: 10 February 2007, 03:51:09 »

One thing to bear in mind is that whenever one writes about these things they are bound to be sweeping generalisations - it would be trite to say "The Aestera settled in X" and add "But of course there are exceptions" each time... That is a given I suppose.

That said, I believe Koldar is probably right: People would tend to follow the group with whose world views they felt more in harmony.

Also: the mixed blood Krean among the exodus (probably) settled in the Drifting Woods! That's what we mentioned in the entry ;P

Also note: When I say "Lillivear" or "Aestera" in the northern peninsula, current Nybelmarians would NOT regard them as Aesteran or Lillivear (or even Krean) - 6000 years have passed since the exodus!! They surely would have evolved a completely different culture by now.



*has in mind a particular comment (rather unjustified? :P) about megalomania and trying to invade the whole continent ;) *

I made the reference for development purposes - to have a number of tribes over Nybelmar who supposedly can trace their heritage to a common origin. Sort of a 'Mother Tribe' idea - afterall the whole concept behind the Ancient Krean was to have them represent the Atlantis of Nybelmar/Caelereth (that is why I do exaggerate in my entries ;) )

Hmm, maybe I should write a few lines on the current 'Krean tribes' (ie not only the Lost Ones but also those who claim to have Krean origins, even though they no longer possess anything quintessentially Krean) and post it on the board for dev reference?



PS: @Koldar: I will address your suggestions later, I hope that is okay? :)
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« Reply #14 on: 10 February 2007, 03:57:49 »

Coren...you seem to have a habit of telling me somewhat random pieces of information that make me realise things that you have told me before that I haven't noticed....
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