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Author Topic: Ounía - The Defining Part of the Magical Aura  (Read 14119 times)
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #15 on: 19 July 2010, 02:11:24 »

Hi - just a reminder that the grey section is not meant to be uploaded:

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NOTE2: I have included the section of Properties and Qualities more as reference than anything else. This section created the most confusion, and I hope the new section I added--Spheres and Intensity--has obviated the need for this one. I include it anyway as a means of reference (it is grayed out as a way of showing that I don't mean for it to be included in the actual entry).


:)
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #16 on: 19 July 2010, 10:28:29 »

In that case scratch the one comment I made concerning that section from necessary changes.

Edit1:  I don't really understand the purpose of "greying" the section out instead of outright deleting it, but alright.  Before this gets blarrowed you should physically delete it from the entry.  

Edit2:  For convenience's sake, I double checked and only the first quote and the last quote I mentioned are in that greyed out section.  Everything else still stands as things that need to be addressed.  
« Last Edit: 20 July 2010, 09:04:40 by Drasil Razorfang » Logged
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« Reply #17 on: 21 August 2010, 11:41:21 »

Bump.  I'll give Rayne another couple of days before I go ahead and finish this myself. 
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #18 on: 21 August 2010, 17:38:54 »

The best way to reach her would be to send her an email :) (If you don't know her email address, drop me a PM)
« Last Edit: 21 August 2010, 18:02:12 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged

"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #19 on: 19 February 2011, 11:52:21 »

From somewhere in the inky blackness of another night in the sullen, cavernous towers comprising the Magic Forums, a tender sound rustles away the silence. Nearly indistinguishable, it sounds at first like dry grass, dry paper, then the soft sough of a bird--a paper bird, that whistles through the towers and unfolds elegantly in a letter, written neatly by the hand of an elven scholar:

Dear Drasil,

Please find the revision of my entry included. Forgive me that it has been so long, and in my travels I have left so much undone.

Thank you for the compliments on my prose. In an entry such as this one, so recondite and yet also so rudimentary, I wished to elucidate, not complicate, to the best of my ability. I still believe the entry as a whole is somewhat confusing, but perhaps there are aspects of the content that no manipulation of form can clearly present.

In regards to your critique of the second and third sphere: I believe that the explanation of these spheres, particularly the second sphere, has perhaps been taken too far, and is somewhat deceptive. It assumes a rather insistent physical dimension I don't feel is worth credence. Oun and cár’áll are not, in the end, entirely physical--if they are physical at all. We say that cár’áll is the "natural astral aura of all things or beings"-- we call it "magical energy" and say it is an "aura." If cár’áll is really such a spiritual or incorporeal entity, why do we say it is made up of "parts" that are so stubbornly physical, and act in such stubbornly physical ways?

In world of ounia and cár’allia I envision is less physical and more spiritual. I feel we need to move away from the visualization of ounia as physical balls connected by strings, and move more toward a conceptualization that presses against the laws of physics a little. Let us not say that xeuá may be long or short depending on how far away two ounia are. Let us instead talk about the quality of that xeuá, give it a binary quality that allows a simpler, cleaner, and yet more intriguing view of Ximaxian magic that, like the magic of Nybelmar, makes us reconsider possibilities.

Forgive me if I seem to pontificate. What I propose is not the complete restructuring of a magic system--even the explanation of the second sphere as physical units being moved into close proximity is still somewhat valid as a elementary conceptualization--but a tweaking that adds a level of simplicity and sophistication to this system of magic--a system that is unfortunately somewhat confused by the collection of so many interpretations, misinterpretations, and reinterpretations.

I intend to revise those entries that need revising--most blatantly the Xeuá; the fallacies in that entry are purely mine, and I take responsibility for emending them.

Please let me know your thoughts, and if you would like to discuss this in some more immediate medium. I am also not opposed to bringing in other magic experts and novices into the fold. It is important, I think, to view our subject, not as some esoteric and high-brow pursuit of a select few, but the plenary goal of a community, of a kind of guild in which those who know should ensure knowledge to those who wish to learn.

I eagerly await your reply.

Sincerely,
Rayne
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Alexandre Scriabin
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« Reply #20 on: 19 February 2011, 15:44:31 »

Quote
In regards to your critique of the second and third sphere: I believe that the explanation of these spheres, particularly the second sphere, has perhaps been taken too far, and is somewhat deceptive. It assumes a rather insistent physical dimension I don't feel is worth credence. Oun and cár’áll are not, in the end, entirely physical--if they are physical at all. We say that cár’áll is the "natural astral aura of all things or beings"-- we call it "magical energy" and say it is an "aura." If cár’áll is really such a spiritual or incorporeal entity, why do we say it is made up of "parts" that are so stubbornly physical, and act in such stubbornly physical ways?

If I might try conversing with the All Mighty Rayne about magic and propose a solution for these apparent rifts in concept that you have highlighted, I would propose that the rifts are there and  they are appropriate, because the practice of Ximaxian magic should provide some leeway for personal magical philosophy.

Did that make sense, or should I try being more specific or give examples?

By the way, this is a prolific revision and I would like to see this up so that you can go on and revise the Xeua entry.
« Last Edit: 19 February 2011, 15:48:52 by Alexandre Scriabin » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: 19 February 2011, 16:25:55 »

If I might try conversing with the All Mighty Rayne about magic...
I do not know if your intention in the use of this epithet was to be condescending or obsequious; neither will elicit favor from me, and neither portrays you in a flattering light. With the utmost sincerity, I advise that, for the sake of civil and egalitarian discussion, you avoid such address.

As to your point...

My lover's eyes are like the sun, because like the sun, they are bright and fill the world with light; but my lover's eyes do not cause UV radiation, and I do not burn my retina to gaze into them.

My imagination is like a bird, because like a bird, my imagination soars freely; but my imagination does not run into windows or relieve itself on your newly-cleaned car.

Analogies and metaphors can be more than just convenient learning tools; they can also be poignant and thoughtful. However, it is important to note where the similarities stop so as to not to cause any misunderstandings.
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Alexandre Scriabin
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« Reply #22 on: 19 February 2011, 19:46:22 »

I do not know if your intention in the use of this epithet was to be condescending or obsequious; neither will elicit favor from me, and neither portrays you in a flattering light. With the utmost sincerity, I advise that, for the sake of civil and egalitarian discussion, you avoid such address.

As to your point...

My lover's eyes are like the sun, because like the sun, they are bright and fill the world with light; but my lover's eyes do not cause UV radiation, and I do not burn my retina to gaze into them.

My imagination is like a bird, because like a bird, my imagination soars freely; but my imagination does not run into windows or relieve itself on your newly-cleaned car.

Analogies and metaphors can be more than just convenient learning tools; they can also be poignant and thoughtful. However, it is important to note where the similarities stop so as to not to cause any misunderstandings.

Um... That was a compliment Rayne. I've been reading some of your entries for a while now and the reference was a playful gesture towards the magnitude of your magical expertise. I think I can speak for several of us here when I say that we kind of idolize you, and miss you when you're gone.

As for your reference to analogies, I am kind of confused. Would you mind elucidating me as to what that has to do with the topic?
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« Reply #23 on: 19 February 2011, 23:10:19 »

Rayne ... an elegantly written entry as per normal, full of information about magic. Just one question ... and this is about the very last word of the entry ... 'stipulation'. Does stipulation fit there? I thought speculation might have fitted there better, but I'm not sure. A point of Aura to you for this entry, Rayne, and I hope we get many more such entries in the future ... maybe we could also work on getting the Ximax City entry finished?  cool
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #24 on: 20 February 2011, 00:47:56 »

Too grand a title, I think, Mr. Scriabin. Idolization is certainly too much, and I am not deserving. I will say that I appreciate such a feeling has not deterred your inquiries, which I will gladly address:

Let me pull back a bit from my analogy of analogies. If I understand you right, you bring up the point that the metaphor doesn't matter so much, because Ximaxian magic as a philosophical system allows room for interpretation. However, the problem we have on the site is that, because of a certain metaphor used, people are explaining magic in a way that contradicts how we see the system to actually work. People have, to some degree, taken the metaphor too far, and now attribute properties and qualities to essential elements--like Ounia and Xeua--that they do not necessarily have.

Of course there is room for these interpretations, but unfortunately assuming properties of this type cause contradiction down the road. Magic is already somewhat obscure, which is perhaps why we have so few people who know the system or are even willing to begin learning it at this point.

I will say, also, that when personal philosophies stray too far, they form new philosophies of magic--ones which are separate from the Ximaxian system. I have no problem with people cogitating upon a personalized system, but my task it to create more or less a consistent and demotic philosophy.

I hope my point is a tad more lucid now. Let me know if you would prefer further discussion.


Dek, thank you! You are completely right--good catch! I have changed the word. And yes, I suppose it is time to return to that looming project at long last.
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #25 on: 23 February 2011, 05:49:13 »

Ok, read the whole entry as well now again, some comments here, Rayne!

- Basically this is quite a brilliant entry, covering pretty much everything that is important to know about ounía. It's not the easiest topic, so it requires some thinking, but I guess everything that we've discussed dozens of times in the past made it into these explanations and is written as precise as it can be - and there are even more interesting things that open up the imagination for more magical ideas! :)

- The title could have a short explanation as the caption, and we usually have the entry written for the singular word. Like: "The Oún, the Elemental Part of the Magical Aura" or something like that...

- What could perhaps be stressed a bit more in the explanation of the sphere parts is the tendency of the ounía to revert back to the original state the lower the sphere - as a rule of thumb. But obviously the "meta-state" is important here as well.

- Speaking about that meta-state: I see that in the reply to the post there were also questions about the meta-state - and indeed I think as well this isn't explained very well looking at this entry alone. Maybe you can try to explain the meta-state thingy a bit better as you did in your replies further down (even if it's only done in a footnote)?

- The Retention section is very interesting! Though it is more of an own discipline perhaps, which can also be intuitively mastered I'd say - gifted people who can predict past and future might be able to see via interpreting ounía retention (technically described). Or maybe "mirroring"/"reflection" or something of that sort would fit better, so that it is implied that future and past can show in an oún. "Retention" sounds more like an oún only has the past state in it to be interpreted.

Cool idea at any rate to describe the art of clairvoyance that way - though of course a Ximaxian technical approach cannot compete with the intuition of those who just read the - for them - obvious signs due to their "gift".

Ok, so far my comments, Rayne, and an aura +1 for the super detailed entry, which should finally make it on site within the next weeks I hope!  cool
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #26 on: 27 February 2011, 03:43:32 »

I believe I have integrated all the comments into the entry, though please take a look an ensure I have done this correctly and to a satisfactory degree. And thank you for taking a look at this entry, Artimidor!
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #27 on: 06 March 2011, 00:39:51 »

Great entry, Rayne! Wow - reading over this again makes me feel nostalgic ;) I recall the original version - how long ago was that? 4, 5 years? - and the ensuing discussions, and its various re-incarnations over the years...

I think I mentioned this when I uri-checked your Enchantment entry last year, but I am blown away by the concept of meta-states! I just cannot believe this concept has been missing for so long! Like most great ideas, it seems so obvious as soon as it is presented... Not only does it provide such a neat explanation for something we have for a long time sensed but struggled to express, but also because it opens up so many possibilities! Definitely an "Aha! That's it!" moment :D

I especially like the suggestion that it is the meta-state which creates the separation, "veil", between individual carallia. (Or perhaps I should say: "which creates the illusion of indiviual carallia?) Speaking of this, I think I may have spotted a typo in that paragraph?

Quote
Links outside of the cár’áll are identified for not only being ahm in nature, but having a ecuán [should this read "xeuan" instead?] meta-state that makes them extremely difficult to change to soór. Ahm links are considered to be part of the cár’áll if they have an ecuán meta-state that makes them easily changed to soór, and so these links have a greater potential to affect the cár’áll. Spells in the third sphere must not only turn these outside links from ahm to soór, but change the meta-state of the link from xeuán to ecuán (therefore making them part of the cár’áll).

Looking forward to your xeua entry!




EDIT: Just noticed this:

Quote
Wind mages equal and sometimes surpass the skill at which (with which?) the archschools can predict.
« Last Edit: 08 March 2011, 08:56:57 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged

"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #28 on: 09 March 2011, 04:17:34 »

Some small things only, which aren't properly English:

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Because the meta-state (or the state of the links which determines how readily the it will change) are ecua, or passive, they have little stay-power.

Quote
While the meta-state are still ecua, as in sphere I, the number of links changed makes the effects slightly longer-lasting.

Guess other than that we can add this entry to our collection of key entries on site!  thumbup Finally :)
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #29 on: 10 March 2011, 13:30:36 »

Forgive this request, but may we delay this entry a little longer? It might be helpful to integrate Coren's piece on Properties, and I have a few lingering issues I would like to untangle before I potentially dig myself into a deeper hole.
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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