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Author Topic: Rimmerins People - a new tribe?  (Read 16601 times)
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Nsikigan Ho´Tonanese Yourth
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« Reply #30 on: 12 February 2009, 07:26:51 »

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That is not how it happens normally, and we do not even know, if the king has the right to do so. And to whom would he give out this land? Not to the Rimmerins, to his Proudmen e.g., and they would have a Erpheronian community in the beginning and not a Rimmerins one, but only till they are assimilated.

Well, I'm not sure that's true - Santhros was a uniter, having him only give land to his own tribe would certainly go against that idea.
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« Reply #31 on: 12 February 2009, 16:35:31 »

The question is, was Santhros in a position to give land to anyone, I don't think so, thinking at the circumstances how he became king. He has to own this land first before he can give it away. And, you assume now, that these enclaves - if there were some at all, clustered together ans not spread evenly, have continued till today, not mixing with the rest of the country and blending in? That contradicts with what you have in mind, a mingling.

No time now..
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« Reply #32 on: 13 February 2009, 05:22:16 »

Well, I'm pretty sure, as King, he would own any undeveloped land. But of course, I may be wrong, and that is something we should work out.
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« Reply #33 on: 16 February 2009, 02:43:11 »

Hi Nsiki, Talia, and all!

I've thought a while before overcoming my hesitation to contribute to this intriguing debate - mainly because my ignorance of Santharian history dwarves even my miniscule understanding of the terran middle ages. Nonetheless, I'd like to offer a few considerations, which you can always ignore - or if you chose to reply, exposing their inadequacy, I may learn something from it. :)  Let me say in advance that I can't say anything about what King Santhros would have done. Nor am I going to argue strongly for either side in this discussion, or for the nature of the compromise to be reached, but rather want to widen the number of terran examples considered in the debate - not because I think Santharia should follow any one terran pattern, but in order to open the space for thought. Anyway, here goes:

As Talia has already implied, most people's understanding of their place in the world was probably intensely local, both during the middle ages and after. National identities are a very modern invention. I would guess that for the most time, the people living within the ever-changing borders of Europe did not really care whether their king lived, say, in Paris, in London, or in Aachen (Germany). They may have seen themselves as Bretons, Frisians, Saxons (to mention just a few tribes), but even within those divisions you could usually tell by someone's accent and vocabulary from which village they came. Even today, linguists can sometimes place people who've grown up in rural England within a few miles just by the way they speak. In the middle ages, national languages did not exist in the sense that we take them for granted today. Without printing press, telephones and Answer Mushrooms, there was little drive and little chance of standardization either of customs or of language.

If groups of people migrated, their customs and language would change in response to the challenges their encountered in their new environments, so that common tribal ancestry doesn't necessarily imply common customs among people living far apart. Thus, for example, the Eyelians in the Rimmerins Ring may still call themselves Eyelians, but might, over the generations, have developed customs which are quite different from those of Eyelians living elsewhere. Thus, the argument that, say, " Eyelians will want to remain Eyelians " has two sides: they may see their customs as distinctly ' Eyelian' - but at the same time, these customs may differ from those of other ' Eyelians' living elsewhere, even though both groups of Eyelians think of their own customs as distinctly Eyelian!

In another sense, also, group identities contain a good dose of myth. For example (and this is a post-medieval example), there was a rather large Polish migration into Germany during the industrial revolution. These Poles were largely absorbed into German society, and their descendants are often recognized only by their surname. So the idea that there is a “pure German” or a “pure Pole” is rather nonsensical. (Not that the Nazis understood that.  angry ) Any one “tribe” probably consists of a multitude of different influences, and the unification and commonness is, to some extent, a result of forgetfulness, selective memory, and invention. Groups invent stories that prove that they belong together. So it's not because they are a tribe that they have a common story - it's because they have invented a successful story that they believe in their community, their tribe.

Integration, then, can mean quite different things: mixing through intermarriage (Nsiki’s idea); the adoption of common customs; the belief in the pursuit of common goals. I thought of a few examples:

Switzerland: initially a late-medieval alliance of three small areas to defend common interests against the ambitions of German kings, the Swiss alliance was later joined by other provinces to create a common territory independent of the superpowers surrounding them. As many of you will know, this has led to a strong sense of unity and independence among the Swiss, but without cultural uniformity. There are still four native languages spoken in the different areas of Switzerland, and most people don’t speak more than two of them.

Jews: An example of a people that have hung on to cultural uniqueness despite many pressures to the contrary are the Jews. Jews lived in European, Asian and African diasporas for almost two millennia. It is generally believed that the reason they were able to maintain their culture was that this culture was based on the written word. However, hanging on to “Jewishness” doesn’t mean that Jews everywhere had the same culture. The Ashkenazi Jews, driven out of Germany during the pogroms at the time of the Crusades, resettled in Eastern Europe and developed their own language, “Jiddish”, a blend of German, Hebrew, and Slavic languages. This language,in turn, is unknown among the Sephardic Jews (that is, the descendants of those driven out of Spain in the 15th/16th century, who subsequently settled in other parts of Western Europe).

Finno-Ugrians: Other “tribes” who migrated lost all elements of communality except subtle ones that we can uncover by research. Thus, for example, Finnish and Hungarian are rather closely related languages – but both in appearance and culture, Finns and Hungarians otherwise don’t share many signs of the ancestral group of people they presumably have in common.

Spread of religions: Then again, the history of the middle ages also contains examples of cultural integration over large territories: in particular, I am referring to the integration provided by religion. Islam spread through the whole of Arabia and into Asia as far as Indonesia in a short space of time. Common Christianity provided a sufficiently strong argument for the otherwise quarrelling rulers of Constantinople and Rome to engage in alliances in order to fight for what they thought of as the “liberation of Jerusalem” during the Crusades. The common folk who were recruited to fight and die for this end included Christians from all over Europe. This didn’t lead to cultural uniformity among Europeans, of course – but a sense of common purpose may be based on rather less than that.

Jerusalem: Even in cities, people of different ‘cultures’ may remain quite separate. Think of medieval Jerusalem, where, under Sultan Saladhin, Muslims, Christians and Jews lived separately, albeit not equally (but with more mutual tolerance and peace than anything the Crusaders would have found desirable or managed to muster!) – retaining their separation despite interaction.

Mexico: In modern times, Mexico is a country which is officially “ethnically uniform” (a mixture of Spanish and natives). Yet hue of skin remains significant socially, and light skin is thought of as more favourable than dark skin, and can make a difference to your chances of finding employment or a romantic partner. I’ve heard of cases where families decided to send the lighter-skinned son to university, and the darker-skinned son to a manual job – not because one was more intelligent than the other, but because they believed that the lighter-skinned son would be judged more favourably by the upper-class people a university graduate would likely depend on when it comes to finding a job. This is a modern example, of course, but illustrates how difficult the question of “uniformity” versus “distinct identities” is on earth.

Maybe I’ve just said what most people know anyway, and haven’t helped a lot. So let me offer one final point: a sense of communality (a regional identity of “Rimmerians”) would maybe be more believable if, in the course of history, the Rimmerians would have had a common cause that would have led them to unite. On earth, I fear that the common cause is very often a common enemy – but in Santharia it doesn’t need to be that way. So, for example, there may have been a natural catastrophe whose consequences were dealt with by a common effort, thus creating the chance for interaction, for acquisition of language skills, and eventually for intermarriage. Or solidarity against the ogres may have created a sense of common purpose? (Poor ogres! Now I’m citing them as a possible common enemy after all!) Events that require cooperation would also be perfect “excuses” to set up the festivals Nsiki has mentioned in his entry. These festivals, then, could encourage people to travel from their own to other villages, furthering the opportunities for interaction, and ultimately for intermarriage.

In any case, a common identity of the “Rimmerian” would not have to mean that the “Rimmerian” identity is the only one that any one person in the Ring has. The situation could be complex and colourful, could contain some conflicts, and be all the more interesting for that. I guess this is similar to what Altario was saying (more concisely than myself) in his first post in this thread, and maybe it’s also in the spirit of Rookie’s concerns.

Sincerely, Shabakuk
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« Reply #34 on: 16 February 2009, 04:12:58 »

Excellantly written, and beautifully thought out, Shab! Plus one aura!
So perhaps we combine those factors - new groups of immigrants and natives dealing with a new empire both had to adjust to a new way of life - the city of New-Santhala changed life in the Ring forever. These people found themself in the same place, with generally uniform concerns - they had to defend against ogres, and perhaps we had some massive earthquakes going on. In fact, I can go back, and add that the mountains are perhaps often susceptible to earthquakes, ecspecially in the North and South. This may present some interesting challenges for the dwarves, who may have developed some sort of seismagraph?
Anyways, these agrarian folk with a militiant streak would have to come together every so often either because of a festival, or for a market day. Maybe these things are one and the same.
So:
Santhros gives unclaimed land to settlers, who must now adjust to mountain life. The similar conditions throughout the Ring lead to these groups coming together, intermarrying and adopting similar customs, built around farming, defense, and common help, often as the result of an earthquake devastating a village. You know your village could be next, so you help others so they can help you? And perhaps these earthquakes lead to some kind of religious similarity: maybe they worship Anaiaos as a god, in addition to the twelve?

Let me add some to the history, and a bit to the description - all these suggestions have been infinitely helpful :)
« Last Edit: 16 February 2009, 04:35:31 by Nsikigan Ho'Tonanese Yourth » Logged

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« Reply #35 on: 18 February 2009, 23:48:19 »

Thanks for the input, Shabakuk! That was interesting to read!

Nsiki, these fine examples all are NO arguments for a new tribe. As Shabakuk already said, a national identity is a quite modern thing, but I would not mind to have it, but as there is no ‚American‘ tribe, but a feeling of ‚togetherness‘ of people living on the same land, there can‘t be a „Rimmerins tribe“ like any other tribes we have already, for as I see it, it is something different and has to be described differently. All your new ideas to get that tribe idea through are looking so forced to me. In my opinion there is not really room for a ‚new tribe‘ there. Let me explain why.
(A discussion with my son and enough time to think about it while building Duplo houses and playing with Thomas the Tank engine and friends brought me to following conclusions.)
I‘ll try to describe like I see the „evolution“ of the population of the Rimmerins Ring over the   centuries: (all dates around)
Basically I think that the tribes remained, but (as Shaba pointed out already), they changed a little, took in some new views, some new customs from the people they took into their community. Over a longer time period that could be quite visible though. The two big tribes, Eyelians and Sophronians/Serphelonians stayed Eyelian or Serphelonian, but each tribe is a little bit (or more on Eyelian side according the old tribe entry) influenced by the other as from any other members from other tribes like the Darians, the Glandorians, later the Avennorians, the Kyranians and eventually the Proudmen or whoever found a place in this by now (Santhros) already densely populated area. They are influenced as well by the elves and the hobbits.
I don‘t see that as a wild mixing or interbreeding of two tribes though. Both stayed mainly to themselves (see history), the other tribes are not (or should not)contribute with too big numbers (for then you would have to rewrite the Serphelonian and Eyelian tribe entries).
10600 b.S.: Those Sophronians who don‘t like the male leadership part and roam (nomadic) the lands of the King‘s Hollow (probably - west of the others who settle near the two elven forests). The eventually mix with the Eyelian (after centuries or more). --> Here a (little) change of customs, views etc has taken place, but not so much, that the people are not Eyelian anymore. These Sophronians who have married into the tribe lost more of their identity and finally merged with the Eyelian. (This might be the time when the Eyelian belief in parts of the tribe slowly merged with the Santharian and the two main gods became Santharian equivalents  --> Father Sky became Grothar; Mother Earth became Jeyriall)

10 000 b.S. - Santhros
Eyelians and Serphelorians will not have merged/mingled much, with their constant wars. Even in times of peace marriages might have been uncommon, due to the great differences in appearance and customs and non-religious beliefs.

Not so Serphelorians and Avennorians, the Serphelorians have probably adopted many Avennorian/Darian customs.
Santhros until today:
Eyelians and Serphelorians might find more together, adapting some of the customs of the other tribe. Quite a number of people may have migrated to the Rimmerins Ring, but not in such great numbers (and not with the intention) to form a new community. There might have been for some time an enclave of proudmen etc, but with the time they will have been assimilated, integrated into one of the main tribes. The Eyelians and Serphelonians might have mixed to a bigger degree in the centre of the King‘s Hollow, but there might have been quite some more fights in these last 1500 years which have seen so many wars.
Your peaceful time can only have lasted for 50 or so years by now, for before then a cruelly war devastated the lands. Not enough time to form the new identity of a tribe. Especially in times of war often former good friends suddenly slaughter their neighbors (see former Yugoslavia) and it takes many years to regain the confidence of the former enemies. And no, no peaceful time in the Hollow when war rages outside ;)

So, I don‘t see the room for a new tribe, but old tribes with members of a different heritage, with much in common, but still different. Even you common hero could be celebrated a bit differently. Make these existing tribes more richer, add to their history makes much more sense than inventing a ‚new tribe‘ in a place where is no room for another one.
There are not enough ‚new‘ things for a new tribe : Appearance, location, religion, history - nothing really new, nothing which could not be easily integrated in the existing tribes.
I really would prefer to expand on the two existing tribes, which can of course have this „Rimmerins feeling“, a tight connection between not only the two tribes, but maybe even including the hobbits and orcs in the region.

A some other concerns
- The number of people who have migrated into the Ring after Santhros (and I assume now you are basing your tribe on those, for before that time the political situation was even less favourable).: I doubt , that they were so numerous to have such a great impact on the people already living there like you want to have.
- We still don‘t know, if Santhros was able to give out enough land to support bigger immigrations. I think Art‘s idea was to have some people around him, not somewhere far away in the Ring mountains.
- Earthquakes? I don‘t think this is a good idea to introduce too many, (just because it suits you. ;) )Many earthquakes would be a hindrance for the people to cultivate the land - who goes voluntarily in a dangerous region where avalanches (snow and stone) happen frequently? The first men settled in the Alpes quite late. 
I see two practical problems as well:
-  integration would be a lot of work for a new tribe. It would be much easier to add a paragraph about the „rimmerins togetherness“ in each tribe entry.

Sanguia - I think the current borders of this province should be considered as well. Why is it this big, if there has formed a new tribe within the Ring? Wouldn‘t it be more challenge to think about why the borders are how they are?

And at last: It is not the right time to even introduce the Rimmerins feeling right now. I think a lot of historical issues need to be cleared/written down first to be able to write a decent entry without assuming too much and interfering with other future entries. Especially history needs to be pinned down. Of course every history written could take the growth of this ‚feeling‘ into consideration.
But I have another idea for you: Maybe the King‘s Hollow has seen another population before the Eyelians and Serphelorians arrived. Maybe a human tribe which has died out, or even better, an orcen (or other??) population who was however not strong enough anymore to be of any threat for the migrating Serphelorians. Maybe they were on their downfall due to a disease, there could be some remnants of their building, but perhaps they were tree dwelling people as well, and nothing attests to their presence. I imagine the Hollow with a dense forest before the human settlers came. Could be a cool place for an ancient , lost civilization.


Brr, no comments more on this one for the next time... I'm busy elsewhere and not at home.











 
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« Reply #36 on: 19 February 2009, 00:04:26 »

I forgot to say, bell-ring not only Judy (who has difficulties with her comp though) but Grunoc as well! You are interfering with her Serphelorians and she should know it.
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« Reply #37 on: 19 February 2009, 09:04:31 »

Quote
Nsiki, these fine examples all are NO arguments for a new tribe. As Shabakuk already said, a national identity is a quite modern thing, but I would not mind to have it, but as there is no ‚American‘ tribe, but a feeling of ‚togetherness‘ of people living on the same land, there can‘t be a „Rimmerins tribe“
Firstly, our tribal system allready has created a sembelance of tribal identity.
Secondly, I could very easily argue there is an "American" tribe, and thirdly, did you read the bit about the Metis tribe, in Terra?
Quote
(A discussion with my son and enough time to think about it while building Duplo houses and playing with Thomas the Tank engine and friends brought me to following conclusions.)
That's adorable.  :D
Quote
They are influenced as well by the elves and the hobbits.
In the moutains/King's Hollow I doubt that those races would have a large effect on the human tribes... But maybe.

Quote
I don‘t see that as a wild mixing or interbreeding of two tribes though. Both stayed mainly to themselves (see history), the other tribes are not (or should not)contribute with too big numbers (for then you would have to rewrite the Serphelonian and Eyelian tribe entries).
10600 b.S.: Those Sophronians who don‘t like the male leadership part and roam (nomadic) the lands of the King‘s Hollow (probably - west of the others who settle near the two elven forests). The eventually mix with the Eyelian (after centuries or more). --> Here a (little) change of customs, views etc has taken place, but not so much, that the people are not Eyelian anymore. These Sophronians who have married into the tribe lost more of their identity and finally merged with the Eyelian. (This might be the time when the Eyelian belief in parts of the tribe slowly merged with the Santharian and the two main gods became Santharian equivalents  --> Father Sky became Grothar; Mother Earth became Jeyriall)

10 000 b.S. - Santhros
Eyelians and Serphelorians will not have merged/mingled much, with their constant wars. Even in times of peace marriages might have been uncommon, due to the great differences in appearance and customs and non-religious beliefs.

Yes I agree with all this - the Metis/Rimmerians are definitely a post-colonial idea.

Not so Serphelorians and Avennorians, the Serphelorians have probably adopted many Avennorian/Darian customs.

Quote
Santhros until today:
Eyelians and Serphelorians might find more together, adapting some of the customs of the other tribe. Quite a number of people may have migrated to the Rimmerins Ring, but not in such great numbers (and not with the intention) to form a new community.
Except Art's made it quite clear to me that neither the Eyelians nor the Serph. are to be the dominant culture in the area, for the most part, so is this necessarily true?

Your peaceful time can only have lasted for 50 or so years by now, for before then a cruelly war devastated the lands. Not enough time to form the new identity of a tribe. Especially in times of war often former good friends suddenly slaughter their neighbors (see former Yugoslavia) and it takes many years to regain the confidence of the former enemies. And no, no peaceful time in the Hollow when war rages outside ;)


A some other concerns
- The number of people who have migrated into the Ring after Santhros (and I assume now you are basing your tribe on those, for before that time the political situation was even less favourable).: I doubt , that they were so numerous to have such a great impact on the people already living there like you want to have.
Quote
But is this basic assumption true? We do, after all, have too massive cities in an area of fertile farmland.....

- We still don‘t know, if Santhros was able to give out enough land to support bigger immigrations. I think Art‘s idea was to have some people around him, not somewhere far away in the Ring mountains.
- Earthquakes? I don‘t think this is a good idea to introduce too many, (just because it suits you. ;) )Many earthquakes would be a hindrance for the people to cultivate the land - who goes voluntarily in a dangerous region where avalanches (snow and stone) happen frequently? The first men settled in the Alpes quite late.

Quote
I see two practical problems as well:
-  integration would be a lot of work for a new tribe. It would be much easier to add a paragraph about the „rimmerins togetherness“ in each tribe entry.
It would be easier, but how richer would that make our world? I'm willing to do the work, Tal.
Quote
Sanguia - I think the current borders of this province should be considered as well. Why is it this big, if there has formed a new tribe within the Ring? Wouldn‘t it be more challenge to think about why the borders are how they are?
I don't see how that would change things.... no provincial borders changed as the Metis tribe formed. Anyways, the Rimmerians would have formed, most likely after the boundries were laid down.
Quote
And at last: It is not the right time to even introduce the Rimmerins feeling right now. I think a lot of historical issues need to be cleared/written down first to be able to write a decent entry without assuming too much and interfering with other future entries. Especially history needs to be pinned down. Of course every history written could take the growth of this ‚feeling‘ into consideration.
Thats like running the race without setting down the goal line first, Tal - if we have this "togetherness" idea already, then we can write the new history entries. But without the idea, the concepts are meaningless.

Quote
But I have another idea for you: Maybe the King‘s Hollow has seen another population before the Eyelians and Serphelorians arrived. Maybe a human tribe which has died out, or even better, an orcen (or other??) population who was however not strong enough anymore to be of any threat for the migrating Serphelorians. Maybe they were on their downfall due to a disease, there could be some remnants of their building, but perhaps they were tree dwelling people as well, and nothing attests to their presence. I imagine the Hollow with a dense forest before the human settlers came. Could be a cool place for an ancient , lost civilization.
Kindve an Aztecky sort of thing maybe? Interesting..... I'll look into this....


Brr, no comments more on this one for the next time... I'm busy elsewhere and not at home.
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« Reply #38 on: 19 February 2009, 17:49:05 »

So what are your actual plans now Nsiki?  How far do you want to take this feeling of togetherness?  I've read the discussion, seen the arguments, but I'm not sure how much of what we're saying is actually going to be taken on - you haven't changed the "Rimmerin's Men" section of your entry at all.

(Also, on a side note, it might be useful for you to actually give us a few insights into how the Metis tribe formed if you're using that as so strong an example.  I unfortunately have never studied any american history and had never even heard the name until it was mentioned in this thread.)
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« Reply #39 on: 20 February 2009, 07:00:13 »

All right, a little bit of Metis history, from http://www.metisnation.ca/who/faq.html
Quote
Q: Who are the Métis?

A: Prior to Canada's crystallization as a nation in west central North America, the Métis people emerged out of the relations of Indian women and European men. While the initial offspring of these Indian and European unions were individuals who possessed mixed ancestry, the gradual establishment of distinct Métis communities, outside of Indian and European cultures and settlements, as well, as, the subsequent intermarriages between Métis women and Métis men, resulted in the genesis of a new Aboriginal people - the Métis.

Q: What is the Métis Nation?

A: The Métis people constitute a distinct Aboriginal nation largely based in western Canada. The Métis Nation grounds its assertion of Aboriginal nationhood on well-recognized international principles. It has a shared history, common culture (song, dance, dress, national symbols, etc.), unique language (Michif with various regional dialects), extensive kinship connections from Ontario westward, distinct way of life, traditional territory and collective consciousness.

So basically, I want to have the Rimmerians at the point when they have formed their own independant settlement - sort of the dawning of the Rimmerian civilization, so to speak. In Canada, the Europeans met with the Natives in around 1609. The Metis culture is said to have emerged around 1800. In Santharia, the first colonists would have come down to the Ring shortly after 0 b.S., but the strong national identities Talia has pointed out may have made the blending of the cultures delay significantly. I would assume the culture formed quite sometime after New-Santhala became a major city, perhaps also after Onved was created. As the sprawl built up, more may have moved into the mountains, or more land was given away in order to attract settlers to the general area, etc.
Thoughts?
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« Reply #40 on: 20 February 2009, 08:00:02 »

Whilst I like the idea of common festivals, or of some shared pieces of culture - fashions, food etc....I don't feel like there is reason for a whole new tribe.  I dislike the idea that there will be a standard "Rimmerins Man" who can be described in an entry as having XX features and has YYY religion.  We have some of those tribes already!  What I love about the Eyelians and Serphelorians is their strange quirks - the Eyelian's religion and the Serphelorian's matriarchal society.  I fear these are in danger of being lost by making a Rimmerins Norm.  A blending of cultures sounds good....but I do not think it should have reached the stage where it needs a separate tribe entry (as that would be too much blending in my opinion), maybe just one about "Rimmerins Culture/Festivals/Food", something like that.

So much for my worries, onto the issues with creating it!

~ differences in culture often cause arguments and wars because people fear the threat of anything "other" - why didn't this happen?  Maybe it did and it was stopped?  Even if King Santhros says "there shall be peace" it doesn't automatically mean there won't be dislike/rivalry between different tribes which could easily grow into feuds etc.

~ how and why did they make the effort to communicate and learn a common language? Maybe there is some huge workforce doing some job which recruits people from all tribes and puts them together thus forcing them to learn a common tongue?  Then they take this back to their families and teach it to their children so that these children can do the same job better....or something.  The army would be the terran equivalent.

~ why would they have common festivals?  What event would be celebrated by all the people?  Maybe King Santhros puts on festivals to help the peace and bond the people together??  They celebrate the day he is crowned?

~ why weren't people farming in the King's Hollow before Santhros got there?  Why was the land free?  Good fertile land is rarely empty.

For intermarriage to be so common that they become that harmonious then there must have been a cordial feeling between one another.   Changing to an unknown religion, moving in among strangers who don't speak the same language as you....not easy!
« Last Edit: 20 February 2009, 08:06:20 by Rookie Brownbark » Logged

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« Reply #41 on: 20 February 2009, 08:06:04 »

Instead of a whole new tribe, how about a "Rimmerins Man" group? So that all these people you are meshing together remain their own tribes, but they have common quirks unique to the Rimmerins Ring. Just a suggestion, I like your idea here, Nsiki.
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« Reply #42 on: 20 February 2009, 08:18:56 »

Right, I mean "tribe" still isn't the right word, we've been arguing semantics for quite some time. I'm just not sure I'd be able to fit the information into a "groups" template. I may just make my own template, kind've a group/tribe hybrid. But to clarify - of course these people know where they came from, old allegiances are not completely forgotten, but just not as important, perhaps.
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« Reply #43 on: 20 February 2009, 17:16:46 »

Nis, I don't think your idea, though it is an interesting one, is applicable for the Ring. Even if you have tone down your ‚tribe‘ now to ‚group‘. Why should this group come into existance in the first place?
The wish to have it there because you are from a mixed heritage yourself is not enough, Nis. (Please don't feel offended now :) )

- The area is much too small (only 400 to 600 or so strals.) especially compared with the land available in Canada

- what people would belong to them, all with a mixed heritage, why should these children feel the need to form an own society when they are accepted by the parents tribe?

- That would mean, that there are Rimmerins villages and Eyelian and Serphelorian, another thought which I think is not very realistic. They will have assimilated over the last 1600 years and why should they come to life in the last 200 with no change in population? Why should they have evolved in the first place?

--- Your Metis people have probably evolved, because there were not enough white (or no) women available for these fur traders, or at least the circumstances where quite different to those in Santharia. The children did not belong to either group, the white nor indigene population, so they were forced to stick together. I don‘t see any of such principles working in the Ring. Not after those groups have lived together for so long, the young couples taken into the group which is formed by a village. Even members of other tribes are not so different, they were already known and not as foreign as the native people of Northern America to the white European settlers/traders - and did not have a lower status as the native people had in the eyes of the white settlers.

- The only possibility I see for this idea is the interbreeding between orcs and humans, the offspring would have a lot in common and probably not much to share with their ancestors.

- You could forget that Rimmerins ‚togetherness‘, (created by earthquakes, common enemies ..), for it would only apply to your group of people.


We do have such a kind of tribe already, Azhiras Kaaer'dár'shín in Northern Sarvonia. :)
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« Reply #44 on: 21 February 2009, 07:18:33 »

Quote
Nis, I don't think your idea, though it is an interesting one, is applicable for the Ring. Even if you have tone down your ‚tribe‘ now to ‚group‘. Why should this group come into existance in the first place?
The wish to have it there because you are from a mixed heritage yourself is not enough, Nis. (Please don't feel offended now :) )
I feel not the need to respond to this, as I have, in length in many preceding posts.

Quote
- The area is much too small (only 400 to 600 or so strals.) especially compared with the land available in Canada
See, the development of the Metis tribe did not happen over the whole of Canada - in fact, it developed in a few spare cities in Quebec and Manitoba. In addition, wouldn't a smaller area be BETTER for bringing people together?  huh

Quote
- what people would belong to them, all with a mixed heritage, why should these children feel the need to form an own society when they are accepted by the parents tribe?
Because their parents come from multiple tribes... it wouldn't be a first generation thing Talia, the whole point is the original blood gets diluted time and time again.

Quote
- That would mean, that there are Rimmerins villages and Eyelian and Serphelorian, another thought which I think is not very realistic. They will have assimilated over the last 1600 years and why should they come to life in the last 200 with no change in population? Why should they have evolved in the first place?
I don't entirley understand this point, Talia, I apologize.
Quote
--- Your Metis people have probably evolved, because there were not enough white (or no) women available for these fur traders, or at least the circumstances where quite different to those in Santharia.
Are they? Would the initial "colonists" have brought their whole families? If so, why? And in addition, we've already addressed an alternative explanation - King Santhros' desire to bring people together, I believe the royal family itself, someone there married an Eyelian, no? Perhaps I am mistaken, however. Regardless, the point stands.

Quote
did not have a lower status as the native people had in the eyes of the white settlers.
Actually if you read the Eyelians entry, there was some initial stigma against the Eyelian people, so I'm not sure if this is true....
Quote
- You could forget that Rimmerins ‚togetherness‘, (created by earthquakes, common enemies ..), for it would only apply to your group of people.
Not necessarily.... I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Quote
We do have such a kind of tribe already, Azhiras Kaaer'dár'shín in Northern Sarvonia. :)
Good, so we have a predecessor for this concept. Which makes it all the more viable, no?

Talia, you have accused me several times of not being a "team player". However, here, I see very little signs of you acting as part of a team. Rather, you have continually acted to throw out a hard-fought idea, and ignore the valuable suggestions of not only myself, but Morden, Shab, Alt, Rookie, even Art! These people seem willing to consider the idea, and in fact, help build it. Not in the way I expected perhaps, but they have helped shape the idea nonetheless. You, however, are acting purely adversarial, ignoring points I have already made, and now trying to cast aside a fundamental part of my Rimmerins Ring entry.

Rookie, I'm sorry, I missed your post, but it has inspired me to propose a suggestion.
The entry on the Rimmerians, will begin as exactly what you have described: a summation of culture, in essence. However, if it seems like there is room for growth, or if additional details seem needed, we can continue adding to it. Sound fair?

On a separate note, I didn't change my display name.... why IS the plaque gone?
« Last Edit: 21 February 2009, 12:51:41 by Nsikigan Ho'Tonanese Yourth » Logged

Nsikigan Yourth, Eyelian extraordinare.

Some men aren't looking for anything logical like money. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned or negotiated with. Some men just want to watch the world burn. - The Dark Knight

Wisdom begins in wonder. ~ Socrates

A government in which the majority rule in all cases cannot be based on justice, even as far as men understand it- HD Thoreau
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