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Author Topic: Quick Clarification Requested  (Read 6514 times)
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Fox
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« on: 10 August 2007, 05:08:34 »

As I'm just getting back into things and trying to give magic a full whirl again (I think I have a better understanding of it than I did years ago), I had a quick magic question I was hoping could get clarified by any magic-oriented person more knowledgeable than I.


In relation to a person/object/etc's Car'all, is there a hard 'barrier' separating it from other Car'all/the air/etc (like a bag, for instance)? As all ouns are linked to one another (afaik), what determines whether something is an object or not? Is there a true separation or is an 'object' simply a highly concentrated amount of specific ouns (IE, a rock is only a rock in separation to the air around it because it is a space consisting of a high percentage of active Earth ouns)?


In addition, if there is a barrier, is that barrier capable of being breached by non-magical means? (I'd assume so, such as eating) I was thinking about reagents while responding to Shansi in the other thread, and was wondering if you could actually bypass a spell's Sphere III design by physically applying new ouns manually and then initializing them via Sphere II? (IE, using your own ouns to cause a change in someone else's Car'all would be Sphere III, as you are introducing the new ouns to their Car'all, but if you were to instead, say, cut your finger and then drip the blood onto the target physically, could you use Sphere II casting methods on the target instead?) Or do you still need to use Sphere III techniques to introduce the reagent's ouns to the target?

In other words: Can you add new ouns to a target Car'all by non-magical means without having to touch on Sphere III techniques? (thus, a touch-type spell would be Sphere II because, by touching the target, you are temporarily linking your individual Car'allia together?)
« Last Edit: 10 August 2007, 05:16:47 by Fox » Logged
Helvíl Ypherén
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« Reply #1 on: 10 August 2007, 05:16:59 »

Yes I am also bewildered by that...

But with your question about the barrier between the ouns of a rock and an air... I think the principles of ouns are just like atoms and molecules. They are connected to each other to create an object. Like a rock has atoms connected to each other in such a way that it is solid but these atoms is not connected to the air atoms. This is how I understand the ouns... If I am wrong I would be very happy to be corrected :)
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #2 on: 10 August 2007, 05:37:44 »

There is, in theory, just one car'all. the divisions are made by the way we view the world. However, car'all may define physical form, but physical form maintains car'all. in other words, things separate themselves as individual objects by being such an object in the first place. Sphere three magic is powerfull enough to overpower this 'ambition' to resist change and alter the very composition of the car'all.
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Fox
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« Reply #3 on: 10 August 2007, 09:18:21 »

Basically what I'm wondering, is if the following is possible/correct (I know the Xeua links (white soor, blue ahm) are likely incorrect, I wasn't really going for accuracy there, just the general idea):





In this, I am assuming that Sphere II can allow the shift of an oun from one Car'all to another through physical touch, assuming that physical contact essentially 'merges' two auras together. While Sphere III allows the shift of an oun from one Car'all to another without necessitating physical touch.

I am working on an update for Water Extraction right now and this issue is coming up in whether or not to classify it as a Sphere II spell or as a Sphere III spell.


Basically... is switching an oun from one Car'all to another a simple task of movement? Or is Sphere III necessary in order to properly merge the new oun into the Car'all? If it is the latter, then that supports the idea that two Car'all are two separate things from each other (a person crossing from one country to another and thus requiring all the proper paper work and such (representative of Sphere III)), while the former assumes that there is no actual difference between two Car'all (IE, you build a bridge from one building to another, and suddenly you have, essentially, a single building, since people can walk easily from one side to the other until that bridge is removed).

From as far as I understand, all ouns have a permanent link to every other oun, which cannot be broken and cannot be formed as they are already formed, thus magic is all in manipulating the various links. This would support the idea that Sphere III is not required to move an oun from one Car'all to another, because there is no breaking and reforming of links, just the location of the oun in relation to the other ounia.
« Last Edit: 10 August 2007, 09:30:45 by Fox » Logged
Fox
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« Reply #4 on: 10 August 2007, 09:34:04 »

In other words (meh, I'm not explaining myself well enough here):

When you eat something, you are moving its physical oun into your Car'all to thus give you energy. If you are reading a book to learn something, you are imprinting its memories and knowledges into your mind, its spiritual oun into your Car'all.

Is Sphere II a magical means of doing that, still requiring a direct on the spot consumption (touching, etc)?

Is Sphere III like getting the energy of an apple, but without actually eating the apple? Or implanting the knowledge of a book into your mind, without actually reading the book?


If I am wrong here, please correct me. :)
« Last Edit: 10 August 2007, 09:38:15 by Fox » Logged
Twen Araerwen
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« Reply #5 on: 10 August 2007, 09:49:35 »

Your question inspires these ideas in me Rheine.
Example 1:
You take two burning torches lay them side by side so that their flames become one. What you have is a single large concentration of fire ounia at one end with separate sticks stemming off. In essence you have created a single car'all with the flames, only due to the fact of fires property of animation and the fires consumption of mutual air.
Example2
On the other hand .... you take two rocks and push them tightly together. Are they in a similar position as the above mentioned torches, of course they are. Yet the property of stillness and solidity of earth keep the rocks car'all separate and intact. Only by destroying and mixing the rocks as gravel would combine their car'all ..... outside of magical influence.
Example3
Wind on the other hand with the property of movement is in an ever changing state within the overall car'all.

SphereIII allows a mage to move and add ounia within a targets car'all. But this phenomenon occurs naturally as well. A mage moves these ounia through willpower, changing an ouns placement beyond normal means.
 
I would think the ability to combine a car'all and ounia physically is dependent upon the state the ounia are in within the car'all. IMHO I hope these words of a humble apprentice helps you gleam some answers.

« Last Edit: 10 August 2007, 10:56:30 by Twén Aråerwén » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: 10 August 2007, 13:30:29 »

Interesting question.   grin

My opinion is that there isn't any barrier separating one car'all from another, or anything that truly defines a 'border' between them at all.  Car'allia are distinguished by the relative strengths of the xeua links.  For example, in a rock, the ounia of the rock will mostly be strongly linked to each other, but not particularly strongly in most cases to the ounia of the air around the rock.  Likewise, the ounia that makes up the car'all of the air would be strongly linked to each other, but only very weakly to the ounia of the rock.  If that's not clear, I could try making a picture to illustrate. 

Quote
From as far as I understand, all ouns have a permanent link to every other oun, which cannot be broken and cannot be formed as they are already formed, thus magic is all in manipulating the various links.

This is correct, as far as I know.  However, while the links cannot, as defined, truly be destroyed, they can be weakened to the point where they are negligible (which for convenience we would call breaking the link).  This is the state most are naturally in. 

Regarding Sphere 2, my idea was that the closer two ounia are, the stronger the link between them will tend to be, so bringing two ounia closer might cause the link between them to strengthen.  Pressing your finger to an object won't really merge two car'allia, but at least some of the links between them will become stronger.  So I guess it could perhaps be considered a partial merging.  There is probably some variation between the elements here as well; as Twen points out, things dominated by Earth don't seem to be affected much here.  As for Water Extraction, I don't really think it'll help much, except that a stronger link with the target car'allia might make it a little easier to manipulate. 
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xerampelinae deicida
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« Reply #7 on: 10 August 2007, 15:41:53 »

I'd say yes other wise if object didn't contain their own car'all they couldn't be used for magic.

Yes to the 2nd one too otherwise
ice enchantment
wouldn't work.
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #8 on: 14 August 2007, 06:41:21 »

(see Mina's Shielding Wind's thread/spell discussion)  Mina did a pretty good job of explaining it IMHO.  The car'allia of objects are definatly distinct for, as Xera pointed out, pin-pointing a spell would be nearly impossible.

On the other hand, the Ahm and Soor links between an object and its environment create an interaction and fusion between their individual car’alls at a distinct point between the two, where the properties of each individual fade and the interaction between the two object become pronounced.

The severity of this meeting will, as I believe Twen stated, vary greatly depending upon the properties of the ounia present.  For example, an interaction with air will almost always be present, while with less animated elements, such as fire and water, the two require relatively close contact.  Finally with earth, it is nearly impossible to combine the two without using magical means or smelting ect.

When multiple elements are involved, it is my belief that this difference is far more pronounced.  For example, when a rock is held over a flame, the properties(and thus the car’all) of the point of contact is significantly different than that of each individual object. 
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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #9 on: 20 August 2007, 02:12:55 »

I think it would depend. Car'all can be altered by everyday things. Heating up an object strengthens Fire ounia links, like sphere I. Heating up one end of a metal bar will create a reactions similar to sphere II (heat spreading over the entire object). Burning something removes Fire ounia from an object for example (it becomes less flamable).

Bordering car'allia clearly have an influence on each other. Sunlight will warm up rocks, the cold breeze cool them down. I doubt touch would allow for sphere II transferring of ounia, but it certainly would make sphere III transfers easier.

Where does one border end and another start? If you throw salt in water, does it have one or two car'allia? I guess that could result in some interesting discussions for Ximaxians :)
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #10 on: 20 August 2007, 08:37:23 »

Why should they have borders?  The car'all of one object is linked to that of its surroundings, thus they have no definite border.  The way I see it, they mold together at a point of contact, there-in creating a "new" car'all at the"point of meeting".  Using your salt and water example, originally the two objects are seperate, but by using a physical means, you "force" a strengthening and overlap between the two which creates your salt water with all of its own, unique properties.
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« Reply #11 on: 21 August 2007, 03:10:46 »

You can make a clear distinction between water and air, so there's a border somewhere. That's not to say those borders couldn't blur or even disappear.
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #12 on: 21 August 2007, 03:52:41 »

Yup.  That was basically what I was trying to say, though I think that the borders would be readily recongnizable.
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Fox
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« Reply #13 on: 21 August 2007, 13:06:46 »

You can make a clear distinction between water and air, so there's a border somewhere. That's not to say those borders couldn't blur or even disappear.

Can the act of applying reagents to a target in anticipation of a spell cause the ounia from the reagent to mold with the Car'all of the target, allowing the mage to then manipulate the reagent's energies as part of the target's energy?

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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #14 on: 22 August 2007, 22:51:59 »

Wouldn't that mean that the car'all of the regent would have to completely disassemble and then reassemble to match that of the target?  IMHO, that would require the Archschools and that low leveled magi shouldn't be working with that type of magic.
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