* 
Welcome Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?


*
gfxgfx Home Forum Help Search Login Register   gfxgfx
gfx gfx
gfx
Pages: [1] 2
Print
Author Topic: The Religion of Dragons  (Read 9885 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Morcaanan
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 184



View Profile
« on: 17 September 2007, 01:43:37 »

*spends a week building a small fortress and hiring mages to protect himself from possible repercussions for proposing this*

*ahem*

Yes, I know that some things about my precious Drakes, such as the language of Dragons, are controversial subjects, but this has been turning in my brain for weeks now.

I have a link, here, which should help get me started - look at the stuff in Lime Greenish colour.

The idea behind this religion is that, at one time at least, it was exclusive to the Dragons, the Adamant's being at the center of this belief system; they are said to have god-like powers, and it's obvious from what has been written about them that they may very well have considered themselves as such (i.e., Ol’dém’bréy was affronted that a human would dare even address him directly). I don't think it's unreasonable to think that intelligent Drakes would worship the Adamant Dragons.

An additional possibility I had in mind is that a cult has developed along similar lines amongst other races, such as humans and orcs - note, it did not necessarily evolve from the actual Dragon's religion, the two would simply be similar enough that outsiders could not help but draw the connection.
This cult would be irrespective of race, and have its own set of clerics; such clerics would have rudimentary knowledge of the Dragon tongue, but such knowledge would be held in awe by those lower on the ladder in the cult. Those clerics with this knowledge could cast magic, if in rough and/or dangerous forms - which in turn, is going to require the development of Dragon Language and possibly a magic system.

That's the idea in a nutshell...

*prepares for the assault*
Logged

Morcaanan - also known as Morc, Korim, Scales, A-13, Dearest Brother, PJ, Prime Minister, and various other random titles and honoraries.
Artimidor Federkiel
Administrator
*****

Gained Aura: 538
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 23.091



View Profile Homepage
« Reply #1 on: 17 September 2007, 02:22:33 »

Yes. In my point of view this concept as it is sketched here is a very logical conclusion to the reorganisation of dragons. The elements of dragon magic, language, personification of dragons and of a dragon-cult, that keeps this all alive, all have their place in here, also the position of the Adamants is strenthened by making them God(-like) creatures. I guess with what we had on the site and how it was always hinted on here and there leads in exactly this direction, so in my personal point of view that's indeed how it should work.

P.S. With that (I assume more unofficial) cult established there might also be interesting controversies in Ximax regarding dragon magic, definitely an interesting counterpoint.
Logged



"Between the mind that plans and the hands that build there must be a mediator, and this must be the heart." -- Maria (Metropolis)
Decipher Ziron
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 55
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 2.574


General Genius of Remarkable Modesty


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: 17 September 2007, 03:07:17 »

I personally like the idea....Dragons are constantly being referred to as a race rather than a beast...and they are sentient...So it only seems logical that they would have some features of the main races...Religion, Tradition, Values....a government even...

Although my vote probably doesn't count for much...I heartily agree!

Decipher
Logged

Laugh ,and the World Laughs with you.

Weep, and you weep alone.
Takór Salenár
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 358


View Profile
« Reply #3 on: 17 September 2007, 03:18:15 »

My first thought was - how could we know of this religion? I mean, more than some rumours?(same with language - if nobody speaks it today, then we can't know much about it)

However, if you want to introduce this cult, then this might solve a problem. We would only know the belief of these people and what they think is the Dragon's religion about.
So, no direct knowledge, but kind of intermediated. But then again a problem arises - most of what they know is secret, you say yourself you have to climb up the ranks in their hierarchy to be introduce to their knowledge, about the religion, the magic, the language. How will this knowledge be delivered to the compendíum and the people  interested in these things?

As with Altario's organisation of people who try to design bloodlines - there has to a traitor, or scripts be found which reveal these secret things to the public.

???
Logged
Morcaanan
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 184



View Profile
« Reply #4 on: 17 September 2007, 03:43:23 »

Well, insofar as the language goes, nobody speaks Latin, but we still know it. Not only that, there are civilized Dragons in existence in Nybelmar who would know the language.

The idea of the cult being the source of theoretical knowledge about the original religion has merit. But you misunderstood me to some degree: what I meant was secret was the knowledge of the Draconian language in the sense of what is used for its more dangerous magical purposes.

Religions, specifically cults, have different levels, and those deeper in are granted access to "higher" knowledge and understanding - such "higher" knowledge would be supposed access to the Dragon's legendary power. There would even be a sort of "Holy Grail" mythology associated with the Adamant Gems, or the Dragonward Shield or Dragonstaff.

But much of the cult's groundwork would be readily available to it's entry-level members, and persuading them to talk about what they know would not be too hard.
Logged

Morcaanan - also known as Morc, Korim, Scales, A-13, Dearest Brother, PJ, Prime Minister, and various other random titles and honoraries.
Takór Salenár
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 358


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: 17 September 2007, 03:59:12 »

Well, from which sources do you think would we then know about the dragon's language or religion? Those sentient Nybelmar dragons? Do they have the same language as these old ones before the dragonstorm? Are they related to those?

The comparison with Latin does not fit I think, for there are actually people who are able to speak Latin and we have many, many texts. i assume, we won't have as much "dragon texts" if we have any at all. Or do you plan to change this? If we assume that these ancient sentient dragons had a language, did they need/know /were able to write? With their claws? Why should they have needed runes? And if they had some, how did they produce them?

Getting back to their religion - how actually do we get to know it? (As i asked above) Do you think sentient dragons, even those of today would talk to mere humans about their religion? And how do you know, that it is the same as the religion of the former dragons? How do we know of it? How did the people who form now the sect/order get to know of it?

There are alot of things you have to clear up I fear ;)
Logged
Morcaanan
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 184



View Profile
« Reply #6 on: 17 September 2007, 04:15:16 »

As to your first set of questions, look up the Sunset Dragon.

But why can't it fit with Latin? If we develop the language, then texts must certainly follow through. They could exist in any number of places: Korweyn, Ximax, Nyermersis...Dragons are too deeply integrated into this world for such things not to exist.
A spoken language does not necessarily require its own runes. The script could be a form of elvish or some other written form, the language would be Draconian.

Quote
Do you think sentient dragons, even those of today would talk to mere humans about their religion? And how do you know, that it is the same as the religion of the former dragons?How do we know of it? How did the people who form now the sect/order get to know of it?

Refer to the Sunset Dragon and my former posts.
Logged

Morcaanan - also known as Morc, Korim, Scales, A-13, Dearest Brother, PJ, Prime Minister, and various other random titles and honoraries.
Jude the Archivist
Newbie
*

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 7


Part hobbit, part student.


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: 17 September 2008, 07:04:21 »

Quote
Do you think sentient dragons, even those of today would talk to mere humans about their religion? And how do you know, that it is the same as the religion of the former dragons?How do we know of it? How did the people who form now the sect/order get to know of it?

Just had some thoughts if a dragon did have a religion...

-I don't think they would believe in a god that wasn't a dragon, maybe they would worship the first ever dragon or their anchestors, but not a distant intellectual being that has no true form.

-I imagine a dragon would be less questioning in its beliefs, than a normal elven/human/dwarven being. They have been part of the world for so long, wouldn't they just feel their religion as being part of their existance? It wouldn't be like humans, where we more question about what we believe in.

-A dragon would just think they know how the world was created. I don't think a dragon would even define their religion as a set of beliefs, more just knowing. I don't think they would worship or prayer in the more human sense. But just try to live a life which honours their god or ancestors.

-I just think that perhaps a dragon's religion would be harder to define and apply to Santharian definitions of religion. Just like how buddhism cannot be defined in the same ways more western religions can. A traditional tibetan buddhist might not even define their religion as a faith, because the Buddha was against believing in something just from faith alone. A santharian writer's definition of the religion of dragons would never be able to truly define it because the santharian culture is so different.

Sorry, these are just crazy ramblings and thoughts, I could be wrong.
« Last Edit: 17 September 2008, 07:26:56 by Jude the Archivist » Logged
Azhira Styralias
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 132
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.774


Mód’dél’áey


View Profile
« Reply #8 on: 17 September 2008, 10:52:17 »

These are good thoughts, Jude...unfortunately, the debate over dragon religion is all but dead at the moment. The original creator, Morcaanan, has not been active for many months. This debate cannot proceed without his work or unless he grants someone else to take over.

Perhaps your thoughts on the hobbit religion would be useful? That is currently being developed. Also, the Icelands Tribes religion needs some input as well. Not to mention the few Nybelmar tribe religions that are up. Feel free to input in those threads!  ;)
Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Jude the Archivist
Newbie
*

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 7


Part hobbit, part student.


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: 17 September 2008, 12:23:03 »

Bah! undecided What a mistake to make, oh well.  *Packs her bags and leaves to look at the hobbit religion, Nybelmar and ice tribes...*
Logged
Bard Judith
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 365
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 7.650


Dwarvenmistress


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #10 on: 09 October 2010, 18:49:11 »

Bumping in case there are any useful concepts or ideas for Drakonic...
Logged

"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
Azhira Styralias
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 132
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.774


Mód’dél’áey


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: 10 October 2010, 08:14:40 »

After reading all of this, I would like to generate discussion about a draconic cult. Obviously, dragons are real (albeit rarely seen or heard) and there is enough myth/lore about them to logically generate a system or group of beliefs about them.

I propose that the draconic religion not be a genuine belief system of dragons themselves, but the religion is in fact a system of the cult. The members of the cult have spread the myth that dragons believe in certain things when in fact its the cult's teachings that are spread in the guise that a powerful dragon under the mountain holds these teachings.

Furthermore, it could be possible that a genuine dragon itself began these teachings to garner human believers to its cause. Specifically, draconic religion as Santharians know it, is but a false teaching - something a dragon spurned long long ago that humans have carried through the years as truth.

Make sense? Essentially, rather than have a "religion of dragons", you have a religion of the cult - inspired by a dragon.
Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 143
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 11.639


Shendar, Shen-D'auras


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #12 on: 10 October 2010, 08:24:19 »

That's a great idea, Azhira. The religion of the dragons would be a very difficult thing, but a cult which believes in certain things and says, that this is its (the only true probably) religion is just genial :)

 thumbup  Go for it!
Logged

"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path  that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking,  breathlessly. ~Don Juan"
***Astropicture of the Day***Talia's Long, Long List***
Azhira Styralias
Moderator
****

Gained Aura: 132
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.774


Mód’dél’áey


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: 19 October 2010, 08:31:32 »

I am starting to brainstorm additional ideas here. As I research the idea of a draconic cult, I am looking for ways to integrate it into anything already on-site as a way to build off what we have already developed. Many of my entries build on existing knowledge (Lost Ones for example) as a way to carry on the history.

I propose that perhaps the draconic cult has its beginnings in the Chadderelomach Cult of Shendar. This cult not only is very old, but highly mysterious in many ways and currently has no known followers.

- The Chadderelomach Cult had a charismatic leader

The cult was founded by a single man seeking to become a deity. Magic was feared after the War of the Chosen and although Chadderelomach was a mage, he instead used his great charisma to gain followers to his vision. In effect, he sought to escape the Shendar cultural chains.

- The cult fell apart

Chadderelomach died before fully realizing his dream of becoming a deity. He built three temples, but after his death, his followers formed factions that ended up fighting each other. One man emerged from this turmoil named Kaandrish, who was said to have been immersed in the dark arts.

- The temples are destroyed in an unknown cataclysm

Now comes the twist! This unknown cataclysm mentioned in the entry could have been caused by a dragon that was disturbed by all the chaos going on. If this dragon destroyed the temples and most of the Chadderelomach Cult followers, it is possible that Kaandrish survived and came to abandon his petty reverence for gods and demons and instead turned to dragon worship - specifically this dragon.

- A new cult is born

Surviving followers of the Chadderelomach Cult witness the failures of Chadderelomach's vision and the chaos that ensued. Now, the theory will go that Kaandrish picks up the pieces and follows this dragon who teaches him strange magics and powers. The cult teaches that this dragon gave knowledge to Kaandrish that he passed on down through the ages through his followers. The dragons can be seen and heard unlike many gods who don't share a mortal existence. The cult reveres dragons as the most powerful creature on the Disk.

What kind of dragon? I propose a fire dragon, one who perhaps lives in the volcano. From a developer point of view, did this dragon actually start this cult with humans? Likely not, but it is very likely the dragon caused this cataclysm that wasted the Chadderelomach temples and followers.

With nothing left to lose, Kaandrish still had a dream and having never seen a dragon before, he was awestruck and enamored with this great beast and found a way to keep his followers. So now we possibly have a point of origin for the cult, a dragon, a leader with a name and a connection to the existing Chadderelomach Cult.

Thoughts? Ideas?
Logged

No, I would not want to live in a world without dragons, as I would not want to live in a world without magic, for that is a world without mystery, and that is a world without faith. And that, I fear, for any reasoning, conscious being, would be the cruelest trick of all.
Cruciform
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 18
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 290


a cruciform kaleidoscope


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: 19 October 2010, 23:17:39 »

Furthermore, it could be possible that a genuine dragon itself began these teachings to garner human believers to its cause. Specifically, draconic religion as Santharians know it, is but a false teaching - something a dragon spurned long long ago that humans have carried through the years as truth.

Make sense? Essentially, rather than have a "religion of dragons", you have a religion of the cult - inspired by a dragon.
I was thinking of something along the lines of this, where a dragon may have had a human slave or something of the like.

I like your ideas in the post above, Azhira. I'm not sure if I approve of the fire dragon idea, though. It seems too close to the clichéd idea of a God who gets mad and causes earthquakes and eruptions.

I just want to know how Kaandrish would get a dragon to teach him, though (and if the dragon did indeed live in a volcano, how did he survive?). I mean, if he offered to become the dragons slave, I could understand. If he used the dark arts, as you mentioned he might have, he might potentially have been able to kill animals to feed the dragon occasionally. That sort of thing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here, have some things that I felt the need to say.
But much of the cult's groundwork would be readily available to it's entry-level members, and persuading them to talk about what they know would not be too hard.
I object to that comment. I'm not in any cult, but that's just a very... naive (That's the closest word to my meaning) statement.

If we assume that these ancient sentient dragons had a language, did they need/know /were able to write? With their claws? Why should they have needed runes? And if they had some, how did they produce them?
There might be a bastardisation of the language, written in the way that the words sound.

-I don't think they would believe in a god that wasn't a dragon, maybe they would worship the first ever dragon or their anchestors, but not a distant intellectual being that has no true form.
QFT.

-I imagine a dragon would be less questioning in its beliefs, than a normal elven/human/dwarven being. They have been part of the world for so long, wouldn't they just feel their religion as being part of their existance? It wouldn't be like humans, where we more question about what we believe in.
But it wouldn't be called a religion by the dragons. It would be called a religion or belief system by the compendiumist who compendiumises it.

-A dragon would just think they know how the world was created. I don't think a dragon would even define their religion as a set of beliefs, more just knowing. I don't think they would worship or prayer in the more human sense. But just try to live a life which honours their god or ancestors.
See the above comment.

-I just think that perhaps a dragon's religion would be harder to define and apply to Santharian definitions of religion.
No, but with a subjective view, the definition of religion could be broadened.
Logged

:: cruciform kaleidoscope (Dev. Schedule) ::
Pages: [1] 2
Print
Jump to:  

Recent
[27 March 2019, 00:01:57]

[21 June 2018, 14:28:00]

[31 May 2017, 06:35:55]

[06 May 2017, 05:27:04]

[03 April 2017, 01:15:03]

[26 March 2017, 12:48:25]

[15 March 2017, 02:23:07]

[15 March 2017, 02:20:28]

[15 March 2017, 02:17:52]

[14 March 2017, 20:23:43]

[06 February 2017, 04:53:35]

[31 January 2017, 08:45:52]

[15 December 2016, 15:50:49]

[26 November 2016, 23:16:38]

[27 October 2016, 07:42:01]

[27 September 2016, 18:51:05]

[11 September 2016, 23:17:33]

[11 September 2016, 23:15:27]

[11 September 2016, 22:58:56]

[03 September 2016, 22:22:23]
Members
Total Members: 1019
Latest: lolanixon
Stats
Total Posts: 144588
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 45
Online Ever: 700
(23 January 2020, 20:05:39)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 23
Total: 23

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2005, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Theme based on Cerberus with Risen adjustments by Bloc and Krelia
Modified By Artimidor for The Santharian Dream
gfx
gfxgfx gfxgfx