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Author Topic: Reconstructing Nybelmar: Discussion.  (Read 5454 times)
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« on: 18 November 2009, 18:41:56 »

Alas, with my answer from Smith coming in this morning, i fear we will have to re-build the Nybelmar map as a whole, or try and work in the old, mono-layered map, which presents a different, but just as nasty challenge.

So, time fer' talkin'! Which way do we want to go, what changes do we want made, etc?

(By the way, i have Smith's promise he will try and peek in on us about this somewhere in the hopefully near future! Yay!)
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Avrah Kehabhra

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« Reply #1 on: 18 November 2009, 19:48:12 »

Shouldn't be too difficult to redraw these maps with the old ones as a guideline. But they won't be Koldar's anymore. (You can always keep them somewhere as 'old maps' though, they don't have to vanish from the site). But how would you do them, in Koldar style or more like the "rest"?
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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #2 on: 18 November 2009, 20:05:50 »

Thats one of the main questions. It would be easiest to use the 'new' style as used in Art's maps, mainly because i'll have the tutorial to help me through problems i might encounter.
(I'm assuming i'll be the one drawing the bloody thing here. Which, don't get me wrong, would be a fantastic project to work on by the way.)
Also, i highly suspect that the basic drawing process was the same for both versions, and that Koldar simply added some colour and ageing effects.

And i most certainly would not discard Koldars map, it is a masterfull piece of cartography! Maybe we could file it as an example of an antique map, stored in the "X" branch of the Enkyclopadië, dating all the way back to when certain regions were not as well known as they are today, explaining the large blanks.
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Avrah Kehabhra

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #3 on: 18 November 2009, 21:05:51 »

Running short on time, so jotting down my thoughts on the run:

(i) Firstly, can you please list what these proposed changes are? Need a separate thread where each landscape change/addition can be discussed and approved before anyone starts re-doing the maps

(ii) I agree that we should use Artimidor's format for the new version, because:
(a) with an existing template/tutorial, it would be easier to work in future changes - I'm guessing Koldar's fabulous rendition effects would be more time-consuming to replicate

(b) eventually, we could have a mantharia-style flash map as well. Would be very useful for two things: First, think of it as our own "post-it" explanations or mini depictions. Would be a very cool intro for a newcomer to the continent - would be able to see everything in picture form and spot the connections. Personally, I cannot cement something in my memory unless I see it in picture/diagram form; reams after reams of text just evaporate unless I restructure the material in my own mind. So for people like me, this would be an invaluable aide memoire for all things Nybelmar. Secondly, then we could use the same flash format for various resource and trade maps - which is a major project that needs to be tackled sooner rather than later. Again, personally, I cannot develop sensibly unless I know what resources are available where etc. I think we already made a good start with those resource lists. Eventually we would need to take the next step and mark them on the map. I am thinking: x (Fox did the resource maps for Santharia) + y (recently Fox showed an interest in developing for Nybelmar) = z (maybe Fox would be willing to give us a hand with those resource maps?)

(iii) That said, I do love Koldar's old version. Marvelous cartography - plus has that splendid "ancient" feel! Two suggestions on how to use them: First, I agree with your proposal. Secondly, we can always say that these maps reflected the landscape before the Breaking - and attribute any new changes to the Breaking.

I hope the above makes sense! Gotta run now! :)

And Mira, I cannot say how relieved I am that you have taken it upon yourself to see this project through. A very big thank you!
« Last Edit: 18 November 2009, 21:07:56 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged

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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #4 on: 18 November 2009, 22:22:08 »

Go, go! You said you have exams, so begone, thou wicked spirit!

'n yeah, we'll need to list the proposed changes.
First on the list, of course, would be adding settlements to newly developed regions and nations;
-all of the M. Kaerath,
-the Faen, Tarshiin, and Trumarim regions,
-as well as whatever might be lacking in Zhun (i didn't quite kep track of those, i'm afraid.)

For landscape changes; elaboration of local features mostly. Also, i have a wish-list, consisting of;
-expanding the Metherinin river (the one going into the DW) to spring forth from the Germon Doilth,
-adding side-branches and detail to the Eckumin the big eastern river of the Kazai Morchini,
-and my most mayor request; the transformation of a large section of the Trumatyr surface realm into irrigated fertile lands, instead of the barren area it is now.
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Avrah Kehabhra

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #5 on: 19 November 2009, 03:48:53 »

Responding to the issues you raised on a point-by-point basis, before I forget what I wanted to say ;)

[1] Adding settlements - no objections here.

[2] Landscape changes:
(i) expansion of River Metherinin: agreed
(ii) River Ecumin: Which one is it? I don't see any eastern rivers in Kaerath. Aside from Metherinin, there is only one - flowing into the western shores - which has two branches. Are you referring to the shorter, uppermost branch as Ecumin?
(iii) Re Trumarim related changes: Can you mark up your proposals on the map? I do not object in principle to transforming some of the desert into fertile land, but I would have to approve the extent of the changes. I do wish to keep some of the desert, in order to separate the Inami from Tarshiin.

The original idea was to have a barren surface above which no tribe occupied or wanted to conquer, with this rich dwarven realm underneath. What you are proposing sounds like a major course-change to the initial vision. Please, can you elaborate why you are heading in this new direction?

[3] I had come up with names for a lot of the rivers in west / southwest Nybelmar. Do you have a list of those names? There should be a sticky somewhere on the forum. Plus, a lot of those should be mentioned either in the Krean Men or Grand Krath entry.

[4] Maybe you could do a very rough mark-up for all these changes before we proceed with this discussion?

If there is anything else, feel free to send me a PM :)
« Last Edit: 19 November 2009, 04:05:06 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged

"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #6 on: 19 November 2009, 04:01:36 »

Uhm, yeah, that would be WEST :P I think i mentioned it as the name for the great river (its named after a dragon after all) so that implies the main part, and the longer, southward branch. I can't find that list of yours yet, although you do mention it in the "new names" topic. Sounds there as if you didn't put it online yet..
 
Also, i'm pretty sure the Trumarim were supposed to have large aboveground holdings more or less from the start. They need far more food than cave-farming would allow for, considering their population density. Not an issue actually, i'll draw up a quick map on the subject tomorrow.
edit-> I might only have mentioned that in my conversations with Judy though

Progress update->I completed the bare map, in General Santharian Style, with coasts and rivers as they were. I'll start a layer with the known cities, and get to preparing some basic copy-n-paste mountains and such for easy adding later on, but this is as far as i can go for now.
« Last Edit: 19 November 2009, 10:22:16 by Miraran Tehuriden » Logged

Avrah Kehabhra

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Decipher Ziron
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« Reply #7 on: 19 November 2009, 06:51:15 »

Um, besides naming all the settlements I have envisioned in my respective little alcoves, at present, have a few requests for Tarshiin and the immediate area:

- In the Western Bay: A few (literally a handful) of miniscule islands that change hands between Tiquaitan and Tarshiinites, also acting as a focal point for alot of the Naval warfare in the Gondol-Tarshiin conflicts

- A modification in the shape of the Southern Amorai Forest so that Tarshiin's North border is shared with both Amorai and Lillivear (inconvenient waging a war through someone else's country, no?)

- A visual representation of the rivers that run through the Kimka province (just a mixture of various intercepting streams, rivers, tributaries etc.)...I can point out where that is quite easily

That's all the occurs to me right now, but I suppose a few of my requests should be approved of/vetoed by my compatriots before I get too involved in it all!
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #8 on: 19 November 2009, 22:38:11 »

[1] Deci, I don't get this: "A modification in the shape of the Southern Amorai Forest so that Tarshiin's North border is shared with both Amorai and Lillivear (inconvenient waging a war through someone else's country, no?)"

What is to be changed exactly? Who is sharing what with whom? I don't understand...

PS: The Amorai ARE the Lillivear.

[2] Ok with the first and last of your proposals.
« Last Edit: 19 November 2009, 22:40:07 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged

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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #9 on: 20 November 2009, 00:50:08 »

I think he meanth Amorai and Morchini?

Oh, and mapling has been aded to my above post, turned out it took me only five minutes to whip it up.
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Avrah Kehabhra

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« Reply #10 on: 20 November 2009, 05:58:22 »

Yeah sorry! Was quite tired when I was writing that!

I meant for the southernmost forest to be made thinner and longer so that the Northern Border of Tarshiin is shared with both the Amorai and MORCHINI!¬
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #11 on: 20 November 2009, 17:47:07 »

Well, no... :P The whole point of the original sketch/concept was to separate the Morchini from the  "Fareasterns", now the Tarshiinites. This is in fact a major cause for the conflict between the Amorai and the Morchini - no matter what army is sent to conquer the border, the Amorai will not let them pass. There is a good reason for this - which has more to do with the Amorai than the Tarshiin or the Morchini. Once the Amorai entry is written it will all make perfect sense - and will tie in the dark lord of Essalui Thareliath as well. Just be patient ;)
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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #12 on: 20 November 2009, 18:08:47 »

One of these days those "good reasons" should be given to me and Deci Coren.. that way we can avoid stumbling into your evil master plan all the time, and still get our people where we need them (seeing as we're trying to  map the migration and descent of the tribes 'n all)

But i wont have to worry about that untill moday,. seeing as i'm away for the weekend. Sayonara!
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Avrah Kehabhra

"The whole POINT of Nybelmar is that no one has any idea whats going on, overly long entries keep it that way." - Decipher Ziron
Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #13 on: 20 November 2009, 20:09:11 »

Mira, I am trying to do the best I can. Short of writing all those entries, I cannot list every single thing that I had in mind when the areas were marked the way they are.

I think you are being a bit unfair.

(i) I am not constantly pulling random restrictions out of my hat.

(ii) I am not asking everyone to stop developing until I make a full return to Santharia: You and Deci were pretty much given free reign to develop the tribes as you wished, confined only by the territories I marked and the general concept I jotted down in the Construction Zone/relevant area threads. The principle is no different from rewriting old entries. If a settlement was originally described as a mid-sized town, it is one thing to elaborate on it, give the town character and history etc in a rewrite and quite another to convert it into the biggest metropolis of the area.

(iii) I certainly am not being a control freak. I am not trying to control every aspect of the continent and pretending that this is all due to some master plan, even though in truth I had no ideas for that particular thing. I am not asking for every single ant to be counted, measured and signed off by me before it goes into the Compendium. I have been honest all the way through. Eg when Decipher came up with his plans for the Tarshiinites, I was very up front that I didn't really have anything fleshed out for that tribe and that so long as he kept a "far-eastern feel" he could do whatever he wanted. Ditto for Fox's Kayrhem revision. Ditto for the Melaimad region.

(iv) Most importantly, in this instance, I am not suddenly popping out of thin air, asking you to completely redo something that you worked on for months because it doesn't feel right for me or "stepping on your toes". Do realise that, if anything, it is the other way around. There was an existing map. The reason for such a map was to integrate old discussions and development ideas visually without having to explain every single one. And I did specifically reserve the Amorai entry, signalling that I had plans for that tribe. Deci came by to ask if the borders could be changed.

If somebody came up to Artimidor and asked to completely redo the southern border of Manthria with Brendolan, I imagine he might say one of two things: (a) Okay. I didn't really have anything specific in mind when I drew that border. Let's open your idea for discussion and see if that would be a more logical border. OR (b) Well, I am willing to compromise on Klinsor but as regards the Tolonian Heath there was a reason I included that in Manthria. I ahve a really cool myth in mind about that area that I want to write one day which would tie in really well with the rest of Manthria.

I think that is a reasonable response. Short of writing the story, how can he really explain what that reason is? Short of putting post-it notes on every bend of every border, on every mountain, stream, town, port, how can he compile an exhaustive list of all the "caveats" he had in mind? Frankly, expecting me to compile a complete and exhaustive list is unrealistic.

(v) Note that I am not saying that Deci was wrong to make such a request in the first place. That is what threads like this and the Construction Zone are there for. And I am glad that we have those threads - otherwise development would be a lot less interesting. I can only come up with so many ideas myself - the more we brainstorm the merrier.

And Deci did specifically say that he was listing his ideas so that other Nybelmar developers could approve or veto each item before he fleshed them out. That is exactly what I have done. I have disagreed with the suggestion about the Amorai borders and accepted all the other proposals raised in this thread. For goodness's sake, what is so unreasonable about that?

Snide remarks don't help.

Coren out.
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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
Decipher Ziron
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« Reply #14 on: 22 November 2009, 09:48:57 »

The border change was not a necessity for the Kazai-Tarshiin conflicts, since there is still the Morchini passage through Germon Doilth to the Specteres and the Tarshiinite Navy would be more than capable of appearing somewhere along the coastline. It would have been more of a convenience thing than anything else :D

I do think that at least an inkling of what is so important amongst these borders (i.e. these mentionings of Dark Lords and Shadow Wars that seem to crop up without explanation) would be useful to us, before we started writing our own mental plans and we end up conflicting with something else.

As has always been the case, the best thing for us to do has always been to lay our cards on the table with what we want to do, since unpublished agendas from any party in our continent's development is going to cause inevitable toe stepping somewhere along the line.

Deci
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