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Author Topic: Question about early history  (Read 4432 times)
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Morden Peshirgolz
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« on: 05 January 2009, 06:20:18 »

OK, some questions I came up with while doing research for the Ylossian time table.

First, I need to know whether the entries on Fá'áv'cál'âr, the Great Sundering, and the Age of Silence are up to date and accurate.

Secondly, these entries seem to imply that the Dwarves were actively involved in the events of the Elven empire and the Sundring. This would mean that the Ylossians had already become the precursors to our modern tribes, though which is not clearly defined. It seems that the Mitharim certainly were already in existence at this point. So, I know the Ylossians are said to have never come to the surface, but can this be changed in order to account for their active involvement in world events? How much creative freedom do I have in explaining how the Dwarves split up and became modern tribes?

Thirdly, where is the empire of Fá'áv'cál'âr supposedly located? It seems to be in the current Shadow Marshes of Northern Sarvonia. Is this correct?

Lastly, are there any Dev. maps of what Caelereth looked like before the War of the Chosen? Where was everything located on the ancient mass continent? The Ylossian entry mentions the Tandala Highlands, but they could not possibly have been located in the same place as they are today.

Any help here is greatly appreciated.
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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #1 on: 05 January 2009, 06:50:17 »

I'm no good with my elf/dwarf history, but I'll see if I can't dig up the map for you- check through the alsetism discussions, I think there may have been one there.
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Nsikigan Yourth, Eyelian extraordinare.

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Grunok the Exile
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« Reply #2 on: 05 January 2009, 07:15:42 »

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First, I need to know whether the entries on Fá'áv'cál'âr, the Great Sundering, and the Age of Silence are up to date and accurate.
Yup, as far as I am aware.  These are the basis for a lot of stuff, so they are being built on, not changed.  Not sure about the Nybelmarian stuff so much, but the Santharian stuff will be accurate.

Can't help you with your second question - you may wish to bell-ring Judy if she doesn't find this herself in a few days.

Quote
Thirdly, where is the empire of Fá'áv'cál'âr supposedly located? It seems to be in the current Shadow Marshes of Northern Sarvonia. Is this correct?
  Yup  :)

Quote
Lastly, are there any Dev. maps of what Caelereth looked like before the War of the Chosen? Where was everything located on the ancient mass continent? The Ylossian entry mentions the Tandala Highlands, but they could not possibly have been located in the same place as they are today.
  Here you are - see if these help: http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,8939.0.html

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Any help here is greatly appreciated.
  My pleasure  grin
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Jeréth Ancalídormis
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« Reply #3 on: 05 January 2009, 07:35:01 »

truely amazing what history says to the reader... magic unto itself, this world is...
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Morden Peshirgolz
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« Reply #4 on: 05 January 2009, 08:15:07 »

OK, thanks for the help, Grunok! The reason I ask about accuracy is that the mentioning of the dwarf Kurak and his magic anvil are only referenced in those places, and are not integrated with any of the other dwarf entries. So that information seems very vague, but still needs to be integrated. Since you said this is information for the basis of development, I'll incorporate that story very fully into my history work.

Now I also have a question about the Dev. maps Grunok pointed out to me. They show a significant amount of water between Sarvonia and Nybelmar. How did Dwarves get over onto Nybelmar, then? Is this something that still needs to be defined? And are the Tandala Highlands on the Northern or Southern part of Sarvonia, according to this map? Because there's a channel of water in between those as well, which would have a great effect on the migration of the Dwarves.

I am so obsessed with the water, here, because Dwarves are not sailors (with a few notable exceptions). So any significant bodies of water present a very large barrier to their migration.
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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #5 on: 05 January 2009, 08:21:56 »

Not if they have underground/underwater tunnels!
Just a proposition, it seems pretty dwarfy....
And then, about that map, that'd be the one I was looking to drudge up.
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Nsikigan Yourth, Eyelian extraordinare.

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Grunok the Exile
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« Reply #6 on: 05 January 2009, 08:25:20 »

I suspect that will be a subject for your imagination, Mordren ;)  Perhaps...

They swam?
They caught a ride on a sea creature?
They tunnelled?
Urtengor showed them the way?
They caught a ride with a Nybelmarian?
Walked down into Aeruillin, entered the void and somehow ended up in Nybelmar?
Bunnyhopped from island to island over thousands of years, leaving a trail of artefacts?
Sailed then lost the technology?
Migrated with elves, orcs or humans?

Or perhaps it is simply unknown.  You could have a lot of fun coming up with conflicting myths...

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Morden Peshirgolz
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« Reply #7 on: 05 January 2009, 08:28:20 »

Alright, then, I will let my imagination go for it on this one. Bunny-hopping,  pet Sounds like a great way to travel. ;)
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Ganinon
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« Reply #8 on: 05 January 2009, 09:21:25 »

Just another idea for how they got over, a Land-bridge of sorts. Idea came from the one that was supposidly between Alaska and Russia, that eventually got covered up with water. I don't know if it could be possible between Nybelmar and Santharia though.

Just a idea I had while reading... :D
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Grunok the Exile
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« Reply #9 on: 05 January 2009, 11:21:50 »

Hehe, that one was from the Pacifican and Maori peoples' migration, though they left behind bits of pottery (called Lapita pottery), not metal by which archaeologists have pieced together a possible way they came to New Zealand (where I live).

One lesson which can be taken from the Maori example, perhaps, is that there is unlikely to be a definitive answer.  Different tribes of Maori people have different legends (one being that their ancestor arrived on the back of a whale!), and the people to whom they seem to be most closely related have their own explanations (I heard from a lecturer of mine that she had been told by some Pasifikan people that the Maori are people who got kicked out of Hawaiki (their legendary homeland)).

Here is a link for you to nosey at, if you are interested in reading a little more.  Obviously Santharian accounts of Dwarven origins would be much less clear than our accounts of the Maori, as Santharians don't have radiocarbon dating!  Still, there are of course some elven tribes who might preseve stories of this time.

A report of the different tales you have gathered (including perhaps a couple of rambling accounts from old-timer dwarves?) could make a lovely seperate entry to go in the tribes menu as an associated work, and would really flesh out the sense of the tribe...  just a thought :)

Feel free to hit me up on MSN or the IRC if you want to hear some of the Maori tales I know :)
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #10 on: 05 January 2009, 16:05:53 »

Grun has already provided several answers and provided the proper link to the historical maps, so that should help a bit.

In ancient times the landmasses were much closer together or even connected somehow. The middle part of Santharia was on a central island obviously. North and South Sarvonia were pushed together during the War of the Chosen, and the Tandala Highlands represent the clashing of the continents as far as I remember. In our maps we've only covered humans and elves, though, so where the dwarves were when is still unclear. These development gaps would need to be filled out. Important is to have a rough idea - the exact details aren't really necessary, at least we're talking about mythical times here.

The entry in the Ylossians surely isn't a very new one, so feel free to move dates around, put them in another time period etc.
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Morden Peshirgolz
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« Reply #11 on: 05 January 2009, 21:18:09 »

OK, thanks Art. About Fá'áv'cál'âr, it was located in the modern Shadow Marshes of Northern Sarvonia, and the Fá'áv'cál'âr entry states that all of the races were subservient to elves at that point. Does that mean that every body lived in Northern Sarvonia back then?

And pertaining to dwarves, were they enslaved like all the others? It just seems kind of strange to me that a race that avoided contact with all outsiders, and spent the large part of their early existence underground, would end up subservient to someone else. Though it is possible to come up with an explanation, and I would like to come up with one in my history tables, so that's why I ask.

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Rookie Brownbark
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« Reply #12 on: 05 January 2009, 21:40:34 »

Well, I have this:

Quote
Ancient records found in the Everbark and corroborated by ancient elven texts describe an ancient Brownie kingdom called Birn (a corruption of this term is the modern Tharian word "Brownie"). Considered to be a lost Golden Age by modern-day Brownies, Birn supposedly lasted for five thousand years, although the accuracy of this figure is sometimes disputed by modern historians and archeologists. Centered on what is now the north edge of the Paelelon Forest, it dominated the south of what is now the southern Sarvonian continent during much the same time period that the ancient elven kingdom of Fá'áv’cál''âr dominated the North. No trace of Birn now remains, with the notable exception of the Everbark. Much of current-day Brownie culture, language, and customs were purposfully reconstructed from ancient records pertaining to Birn.

Although I don't recall anything about having other races in the kingdom, so I don't know how dominating it really was....hmmm.  But this seems to suggest that it was the main power in southern santharia at that time.  I also don't know if this is still accurate - it's an old entry.  Be interesting for me to know too!
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #13 on: 06 January 2009, 00:22:28 »

Is there anything written, that the other races were enslaved during the time of Fá'áv’cál'ar's height? so far I saw them only as the cultural most advanced race and the other races looking up to them, kind of, but not that they were subservient in any way. I might have not all read about that time, anyway, I can't remember it.

To the migration: When Art and I did that maps we took the elven myth as a developer's view: The cradle of the sentient life was around the tree of life (in the Thaelon) and the migration of all known races happened from there. We knew that this might raise inconsistencies with older entries but  we put up to this.

So, the dwarves  have probably developed somewhere in the North of Southern Sarvonia as well, and some might have migrated to the north and have been part of the great elven empire.

As Art already said, there might have existed landbridges between Sarvonia and Nybelmar or at least the waterways between them were only small. There are enough dwarves who actually sailed more or less voluntarily (--> Denilou)
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Tharoc Wargrider
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« Reply #14 on: 06 January 2009, 05:34:55 »

*Sits quietly in the background taling copious notes for his own Masterwork* grin
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