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Author Topic: Rimmerins People - a new tribe?  (Read 16580 times)
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Rookie Brownbark
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« Reply #15 on: 10 February 2009, 23:59:21 »

Well, personally I don't really like the idea of having one "Rimmerins" Man throughout the Hollow (although I'm not sure how far you're suggesting they go), because I like the different cultures and their conflicts.  There needs to be a certain amount of harmony for peace and trade....but I find variety a lot more interesting :P.

I prefer Alt's suggestion of having a blending which would one day lead to a Rimmerins Man - they're used to working together and living near each other, but they aren't all lovey-dovey!  Maybe there are a few villages where the cultures have meshed and there are a range of different tribes?  But most of the villages are predominantly one of the cultures - there may be a few from another who have been assimilated into it, and some traditions from other cultures have been adopted, but they are still recognisable.

There are also a couple of things you'll have to be wary of:

~ You say that people would be drawn to the capital.  Why?  Since the industrial revelution terran people moved from rural countryside to the cities looking for work in the new factories.....but we haven't had an industrial revelution in Santharia.  The main source of income for the people will be farming, and farmers need large pieces of land - the further they live apart the more land they have!  The majority of their wares can be sold at small local markets too, rather than travelling too far to Santhala.  There are reasons for the wealthy to move there, but what about the farmers?

~ Language would also be a limiting factor here.  I doubt that all the different tribes would speak the same dialect - do they all even speak Tharian?  Some people would learn the common tongue (which I presume is the one we're speaking now and write in the compedium) but your average farmer has no need of this - the only time he might want to communicate with the other groups is at market, and sign language + a few words are probably fine for that.  Modern standard languages only appeared when countries started enforcing them post-french-revolution, and the most effective way of doing that was through mass education....which we don't have.  So the farmers stick to their own kind, the people they can speak to, and they don't mix.

I'm not saying these things can't be got around....I just think it might be more interesting and add more of a medieval flavour if solutions were found.
« Last Edit: 11 February 2009, 00:02:55 by Rookie Brownbark » Logged

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Morden Peshirgolz
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« Reply #16 on: 11 February 2009, 00:06:36 »

~ You say that people would be drawn to the capital.  Why?  Since the industrial revelution terran people moved from rural countryside to the cities looking for work in the new factories.....but we haven't had an industrial revelution in Santharia.  The main source of income for the people will be farming, and farmers need large pieces of land - the further they live apart the more land they have!  The majority of their wares can be sold at small local markets too, rather than travelling too far to Santhala.  There are reasons for the wealthy to move there, but what about the farmers?

I would disagree there, Rookie. Even in ancient times, when people lived either in agrarian societies or as nomads, people were drawn to the cities. Anyone who is not a farmer has to live there, and farmers definitely have to trade there. Cities, of medieval times and earlier, are still agrarian based. They are the trading hubs for farmers. How do get their plows, tools, furniture, clothing, and other necessary things.

Cities like these are vastly different than the industrial ones that exist today. Don't fall into the trap of thinking of cities in this light, which is from a service/industry based economy. Cities of the middle ages were much smaller, more like overgrown villages, with farmers all living nearby. The farmers needed the cities, and while they do not live in them, they live closeby because they need the goods.

So yes, I would say that all people throughout history (Terran or otherwise), have a tendency to be drawn to cities, whatever their occupation is.
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Rookie Brownbark
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« Reply #17 on: 11 February 2009, 00:19:09 »

I would say that they needed market towns, but these could be smaller and more frequent, they didn't need to be as big as a city.  Most people would make their own clothing, repair their own tools and blacksmiths lived and worked in larger villages anyway. Carpenters wouldn't just live in cities. They bought their tools from travelling tinkermen, because they didn't really have many.  Cities are places for merchants trading more valuable goods - meeting places where travellers cross rivers etc.

Hmmm I suppose presence of the city would provide the farmers around it with protection, but I don't see much reason for them to go into it themselves unless they were really very very close.  They are living and working in the countryside.
« Last Edit: 11 February 2009, 00:28:40 by Rookie Brownbark » Logged

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« Reply #18 on: 11 February 2009, 00:27:31 »

They probably wouldn't enter it often, but certainly around harvest time I think they would. How else would the townspeople eat? They would have to buy food from the farmers. I guess you could say that merchants carry the goods into the cities for the farmers, but that doesn't make as much sense to me.

We're going for a medieval feel, so I would point you to the example of the serfs. While they rarely traveled into the cities and certainly did not live in them, their dependence on the protection and goods of the city made it necessary that they remain in the surrounding area.

So, farmers are drawn to cities. Or more accurately, they are drawn to the countryside surrounding the cities. So basically I think you are right in what you say, Rookie. But I think it is OK to state that the farmers are drawn to the cities, as long as its clarified that its the area around the city that they live in, not the city itself.
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Rookie Brownbark
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« Reply #19 on: 11 February 2009, 00:34:31 »

I guess the question is more how far they would be drawn to the city - how squashed would they be prepared to live?   I don't think the lure of a city would be enough to make them live really close together (close enough to blend that much) - that's what I'm getting at. They would resist it, and they would be able to because they each need enough land for farming anyway.

Like you said, the city is much smaller and used as a market town, but so are all the other market towns not just the city.   It's not just cities they need, it's any market town.  I'm not sure there would be a huge lot of difference for a farmer between New-Santhala and any other town - not enough to make him live that closely with a completely different culture?
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« Reply #20 on: 11 February 2009, 00:39:30 »

OK, you're right. To a farmer, any market town would be a suitable city. For medieval times, those kinds of towns were considered cities. They had very little on a scale comparable to modern times.

Sorry for giving you a hard time, Rooks. ;) It makes sense that most farmers wouldn't travel to New-Santhala when they have a suitable town closer.

Nsiki, if you wanted to have the farmers drawn to that city, perhaps you could include a recent famine in the history? Failing crops would force the farmers to travel to larger cities, where they could rely on the greater resources stored there. Maybe several generations of difficult times causes some of them to stay there permanently?

OK, my two sans. I won't bother you guys too much anymore. :P
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« Reply #21 on: 11 February 2009, 00:42:45 »

Carry on Morden!  It made me actually elaborate on what I meant and make it much clearer.....always good  thumbup
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« Reply #22 on: 11 February 2009, 01:05:48 »

Actually, during a period of failing crops, the farmers are most likely the only ones to have something to eat left. What little food they do still produce is now no longer sold, but used for their own.
The only thing between townspeople and famine is a farmer with a surplus.
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« Reply #23 on: 11 February 2009, 02:27:49 »

New Santhala will be along with Varcopas and Milkengrad one of the huge cities, around 200 000 inhabitants.

But I don't know, if tying it to New Santhala will resolve the problem. There are enough other major towns around with as much importance. Just because the King resides here is not necessarily an incentive to go there. These people attracted from Santhala would then be anyway in new Santhala and not necessarily in the Ring area.

As I mentioned above, you need first land available for buying before you can settle down. And as this land is already inhabited for a long time, the King can't give away a tenure (feud?) to everybody he would like to have.

Who would be want to move anyway? Poor people, who think they might have a better outcome, you don't move, because you are adventures. Last sons without own land inherited. Merchants etc would move to the town or outskirts, but probably in the city and not the Ring itself.

A possibility would be though, as Art mentioned, that the King himself calls in people out of any reasons and pays them, gives them land which the crown owes..


I could be entirely wrong however, don't we have anybody around who has actually done some studies about migration, assimilation etc?
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« Reply #24 on: 11 February 2009, 05:29:31 »

And here, we may have reached a decent compromise - the Rimmerians will be found predominantly in the mountains themselves, perhaps dotted throughout the villages in small numbers. They are the offspring of both Santharians who were given land by thie King, and the native tribes of the Ring. There are still Aver., Erereph, etc., but there are also the Rimmerians, in the infancy, perhaps, of tribehood. Sound good?
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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #25 on: 11 February 2009, 06:13:08 »

I like that idea, Nsiki--that the Rimmer peoples are just beginning to develop a national identity.  After all,  in RL, many of the countries originally colonized by Britain (and other countries) eventually pushed for and won, independence and recognition as separate countries.  The Rimmerians may not be quite at that point but they are taking the first step in the process.  thumbup

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« Reply #26 on: 11 February 2009, 07:49:46 »

Ya, know, I think that's what I had in my subconscious the whole time - I just had to beat it out with a shovel first :P
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Nsikigan Yourth, Eyelian extraordinare.

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A government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it- HD Thoreau
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« Reply #27 on: 11 February 2009, 19:48:25 »

Did you read the second half of my post Nsiki?  I do agree with this compromise, but I still think those things need to be thought about!

Also, if these "Rimmerins" people are dotted throughout villages, how do they know each other exists, how do they share a culture, language etc?
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« Reply #28 on: 12 February 2009, 06:42:48 »

The land would be given out to people, not just in one area, but in several. So you have the same blends of people, and the same general living circumstances, and perhaps this leads to a common culture. Maybe all these Rimmerians travel, like you said, to the big cities and meet several times a year? So perhaps Onvedian Rimmerians are slightly different than New-Santhalan Rimmerians?
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Nsikigan Yourth, Eyelian extraordinare.

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Wisdom begins in wonder. ~ Socrates

A government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it- HD Thoreau
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« Reply #29 on: 12 February 2009, 07:23:33 »

That is not how it happens normally, and we do not even know, if the king has the right to do so. And to whom would he give out this land? Not to the Rimmerins, to his Proudmen e.g., and they would have a Erpheronian community in the beginning and not a Rimmerins one, but only till they are assimilated.

Nsiki, there is so much to consider, and there is no need to hurry either. Give us time to think that through, thoroughly, for it does affect a lot of people.

I want to present another view, hopefully Carlos gives me some time tomorrow..

Nsiki, postpone this tribe for a while. It is an area too important for the whole community and has the capital in its midst. There is a lot of thinking , researching and maybe developing of other things first (like history) needed.
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