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Author Topic: City of Ximax: Discussion  (Read 68799 times)
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #180 on: 14 March 2011, 08:52:05 »

You've got a fantastic start! Perhaps I can help get the creative juices flowing.

I'm curious about who the tanners are--who generally works as a tanner, and what is the culture like around the tannery? If I go to tanners bend, what can I expect to see? This may involve a little research. The Wikipedia article on tanning might be useful (especially if you needed more reason to be repulsed at the tanning process. Hehe).

Consider looking at some modern-day tanners, like here and here and here. I assume the vats are used in various stages of the tanning process, including dyeing.

Would I see farmers or shepherds trading the skins of dead livestock for currency? Artists of the sartorial persuasion browsing the goods? Would the tanneries here be outdoor? Indoor? Both?

Let me know if you need more guidance. I think you have a really good start--infused with a few more details, and this piece will be ready to go!
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« Reply #181 on: 14 March 2011, 11:25:28 »

Did you know?:  The tanner's guild has set up 'public privies' - not entirely altruistically, as they need large quantities of urine as a mordant/fixative for their craft - throughout the Ximaxian main residential quarters.

:)  I'm sure you can do something with that....
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #182 on: 14 March 2011, 15:23:06 »

Rayne, I dreamt about the Remnants of old Ximax this morning, I'd like to claim them also..  grin

I have a few questions though which I'm about to write up - and I'll need to read the written stuff also first.

The cemeteries are "outside" , where is outside and could I have not at least one cemetery somewhere inside, between two boroughs?

Need to find out where the Old Remnants are also.
« Last Edit: 18 March 2011, 19:21:55 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #183 on: 14 March 2011, 16:22:01 »

I'm sorry, but I have to take back my willingness to write one, two or three pieces for Ximax. I would have loved to be part of it and I have quite a few ideas already for the cemeteries and the Old Remnants, including myth. I started to update the map, find out again where the gate is (there is not much info in the academy entry), add the names to the burrows etc...

But, as I see, you are going a far way away from the old entry. I always thought, and we tell it every newbie, that , if need arises to change an entry, to update it, it can be done, but we need to keep as much from the old entry as possible.

I have not yet read through all the boroughs, but while finding out, where the cemeteries could be located, I checked the old entry, wanted to propose, to use some of the old names Xarl invented also. I'm not sure, if this is done, and if the borouhgs contain roughly what Xarl had in mind.

But, I see also the question about walls:

Should the City of Ximax be surrounded by walls? If so, how high/thick?


Quote
The Inner City's wall is as far as most casual visitors to Ximax are allowed to go, as the Outer City is very nearly being a separate city from the Inner.
Quote
The city walls are visible from long away, as they are the only raised structure for fores around, save the occasional farm

I think the answer lies in the old entry, why discuss this? It is not free for disposal.

Same climate. Rayne, you wrote up an entirely  different one, here is the original, why not keep it, I see no necessity to change it.

Quote
Climate. The temperature here varies immensely with the seasons. From the blistering inferno of the summer, to the chill breezes of autumn, to the frigid, icy winters, and to the unceasing deluge that is spring; Ximax is never entirely comfortable. Still, a certain peace is always present. Though some of the guilds maintain boats for the typical spring downpours, there is a rare calmness in falling rain in Ximax. Likewise, in oppressive heat or cold, the mind almost literally flees to higher thought. And though the weather in autumn is not particularly pleasant, the unique beauty of the ripening fields and orchards cannot be denied... (The chronicler apologizes for rambling on.) Return to the top

Sorry again, but as I do not want to spent time discussing this and as I do not want to be the bad girl again, to be somebody who is interrupting  what others do, I better quit, though  disappointed.

Let's go and kill some monsters in a WoW.  evil
« Last Edit: 18 March 2011, 19:21:27 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #184 on: 14 March 2011, 23:28:41 »

I was inspired to add a few bits of Lore for the City. It more affects the Academy itself (and perhaps could be mentioned in that entry) and thought it was neat. I do not know if the law and City Watch has been mentioned, but I think it is important that the Academy be separate from the city in regards to law enforcement and authority. I also cannot let the entry pass without mentioning Thalambath, Ximax's chief rival!  :D

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Myth/Lore

Ximax is often called the "City of Mages" because it is considered the center of high learning in Southern Sarvonia. The Ximaxian Magical Academy is the primary school of magic for most human students of the art, with other races accounting for a very small number as well. However, Ximax is not the only city of magic on the continent. It shares this distinction with the lesser known, although not lesser in power, Thalambath, in the southern Truban province. Thalam's Temple of the Arcane is said to be Ximax's chief rival in magical and academic learning. Both cities and schools are home to powerful magi who teach gifted students their secret craft. It is an open secret that magi from both cities operate clandestine groups in order to spy and sabotage each others' works and projects.

The City of Ximax has its own city watch, but the typical Watch has no authority within the Magical Academy itself. It is told that the Academy, in its infancy centuries ago, was under the authority of the city governance system and that the magi were held accountable under Ximaxian City law. This changed during XXX when one of the Academy's arch-magi was charged with the crime of murdering his family during a fit of jealous rage. The trial system at the time was unprepared to consider and use evidence of a magical nature since the court officers were not magi themselves. As a result, the mage was put to the death more out of fear than actual proven guilt. This resulted in the Academy pushing for reform and creating its own justice system separate from the city law so magi would be held accountable under their own peers if a crime involved magic. Today, the City and Academy have separate court systems, law enforcement (using the Academy's Fire Sisters) and punishment policies.
« Last Edit: 14 March 2011, 23:33:05 by Azhira Styralias » Logged

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« Reply #185 on: 15 March 2011, 12:39:56 »

It is late, and I need to get myself to bed very quickly, but I wanted to respond very quickly to your points, Talia.

A significant portion of my Santharian life consists of going back through old entries in the realm of magic and trying to make sense of them. Xarl and Tarq, as you remember, were large players in this arena. They were clever, witty, and enchanting, but if experience has taught me nothing, they were also fairly haphazard. Their theories of magic were inconsistent, uninformed by advice or counsel.

This entry on Ximax is significantly different from the old entry. In order to better lay out the city and explain its arrangement, we have relied on the creation of new histories. I re-wrote the climate because the climate Xarl proposed made very little sense given the geography. I suggest you reach his description, read mine, and then look at the map to determine which is a better fit.

I agree that, when renovating entries, much of the content should be preserved. However, consider an older entry on the site that proposes or implies the Caelereth is globe. We significantly changed the entry concerning the academy as well. Consider that Xarl proposed 11 towers, including a tower of light, darkness, the mind, summoning, and, of all things, magic (apparently the Magical Academy of Ximax wasn't quite magical enough...).

I am happy to engage with you on this issue, and I invite others to join in. I would like to work this out, and I would really love to see you compose the piece for which you had some ideas. My argument is, in short, that the deviations I have made away from the original entry were necessary to preserve verisimilitude and consistency with the rest of the world.

PS: Thank you for writing up some Myth/Lore, Azhira! I promise I will read it over and integrate it as soon as I am able!
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #186 on: 16 March 2011, 07:01:59 »

Rayne, I wanted to avoid such a discussion. Maybe I find some time tomorrow.
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« Reply #187 on: 17 March 2011, 11:04:05 »

In that case, perhaps I should ask what you wanted to come out of your stating your objection. I will accommodate you if I can.
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« Reply #188 on: 17 March 2011, 17:42:37 »

Actually, nothing. I just feared that the discussion about the issue takes more time than writing an entry (which I thought I could squeeze in quite quickly) and I did not really want to invest the time. . But as I felt not well with not using as much stuff as possible from Xarl, I thought the best solution is to retreat. (Maybe just my fear that once I'm gone somebody comes and alters my entries in a way I would not like drove me to act this way ;) )It is not so, that I'm objecting it very much, but I didn't want to be part in this, without bad feelings. But as so often, I can't express what I really want/feel well.

I'll try to get back to you later, answering your questions.
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« Reply #189 on: 18 March 2011, 00:28:47 »

@Rayne, answer to your post from above.

I know you are checking this and that and I surely did not want to say, that you are neglecting something, be it old history or anything else. I know, we changed the academy to a high degree, but we discussed this ages also, did not just skip it.

Here I think, some things were given free to change which did not necessarily have to be changed:
-  The old layout of the town was not taken into account, I see no attempt to even have the names preserved. I did not check, if Xarls plan of the town made sense, but an idea would have been, to take his three outer parts and divide it in boroughs, etc.. to adjust the new ideas to what was here and change, what really did not make sense. Keeping the names would have been a small tribute to Xarl.

-- I mentioned the town walls already.

- Climate: Of course, yours makes more sense, but I like Xarl's better. There pictures are jumping in my head, heat pressing down on the city, icicles covering it in winter. We are in a fantasy world and with the orb in the vicinity you could explain every crazy weather. Just say, it amplifies every trend... The magic practised in the city and the academy could have an unhealthy influence, or the magi trying to change the weather.. if you want to find an explanation for the weather, you could come up with one.

But, I don't want to stir up a discussion now, let it be as it is, it is ok.

I'll write up the cemeteries, and if not Azhira wants to do the remnants, I would volunteer also (or Azhira could take some of my ideas)

**********

I have a few questions to the layout:

Is that plan you did the right one, do you have turned it around? Is the gate district in the east, and B6 and B5 in the West ,the academy also in the west, outside the city?

Are roads between every burrow?

Where should the cemetery "Cold Grounds " be located?
Deklitch! Could be the cemetery for the rich ones be in their borough? Inside the outer wall to the outer borough perhaps, or in a small area somewhere in a corner? (Or two)

The old remnants, are they like a ring around the academy? Could part of that area be a cemetery?
« Last Edit: 18 March 2011, 19:19:54 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #190 on: 18 March 2011, 10:08:10 »

Hey Talia,

I'm happy to have the rich people's cemetary in the Middleton burrough. I gave you a couple of thoughts in a message I sent you. I'm also happy to change my description of the burrough to accommodate the cemetary if you'd like me to.
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« Reply #191 on: 18 March 2011, 12:09:52 »

Azhira
I have finally had a chance to read through your Myth/Lore, and I like it! The first paragraph seems to be more associated with Myth/Lore, though (and I hope you won't mind me opening it up so that others can add other Myth/Lore to the city). The second paragraph seems to be slightly separate, though, and I wonder if we shouldn't make another section--perhaps one on Governance, to accommodate it. Let me know your thoughts!


Talia
If you do not wish to engage in a discussion, you do not need to, but it is not only my task but also my sincere desire to address your unhappiness. Although I cannot promise that I can ease your distress, I hope I can at least provide insight on my decisions.

Let me say that you needn't worry about Xarl's name ever fading from Santharia. Xarl made certain that he would always remain a part of Santharia--he literally wrote himself into its history. He has a person entry of himself written up. I do not worry about Xarl ever being forgotten, and I hope you won't, either.

Layout: When I came across Xarls layout, which included the academy in the center and an inner city surrounded by walls and the three sections of an outer city, my immediate reaction was how diminutive the city seemed to be. If you read the descriptions, I can't help but get the feeling that the city he envisioned was rather small, unfitting for a city of the size, caliber, and fame of Ximax. I wanted to increase the boroughs, and attribute names to them reflective of the city's dwarven influence. Many of the borough names are derived from Thergerim.

Walls: I also had a feeling that the inner walls were erected to enclose the Towers more than anything, but given the Academy was moved, it seemed appropriate to remove the walls to the inner city. When considering the logistics of the city, I think it is important to keep in mind that Ximax as a whole doesn't necessarily have much use for walls, thought of course this doesn't mean the city would not have them.

Climate: The orb is contained in a shield where its influences are minimized. In addition, with so much magical energy, why would the magical inhabitants settle for such a chaotic, harsh climate? Even if the orb began leaking through its shield, it strikes me as strange that mages wouldn't seek to make the climate temperate through magical means.

Questions:
As to your layout questions, you are correct. The Gate is to the east and boroughs 5 and 6 are to the west, along with the Academy.

In terms of roads, I do not see the boroughs having definitive boundaries. It is like the boroughs in Pittsburgh, where Squirrel Hill turns into Shadyside without much warning or notice--you just suddenly realize that the scenery has become a little different. Or you could also compare them to New York's neighborhoods, where the border between Harlem, Upper West Side, and Morningside all kind of blur together. The boroughs in Ximax I envisioned as having fluid borders, though if you (or anyone else) had a different vision, let me know and perhaps we can address this.

My mind is still fuzzy on the details, but from the loose image in my mind, I seem to recall the cemeteries being to the north. The remnants of old Ximax lie to the west, as the city used to ring the Academy.

Please let me know if anything seems amiss or hazy, and I will do my best to clarify.

And on a serious note: Talia, no one will ever forget you. You, like Ximax, or immortalized here. Forgive me that I have been insensitive to your concerns of preservation. I am very much of a school of thought that says to do it over or replace it if it's inaccurate or obviated. I expect, even encourage, developers to re-write any entries of mine that are wrong (though I should hope they would ask me to make sure I didn't have plans to re-write it myself!).

When I am gone, I cannot claim Santharia as my own. What we gave to Santharia--all our wild, creative energy--does not live on in the things we composed, but the ideas and ambitions we fostered. In the end, it is enough for me to know that something I made was a building block for something else, something better, even if that something better does not even mention my name. When I am gone, the legacy I hope to leave behind is a seed of thought that others take to fruition, and perhaps a tinge of pride felt when a developer can say they knew me, that we wrote together, and that we created truly amazing things.
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #192 on: 18 March 2011, 15:59:35 »

Rayne, thanks for your long answer!

I don't fear, that I will be forgotten ;), but that my creations (mainly the Shendar) might be altered in a way which I would not favour.


Layout:
That the academy would be outside was clear, we defined that in the academy entry. The layout of Xarl, is it then still reflected in the old remnants?

Looking at your picture, I thought there might be streets between the boroughs, that would be especially possible with a complete new reconstruction after the old city was destroyed. But that is not of any concern to me. (But where are major roads ?)

Walls: I don't insist or so on walls, but:

Why should a town like Ximax not need townwalls? I doubt, that it could be protected purely with magic. And seeing how many raging wars we have, I would feel much saver with a townwall. Wild dangerous animals might be chased away through a simple spell, but that has to be maintained also, and would be a wall not be easier to have?

--> How was Ximax rebuild, the inner city first , existing like this for a few hundred years, the outer city then growing slowly, maybe with an expansion burst in a peaceful time? Growing then again more towards the academy again?

Climate: I don't mind, but yours is a bit boring.... and, you are very confident, what the ability of mages concerns. Especially with so many apprentices there, and youngsters with nonsense in the head..

The orb should not leak, but on the other hand, why are the magical talents stronger in Ximax, are increased?
Wouldn't it be an idea, to combine both climates, yours generally, but occasional outbursts of the wrong climate, especially in burrow 5 and 6? When somethingwent wrong in the academy?

Just a few ideas.
« Last Edit: 18 March 2011, 19:17:55 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #193 on: 18 March 2011, 16:01:09 »

Thanks Dek, I'm coming back to you!


Edit: How big is Ximax, how many inhabitants, how many strals in diameter?
« Last Edit: 18 March 2011, 18:37:39 by Ta'lia of the Seven Jewels » Logged

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« Reply #194 on: 18 March 2011, 19:08:36 »

Ha! Found the "cold grounds", Azhira has placed them already! Found them shortly after I had thought, that outside of this borough would be a good place! :)

Azhira! I'll need you!

Quote
The Underside does have its uses, despite the nefarious reputation it possesses. Of importance to the city is a shrine of Queprur, "Goddess of the Scythe.” The borough locals call the temple by another name, "The Deader House" or, less respectfully, "The Ratqueen's Hole.” The shrine, located in a slightly more respectful area of the borough, houses a large morgue where the citizens of the city may bring their dead (or dying). Situated almost directly in the center of the borough, the shrine is an imposing structure made of rough, black stone that seems carved of night itself. Pale red windows stained with dust block most sunshine from ever entering the shrine. Inside, the clerics prepare corpses for burial, and inter them behind the borough walls in the massive city cemetery known as the "Cold Ground.” Clerics guard the cemetery at all times lest unsavory dead worshipers rob the graves of their inhabitants. Many whisper that necromancers sometimes haunt the Cold Ground at night, casting spells of sleep upon the guards. This has given rise to rumors of a secret necromancer guild somewhere in the borough, sanctioned by certain mage guilds. Such proof has never been discovered, however, but the rumors never seem to die.

Are there walls on the outside of this borough?
Maybe add, that there is an extra house (name?) where for the dying is cared (for those which can afford it, or everybody?)

I have two suggestions or requests:
1. Not all citizens want to be brought there when dead, surely not the upper class! I plan one or two little cemetaries in middleton itself, with a small shrine for Queprur also. Eventually for the not so upper class, but still rich ones, another place, different in style, perhaps placed in the Old Remnants, on the outskirts of borough 5 or /and six.

So my request would be to change your submission in a way, that in your place goes the majority of the people wiht less income. Who can afford it, goes elsewhere.

2. I don't think that clerics would watch the cold grounds to not be robbed, but payed guards and only an occasional priest/cleric. Or maybe a kind of armed cleric, but it evades me right now, who that could be.
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