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Author Topic: Sarim is coming to town  (Read 6207 times)
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Sarim
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« Reply #15 on: 27 May 2008, 04:38:48 »

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Hello and welcome from me as well, Sarim!


Thank you very much.

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Just read that word "conworld" - very intersting. So that makes me a conman then or what?


That's quite amusing. I am going to call myself a conman henceforth, when people ask what I do for a hobby.

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Anyway, I read that English is not your primary language - so where are you from then?

I come from Sweden.

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I'm lucky if I can even decide on a phoneme inventory.  Being perfectionist and indecisive is not fun.   


Well, I guess it depends on preferences. Me, I like open syllables and few consonant clusters (but I love exotic consonants and my langs are ripe with retroflexes, ejectives, implosives, uvulars, and pharyngals and sounds like that). My main problem with phonology is that I am not very good at it. I am more of a grammar person and do not like spending time pouring over descriptions of Yawelmani phonology and whatnot.

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I tend to gravitate towards making very synthetic languages too, though good references seem to be hard to find.

Synthesis is a favourite trait of mine, though I am less of a polysynthesis fetishist than I used to be. Nowadays, the ideal is 'moderate agglutination' as far as I am concerned. References, you said? Let's see if I can produce a few:

http://repositories.cdlib.org/ucpress/ucpl/ ~ Here you can find (free) grammars of Wappo, Cupeño and Proto-Wintu (all of them Amerindian, though not related to one another)

http://scholarship.rice.edu/search ~ Search for 'grammar' and you'll turn up some very detailed descriptions of Matses, Warihiyo, Trumai, Khanty, and two more languages I cannot remember at the moment.

http://www.lotpublications.nl/index3.html ~ A good deal of free grammars can be found here (click 'Contents' to access the articles).

There are plenty more, but tracking them down would take hours.

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Do you know of anywhere online I can find information about Georgian? 


The best one is http://www.armazi.demon.co.uk/.

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Tharoc appears again, facing the wrong way on Valkree's back, with a pair of extra-large female undergarments around his head, flapping wildy as they flee*


Thank you for the information -- I'll be sure to remember to never hitch a ride with Tharoc, then.

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I don't think we can actually develop Mermish by the way.... it's... inhuman in far to many ways. Maybe the pidgin of mer-tharian, but not actual mermish.

Oh, but producing languages very far off the human norm is not as hard as you might think. All you need is some really freakish idea to base the grammar on (e.g. the stack rather than tree-based syntax in Jeffrey Henning's alien lang Fith, for example).
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #16 on: 27 May 2008, 04:40:36 »

I'm not sure if pure mer has grammar.. its a song-language after all.. humans can't even detect a lot of the sounds involved.
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Avrah Kehabhra

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Mina
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« Reply #17 on: 27 May 2008, 04:56:37 »

Wow, thanks.  So far I've mostly depended on Google, which seldom produces very useful results. 

'Moderate agglutination', assuming that means something like Finnish grammar, is about as much as I know, which might be why I find polysynthesis and things close to it to be interesting.  Stuff you already know tend not to look as interesting. 
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Smee
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« Reply #18 on: 27 May 2008, 04:58:24 »

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Well, I guess it depends on preferences. Me, I like open syllables and few consonant clusters (but I love exotic consonants and my langs are ripe with retroflexes, ejectives, implosives, uvulars, and pharyngals and sounds like that). My main problem with phonology is that I am not very good at it. I am more of a grammar person and do not like spending time pouring over descriptions of Yawelmani phonology and whatnot.

*grins*

I already knew languages were definately not a talent of mine, but this paragraph brings it home.

Gah... give me sphere III ounia manipulations any day.
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #19 on: 27 May 2008, 05:01:16 »

lol

Well, I can feel with you, Smee... That's why I always try to remind Anwulf to talk in non-linguistic language as good as possible, because regular mortals have their problems with getting the picture ;)
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #20 on: 27 May 2008, 05:04:30 »

It's like Mina bursting into a monologue about form, substance and structure.. Or Alysse talking Kuglimz'seitre..

Oh well, lets just be glad Rookie does not habitually speak Browniin
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Avrah Kehabhra

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Sarim
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« Reply #21 on: 27 May 2008, 06:11:32 »

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I'm not sure if pure mer has grammar.. its a song-language after all.. humans can't
even detect a lot of the sounds involved.

Well, there's only one way I can think of right now for a language to do without a grammar; if it has a specific word for every possible concept (even concepts we normal humans would need entire books to express) then there will be no need for grammar. However, that is highly implausible.

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Wow, thanks.  So far I've mostly depended on Google, which seldom produces very useful results. 


Google is not exactly the best library service you can find, I must admit. I am glad to be of assistance, anyway.

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'Moderate agglutination', assuming that means something like Finnish grammar, is about as much as I know, which might be why I find polysynthesis and things close to it to be interesting. 


I'd say that Finnish is a good example, but it is important to notice that just like that word you mentioned--'polysynthesis'--the term 'moderately agglutinative' is not very well-defined. Level of synthesis is relative; most languages are more synthetic than English, but less synthetic than Inuit. Nevertheless, you are correct.

Stuff you already know tend not to look as interesting. 

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I already knew languages were definately not a talent of mine, but this paragraph brings it home.

I'm always happy to show off, self-centered as I am.

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Well, I can feel with you, Smee... That's why I always try to remind Anwulf to talk in non-linguistic language as good as possible, because regular mortals have their problems with getting the picture


I'll try not to be too technical, in that case. I'll make a habit of explaining all grammatical terms that pop up when I write about language.
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #22 on: 27 May 2008, 07:00:39 »

It does seem to have grammar.. even though merfolk isn't intelligent per sé, so the amount of concepts is limited...  but humans still can't hear half of it.. oh well, maybe we can find an elf to translate it..
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Avrah Kehabhra

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Bard Judith
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« Reply #23 on: 27 May 2008, 08:22:56 »

You mad conmen leave Mermish alone!  It's SUPPOSED to be fragmentary and incomplete - has anyone ever created a gorilla grammary?   

It's a fascinating concept to do a non-human language, but all of the sophisticated details you are tossing around belong in a higher-level species.  Mer are just above the 'point-and-grunt' stage - their words are not articulations of language so much as they are conceptual.   In fact, what's on the site was probably 'over-interpreted' by human researchers, possibly even anthropomorphised in the same way that we think we know what our cats and dogs are 'saying' with their whimpers, whines, snarls, hisses, mews, and barks.   Of course it is communication, but I'm not sure that's the same as 'language'....


Oh, um, hello, Sage Sarim.  A pleasure to meet you!  Don't let this lot intimidate you; we usually keep THEM in fetters so they don't eat the guests....

(ducks a flying cookie and grins wickedly at Mira's missing her.  Smee and Mina are just beginning to send vicious glares her way as she merrily dashes out the door with an impudent flip of her long skirts)
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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #24 on: 27 May 2008, 21:39:28 »

Nsikigan Yourth, Eyelian Expert, at your service.
If you have any expertise in Natrive American languages, give me a call, Im working on a language for the Eyelians.
I also handle armor, weapons, beastiary, and Eyelian Culture.
And if you ever need comments on your entries, give me a pm.
Welcome to the Dream!
Oh, and pass the Doch nuts!
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Nsikigan Yourth, Eyelian extraordinare.

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Wisdom begins in wonder. ~ Socrates

A government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it- HD Thoreau
Sarim
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« Reply #25 on: 27 May 2008, 22:57:33 »

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You mad conmen leave Mermish alone!  It's SUPPOSED to be fragmentary and incomplete - has anyone ever created a gorilla grammary?   


No, but Gorillas have created sign-language grammar. So nothing is impossible.

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In fact, what's on the site was probably 'over-interpreted' by human researchers, possibly even anthropomorphised in the same way that we think we know what our cats and dogs are 'saying' with their whimpers, whines, snarls, hisses, mews, and barks.

That is a very good point. Of course, if we are dealing with a primitive, language-less lot, then there is no point, I suppose, in detailing their speech.

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Don't let this lot intimidate you; we usually keep THEM in fetters so they don't eat the guests....

Nice to see that you got working security here.
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #26 on: 28 May 2008, 01:24:41 »

Oh, yes... If you are under the Bard's protection, you ought to be quite safe for anything others might do to you.. just be carefull not to step into the wrong rooms eh?

And the Mer, well.. she kind of said it all, in a much better way than i could :)
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Avrah Kehabhra

"The whole POINT of Nybelmar is that no one has any idea whats going on, overly long entries keep it that way." - Decipher Ziron
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