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Author Topic: Rimmerins People - a new tribe?  (Read 16579 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« on: 08 February 2009, 22:01:57 »



Nsiki had a cool idea: He wants to give the people living in the Rimmerins Ring  a feeling of togetherness, which I fully support. However, I disagree with him about how far this can go and to what an extent these people give up their heritage, and, as a side question, what tribes we would find there.


As I think, that it is a very important issue - a new tribe in the centre of our world, with impact on so many things, not just history - I thought this is worth a discussion and should not be introduced as an unnoticed by-product of a masterwork.


You can find our discussion so far in his Masterwork thread on page 4 and 6 and  7.


Here is what Nsiki has written in his masterwork submission (Rimmerins Ring):
Quote
Now, a Proudman may have been the source of the above quote, though Proudmen are certainly not the only humans found in the Ring. Proudmen (along with Avennorians), rank among the most common of humans in the Ring. However, most any type of Santharian can be found here, predominantly in the Eastern half. Be they denizens of the capital, or its sister city, Onved, humans have found the Ring to be an excellent source for trade, commerce, agriculture, and adventure, especially when considering the many benefits of living so close to the capital. The several human tribes have coexisted and interbred, forming the contemporary Rimmerian man- a single human tribe taking the features of many human tribes, though bound together by a common culture. The Rimmerians are known as excellent farmers, and capable warriors throughout the land. If not renowned as particularly erudite, they are famed for their skill in the art of oration, a talent perhaps derived from their Avennorian and Eyelian ancestors. The Rimmerians serve many roles in the Ring, from shepherds to farmers to militia-men to merchants, but most of all, perhaps, as festival-goers. This humble scribe challenges the reader to go for a stroll in a Rimmerins village, stay a week, and manage to avoid some type of festival. For in the magnificent Rimmerins, there is always some hero's birthday to celebrate, a bountiful harvest to give thanks for, or maybe just a simple celebration, its meaning long-forgotten to the sands of time, yet beloved by festival-goers nonetheless.


Maybe this is only a misunderstanding, based on not enough information from my side (there is the passage of ‚ taking the features of many human tribes‘), but as I understood him, he wants to do a normal tribe entry, establishing a new formed tribe (when formed?), where the people do not think of themselves as Eyelians and Serphelorians, Avennorians and Proudmen, but as Rimmerins, though with different heritage.


He argued, that this happened in North-America as well (as a response to my Bavarian example), but I think, you cannot take North America as an example, for the premises are too different (most of the people, apart from the native Indians, came from other continents, where kind of uprooted, a special kind of people, not to compare with the old-established tribes we known from Santharia. Apart from that, it was long past the middle ages, where the people had a different mindset. And, what for tribe has formed in America which could be compared to the Rimmerins?


What we need to consider first before we start discussion is following:

Santharia‘s history is VERY long compared to Terranean history, so you can always say, in ten thousand years everything can blend together. However, then this blending would have occurred everywhere in Santharia and we would have an uniform culture throughout the whole kingdom and our tribe descriptions would have to be all referring to ancient tribes.

So, I assume:
-  that it is not much different than in the Europe of the last 1000 years or maybe 1500.
-  that Santharian humans have no different mindset than the people in Europe in the middle ages here (I don‘t know too much about other culture in this respect), they act and feel like the tribes of (Central/Southern) Europe.



My arguments against a ‚new tribe‘ in the sense of any other tribe we have already.


A side remark first: There are some mentioning of ‚blending together‘ on the site already, (mingling between Eyelians and Serphelorians, Avennorians feeling as Serphelorians ) which are equally unbelievable for me, but I don‘t want to treat this right now)[/i][/size]


Tribes do not mix so easily, not if the cultural differences are significant, and our tribes are described in this way.



Proudmen (Erpheronian): The names says it - would they ever give up their heritage and call themselves different than „Erpheronian“? Why should so many live in the Rimmerins Ring anyway (not New Santhala, which is an altogether different thing)?

Avennorians: Are not less proud to be Avennorians, not to speak that many still  poke on their Glandorian heritage. Some with a strong Darian heritage (in the south of Avennoria though) are fighting for their (more or less lost) identity still today.


All the other tribes might have less difficulties to adapt other customs, being not as proud, but giving up old customs you are used to and replace them with others? If you don‘t give up old traditinal ways, you won‘t get a new tribe.

Eyelian, Serphelorian: Though there former tribal features have been weakened (though Nsiki made the Eyelians much more aware and present as they were before) compared to the other tribes (apart maybe from the Kyranians), I doubt that they will easily abandon what is left.

Let us have a look at small communities of non Eyelian or Serphelorian origin. (Why do they exist at all? Why has this group left its homeland, its tribe?) What is characteristic for such groups, which live in a kind of diaspora?


- People are especially aware of their heritage and do not mix easily especially when they live not within the boundaries of their tribe. Often marriage are interdict with partners not belonging to this specific group (more or less, nobody would have the idea to marry somebody who does not belong to his own tribe)

- People tend to keep to themselves, because they fear, much more than in the homelands, to loose their identity. Only if they feel relatively safe in their tribal identity, they will accept other customs etc.
- If an intermarriage took place, the person living within the new community had to give up most of his/her tradition.

(Single families, merchants, representatives of other tribes, dependancies of trade business etc.
These are in number small compared to the rest, may have been easier assimilated, but do they really count, that happens everywhere.)


I‘d like to back up my arguments with some examples of my native Bavaria.
There is nothing such as a Bavarian Tribe. There is „Old Bavaria“ (around Munich), „Lower Bavaria“ , Frankonia, the Swabia, the Upper Palatinate. The people there do feel as Franks, Swabians etc FIRST, and only to the outside (to people not belonging to Bavaria) they refer to themselves as Bavarians (especially in contrast to the ‚Prussians‘, but - all people north of a certain river (Main) are called ‚Prussians‘, though they are not)
Only recently, after WW II, customs have spread (the maypole e.g. from southern Bavaria to Northern Bavaria to attract more tourists), house forms have leveled to the same uniform type due to modern times.
Before that, houseforms, clothes, customs were different from valley to valley and thouhg they changed over time, the people were still very aware of their identity and their differences!
 - Young men fought with those of the neighboring village just because one had dared to throw a glance at one of the village girls. It was expected, to marry within your local setting.
When my husband introduced me to his grandmother, the only important thing for her was, that I was of the lutherian belief as the family of my husband was - that was due to the fact, that they lived in a (religious) diaspora. ( That I was five cm taller than him did not bother her as was the case for my parents in law ;) )But I think, that can be extended to non religious things as well.
Bavaria has a white-blue banner, but in the different areas are ALWAYS hissed the red-white  of the Franks and the black-white of the northern, not Frankonian parts. There are often quarrels between the different old tribes still. The last Bavarian minister president had to go not only because of a political downfall of the so mighty ruling party, but to a certain amount as well, because he was Frankonian and the in Munich sitting ruling party did not fully accept this.


A non Bavarian example: The ‚Sorben‘ , a little tribe which has managed to keep his identiy within Germany till today and is one of the two officialy accepted minirites within German, with an extra, very different language etc.. Unfortunately there is no English wiki-article, here is the German one.
I could go on and on here, but I better bring forward my view of how the rimmerins people could look like, after all we are
 Bavarians as well ;)




My idea how the Rimmerins people could be defined.

The tribe template could be used, but I would NOT call them a tribe. I‘m not fit enough in English to find another fitting word though.

 - There is a feeling of togetherness of all people, humans, hobbits (?) and maybe other fitting races as  well (Orcs, I dunno), they all feel as Rimmerin, BUT without giving up their original identity as Eyelians, Serphelorians, Elveran Hobbits etc.

- They still keep true to all their old traditions (including language), however, they have  alot of things in common which others do not share. What that may be has to be developed out of the history. A ‚common‘ holiday for a hero who saved the Ring from.. An anthem praising a hobbit who .. A special set of words only used here, but in every language or dialect which is spoken in the Ring. I doubt though, that there is a comon dialect which everybody speeks.

More ideas for connective elements could come from studying the history which we set up fragmentarily during Santhmoot II (link comes later)

There may even be a movement of people who stem from intermarriages who try to organise a ‚movement‘, bringing together people of mixed heritage who claim to be the true Rimmerins, but I think this group should not be too big or too dominant.

Not so a common legislative, what would be more valid for the whole of Sanguia.

.......

Enough for now, bringing ideas to paper which are so clear when lying in bed at night is not easy!

 


 
 


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« Reply #1 on: 09 February 2009, 01:14:05 »

Probably shouldn't be sticking my nose into this, but it is an interesting concept, and one of mammoth proportions to the site.

Perhaps the Rimmerian Man is a tribe in the making.  What I mean is, that Nsiki is right that they are a blended tribe from all the tribes that settled the area, but that Talia has a point that each would cling desperately to their heritage.  At this point in time, they are slightly different from the parent tribes of all, but that in, say, 500 more years, or a 1000, they will be a completely different set of peoples from all the others.

As far as Talia's examples from Bavaria go, we do have that over here as well.  We are definitely not homogeneous mix of people.  Natives are still not completely accepted, French Canadians do not see themselves anything like English Canadians, the Metis, Amish, etc.  Canada is the Melting Pot, so they say, so maybe the Rimmerins Ring area can be a Melting Pot as well.  This is what I think would be the beginning of a tribe unto itself, but not quite there yet.

Perhaps this can be made into a current topical debate amongst sages, compendium writers and the people of Rimmerins Ring.  Maybe there are some that wish to be seen as a new tribe, wanting maybe there own form of government, while on the other side of the debate, there are others who resist this new label for the citizens of Rimmerins Ring, and refuse to acknowledge any attempt at independence.

Perhaps a look at Canadian contemporary history from the 1960-70's, FLQ crisis, etc, to the 80-90's where a referendum was held for Quebec to separate from the rest of Canada.

Or, a quick, "Get yer big nose outta this, Altario!" might be the best approach.  lipsrsealed
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« Reply #2 on: 09 February 2009, 04:17:53 »

Quote
He argued, that this happened in North-America as well (as a response to my Bavarian example), but I think, you cannot take North America as an example, for the premises are too different (most of the people, apart from the native Indians, came from other continents, where kind of uprooted, a special kind of people, not to compare with the old-established tribes we known from Santharia. Apart from that, it was long past the middle ages, where the people had a different mindset. And, what for tribe has formed in America which could be compared to the Rimmerins?

But here, in Santharia, we had a similar situation - just minus the seas. The natives lived here, the Ereph./Aver/Serph/whomever pushed them out to an extent, and formed a new "tribe" - the American. Here, i have french blood and Irish blood and English blood and Scottish blood and Ojibwe blood, but I do not consider myself predominantly British/Irish/Native American/French. I consider myself American, which is very distinct from those other groups, but retains traits from all of them, plus traits from the Italians, Greek, Hispanics Africans, whatever.

Quote
Santharia‘s history is VERY long compared to Terranean history, so you can always say, in ten thousand years everything can blend together. However, then this blending would have occurred everywhere in Santharia and we would have an uniform culture throughout the whole kingdom and our tribe descriptions would have to be all referring to ancient tribes.
Not quite so - there is no reason for a Shender to travel up to Marcogg or Nymerses, for instance, but EVERYBODY is attracted to the capital. Because of this draw to the capital, there's also some who choose to live in the mountains. Much like those who are attracted to major cities, not all of them end up living in the city, they are stopped by intervening opportunities - e.g., they go to a mountain town because what they are looking for in a home can be found there.

Quote
Proudmen (Erpheronian): The names says it - would they ever give up their heritage and call themselves different than „Erpheronian“? Why should so many live in the Rimmerins Ring anyway (not New Santhala, which is an altogether different thing)?
Because if a Ereph. marries an Eyelian, and their child marries an Averonnian, and their child marries a Ter-Oc, then the Ereph blood isn't that predominant anymore. And like I said, perhaps the intervening opportunities in the Ring drew them away from the capital.

Quote
All the other tribes might have less difficulties to adapt other customs, being not as proud, but giving up old customs you are used to and replace them with others? If you don‘t give up old traditional ways, you won‘t get a new tribe.
Well, some customs are byproducts of the environment - placed in a new environment, certain facets of your culture may become less important. Who cares if you're a great fisherman if there's no water around?

Quote
Let us have a look at small communities of non Eyelian or Serphelorian origin. (Why do they exist at all? Why has this group left its homeland, its tribe?) What is characteristic for such groups, which live in a kind of diaspora?
Yes, I've addressed this in the Kyytering entry. There are small communities, but these are the minorities. As Art wishes, they are not entirely representative of Eyelian culture as a whole today.

Quote
More ideas for connective elements could come from studying the history which we set up fragmentarily during Santhmoot II (link comes later)
Yes, I think if you have laid out site canon at a meeting, this definitely needs to be made readily available to the rest of us, so we're not stumbling in the dark, hoping we're not treading on any toes!

Now, I think Altario has the right idea- you've got Rimmerian communities, but they aren't the driving force in this region - they're struggling in there beside the native communities, in the shadows of the cities. You still have the occasional Eyelian or Ereph. community who rejects this idea, but for the most part, Rimmerians are happy to have found a common home, and a welcoming community.

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« Reply #3 on: 09 February 2009, 05:16:37 »

I think it makes not much sense if we two are argumenting here, Nsiki. Let the others discuss.

The preliminary timetable is here
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« Reply #4 on: 09 February 2009, 06:00:12 »

I'm simply making my opinion on my creations known Talia, just trying to shed some light here.
Posted is Art's opinion on the issue.
Quote
On the issue of Rimmerians:

Well, of course a "tribe" might be too much of a name, because there's more required for a tribe I'd say. You also don't elaborate too much on what exactly make a Rimmerian a Rimmerian, there would need to be something that connects them. There is of course this "melting pot" scenario that you have e.g. when America was settled. I guess that might have been what you're aiming at, as the Eyelians are pretty much the American natives. People from all kinds of European countries came to this place and eventually formed a new nation. Well, it wasn't all that simple then, as the natives were pushed back, and it all wasn't entirely peaceful until a whole nation formed.

In case of the Rimmerians I guess you might find Erpheronians down there, because Thar was an Erpheronian, and there was this notion for some of the Erpheronians, that they had finally conquered the south, only peacefully. So their pride and hubris might show here, and a bunch of Erpheronians might have gone south therefore to make sure to assist the king and get rich and famous themselves. Similar with e.g. Avennorians, who see wealth as the most important thing, it's all about having influence there in the capital. So the signs are probably not the best that a new culture arises from that.

But personally I think history is full with surprises. So based on these conditions perhaps the dominant presence of nature in this specific region, and the fact that Eyelians dominate it, it might have turned out differently than the critics expected. Santhros was a wise king, one that brought people together, and who might have surrounded himself with nature loving Eyelians to state an example, and it would turn out to be a prosperous line. It wasn't all milk and honey, but he was a figure of light and showed others a different way of living and acceptance, and thus the Rimmerians developed a culture of their own, quite unique to the rest of Santharia, a very friendly, mixed culture. I think it's possible, why not? I'm always rooring for soem change towards the positive - and here we have a good opportunity to provide a soft heart for Santharia ;)
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« Reply #5 on: 10 February 2009, 05:59:47 »

Bump, as the upper echelons are asking for comments from more members.
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« Reply #6 on: 10 February 2009, 06:25:05 »

Patience patience!  This only went up yesterday and some people don't have time to comment so quickly - especially with such a lengthy discussion.  *end rant*  buck
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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #7 on: 10 February 2009, 06:26:29 »

My mistake, Rookie :P
I just had a feeling that this could drown fairly quickly and permanatly if left unchecked. Now, back to commenting.
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« Reply #8 on: 10 February 2009, 06:45:36 »

Nsiki, are you ignoring my arguments?

Art's post favours more my side than yours. I ask me, why you never have given me his reason why the proudmen would be present in  Santhala (not the Ring itself), I asked you more than twice.

A note again to the intermarriages. I don't think, they did occur so often:

Which noble Proudmen would take a small, brown Eyelian woman to represent his household? Maybe a rich Serphelorian, but probably not. Santhros queen might well have some maids of Eyelian origin to make allow them to climb the social ladder.

There were no love marriages in lower ranks, weddings were arranged.

People on a low social ladder where not allowed to marry, illegal offsprings (with mixed blood as well) with a future surely not brilliant would be the base of your Rimmerins men. I doubt, that they have any ambition to think like that, they are busy with surviving.


Apart from that, I just think, that a 'normal tribe' entry is simply dispensable.

Appearance - a mixture of all present tribes
Customs - a mixture of all present tribes
people -a mixture of all present tribes
housing, clothing -
government - like Sanguia

There is nothing really new, even if you add some new hero-holidays - it is not even a real challenge to write this!

IF you could manage to form a Rimmerins 'togetherness' , evolving out of historical events WITHOUT the interbreding option, with the medieval flair preserved, that would be a great achievement, that would be something really NEW, not yet described in this form in Santharia - this new tribe would not, it gives me just a bored feeling.
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« Reply #9 on: 10 February 2009, 07:05:19 »

Talia, I never gave you his reason, because he himself gave it, I was seeking to avoid redundancy.

Quote
Which noble Proudmen would take a small, brown Eyelian woman to represent his household? Maybe a rich Serphelorian, but probably not. Santhros queen might well have some maids of Eyelian origin to make allow them to climb the social ladder.
Well, I believe at one point we DID have an Eyelian queen, and certainly an Averronian might take one.

Quote
There were no love marriages in lower ranks, weddings were arranged.
Is this necessarily true in Santharia? And is it really even relevant? If the metis culture emerged in colonial canada, I'm sure a simmer idea- wait. I just realized something. I've been trying to write the metis people this entire time :P
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#/home.php?ref=home
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The Métis are descendants of marriages of Cree, Inuit, Ojibway, Algonquin, Saulteaux, and Menominee aboriginals to Europeans, and are one of three recognized Aboriginal peoples in Canada, along with the First Nations and Inuit.
Quote
Their history dates to the mid-seventeenth century. The Métis spoke or still speak either Métis French or a mixed language called Michif. Michif is a phonetic spelling of the Métis pronunciation of Métif, a variant of Métis. The Métis today predominantly speak English, with French a strong second language, as well as numerous Aboriginal tongues.

See, I knew I had a reasoning for fighting for these guys... they're just Santh. equivalents of my own heritage :P.....

Apperance: Tall, with dark skin, often quite strong muscles. Their faces are not necessarily handsome, but they do posses sharp features, and a quite angular bone structure. Generally brown hair, though there is the rare redhead.

Customs: Festival goers, philosophy is very pragmatic, stemming from a survivalist nature - they had to make it on their own in the mountains, a fairly forbidding place.

So, a focus on survivalism by community, maybe? They can have the fiddle too, as a call out to their Terran equivilents.
God, I'm so stupid for not thinking of this Metis connection before...

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« Reply #10 on: 10 February 2009, 10:33:51 »

Quote
Natives are still not completely accepted, French Canadians do not see themselves anything like English Canadians, the Metis, Amish, etc.

Metis were mentioned.... by someone with Metis blood in their veins.  :P
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« Reply #11 on: 10 February 2009, 10:57:15 »

I know, I just didn't look at it, and associate it with my idea.
I've got Metis Blood too - Ojibwe, Scottish, and French. How bout you, Alt?
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« Reply #12 on: 10 February 2009, 10:59:45 »

Cree, French... then a bunch of others on my dads side
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« Reply #13 on: 10 February 2009, 12:06:24 »

Cool :)
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« Reply #14 on: 10 February 2009, 18:49:24 »

Wow, what a boring ancestry do I have in comparison! All without exception born and raised within an area of 30 km diameter - for the last 400 or so centuries. I'm the first who married 'outside'. Only a mixture of two German tribes though. My plans to marry a native Red Indian which I had through all my adolescence did unfortunately not come true. But I called my future husband 'Geronimo' instead of 'Gero'. ;)

My children do not identify themselves with any of their ancestral tribes. That may be a modern problem though. They don't speak their 'mother tongue' (I do have a strong dialect), I don't think they feel very much like being a Bavarian (at least they don't like most upper Bavarian customs), not even German (that may still be an after effect of the last war - they were called 'Nazis' in other European countries). At least my oldest one sees himself as world- citizen (is that the right expression?), not sure about is identification with "Europe".

Well, I did not manage to get my Red Indian Husband, but probably I will have (slightly) coloured grandchildren :)

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