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Author Topic: Krean Arcane Arts: Overview (déjà vu?)  (Read 15726 times)
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #15 on: 24 June 2011, 21:24:44 »

Err... yeah.  shocked That was a typo.

But then again, Mister... Why are you uri-checking my posts rather than the entry? :P
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"'Because I say so', I think."
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #16 on: 26 June 2011, 00:39:22 »

Because when you get on a roll, usiually the only thing I can understand are your short comments. rolleyes  Your magic treatises are usually far above my level of understanding.  I'm just a poor unedumacated Remusian afterall.  I don't know nuthin' 'bout them thar majick arts. ;)

But, I'll give this a perusal today.  I'll blame you if my head explodes.
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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #17 on: 27 June 2011, 10:10:57 »

Quote
(vi) All things are interconnected – or as the Krean say: Connected is everything, to everthing else (Savere edor edora).

Second everything is spelled wrong.  Also, is the Krean language supposed to look like Latin?

-The point of the anecdote related by Coren confuses me.  Whose power exactly are we supposed to be impressed by?  If its the Priestesses', they failed so how is that impressive?  A Ximaxian mage would have been able to smite down whats-his-face with ease.  The Priestesses' inability to do so would make them a laughing-stock, not a power to be feared.  Or is the emperor's magic supposed to impress us.  If so, can you please make it more clear that he is casting magic?  Also, if he is the caster, it would be nice to have some background information on the Priestesses so we can better understand his strength.  For someone who is not well-versed in Krean history, having a group of Priestesses doesn't mean much to me.  To explain how powerful they are maybe include a sentence or two of some of the great feats they managed to accomplish using their magic.

-Your story is way to long to be "one of the most frequently quoted statements in Ximaxian history" in my opinion.  I don't think anyone is going to be reciting that entire narrative on a regular basis.  Perhaps create a noticeable division between the first paragraph, which is your assertion, and the rest, which is the evidence supporting it.  The assertion could then be the most quoted statement you mention.

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Thus the people of Nybelmar languished in millennia of peaceful splendour, growing forgetful of the dark times their land once knew. With the protection of the Krean gone, will the ancient evil that plagued Nybelmar rise again and terrorise Caelereth once more?

dun dun dun dunnnnn  ;)

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Magic is complex – so in explaining it clarity is important.

Should be "clearly" or "with clarity".

-I'm having trouble understanding your explanation of the First Wave.  What part of the cycle is the first wave?  When you say our universe is manifesting in one of the expansion cycles do you mean to say exists in an expansion cycle?  Is the First Wave supposed to be the first of these expansion cycles to ever occur?  Is that why its called the First?  If so, how do the Krean know that it will be followed by a return cycle and then rinse and repeat?  Since we exist in the first of these waves and we can't see the future, we have no evidence from previous times to reinforce this claim.

-You say we can think of the First Wave and the Web as the same thing, but your explanation of them has no overlaps.  I'm confused again :/  

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planetary consciousness perceives

Planetary consciousness sounds awkward and is a bit confusing.  Why not just say the "planet's consciousness?"  It's more clear and conveys the same point I believe.

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To continue with the same metaphor, Krean magic can exchange “threads” between Laces (or indeed between one Lace and various unrelated, “floating” clusters). It can also weave one Lace (cord) across, underneath or through a loop in another Lace – either in whole or in part.

Please spell this out in plain Tharian as well so its easier to understand.  When you explain everything using only metaphors people tend to get lost.

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The Krean conceive of an objective reality – i.e. that reality exists independently of our perception of it. Or as a Krean would say: Each reality exists independently of our perception of it. According to the Krean, consciousness pre-supposes existence: There is something – of which I am aware. There is (existence) something (identity) – and I am aware of it (consciousness).

Again, for the sake of clarity can you say something along the lines of "just because we aren't aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  The infinite possibilities of the Web all are real and all exist simultaneously, but we only perceive one" here?

-Cite your quote in the third premise explanation.

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The spirit of debate and enquiry that lied at the heart of the system gave birth to its diversity and depth.

lay, not lied.  Unless the spirit of debate is deceitful...  :P

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One answer is that choice is already considered in the manifestation of a particular reality.

Explain what this answer means before you explain the other inconsistencies it creates.  You lose your reader to confusion if you do not.  Also, what school of thought is the proponent of this idea?

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Secondly, there are choices we make before we enter manifestation. These set the framework within which we choose once in manifestation.

Elaborate on this please so that we can understand what you mean.

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In the same vein, if the Krean mage is to exchange two possibilities, he must first communicate the alternative he has in mind to the First Wave.

Why?  The Web already contains every possibility that could ever happen so why do you need to convey this idea to the First Wave?  The First Wave has already created that idea.  It would seem to me that you just need to go out and "find it" and then erect your "scaffolding" so that you can switch them.

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To paraphrase A.R.,

I'm assuming this is a person whose name we don't have?  If so, can you change the clause that follows it to "an unnamed scholar/person whose blahblah"?

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   The Great Wall of Krath: These unassailable fortifications ward off Benderrath, Vaenath Plains and the Chyrakisth.

How can you ward off a geographical feature like plains?  I think this sentence needs to be reworded.

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Since time does not exist, since there is no barrier separating (the set of possibilities pertaining to) the past from (those pertaining to) the present, there can be no veil separating the past from the mage’s reach: he should be able to replace the past just as he can replace the present.

There should be an 'and' not a comma between the since clauses.

-I think that you should justify all the superlatives you use when referring to the Power of Krean magic.  Saying that its the most powerful magic ever restricts development, ect.  Plus, it is difficult to compare two different magic systems in terms of power.  

Your history section has made me interested in the Krean now.  They seem like they'd be an interesting tribe to work with.  Perhaps I'll have to dabble in that direction at some point in the near future.
« Last Edit: 27 June 2011, 10:13:51 by Drasil Razorfang » Logged
Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #18 on: 01 July 2011, 03:44:37 »

Thank you for your comments Drasil. I've fixed the typos you pointed out and also made several other small adjustments to text. I address below only your requests for clarification and comments with which I disagree. Everything else I have integrated.

1) The Dearan Asaen excerpt has now been expanded. Because I am so familiar with Nybelmar I guess a take a lot of things for granted. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I think the passage should be much more entertaining for the general reader now. What do you think?


Quote
Magic is complex – so in explaining it clarity is important.

Should be "clearly" or "with clarity".


2) No. The sentence is grammatically correct imo. Try it with a comma: "So, in explaining it, clarity is important" or swapping it around "Clarity is important in explaining it." It is ultimately a question of personal style, but all three versions are grammatically acceptable.

3) Re 'First Wave': I clarified the definition to make clear that the "First Wave" is not supposed to be the first ever expansion cycle. Rather: First Wave = manifestation cycle; Second Wave = ascension (return) cycle.

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How do the Krean know that it will be followed by a return cycle and then rinse and repeat?  Since we exist in the first of these waves and we can't see the future, we have no evidence from previous times to reinforce this claim.

That kind of missing the point. :P Can Santharians prove that Ava dreamt the world or Ximaxians the presence of clusters of ounia floating around the universe? It's cosmology - their creation myth. They believed creation to be eternal and cyclic; hence, they reasoned that the First Wave must be followed by a return cycle, and then rinse and repeat.


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You say we can think of the First Wave and the Web as the same thing, but your explanation of them has no overlaps.  I'm confused again :/

Hopefully this should all fall into place once I write the entry on Krean cosmology.  For now all that matters is to get the gist of what the Web means and that it exists within the First Wave (ie FW is larger). The precise relationship between the two is not important at this point. The entry was already long and I did not want to burden it further with stuff that could be explained elsewhere. Would that be okay with you?

4) It now reads:

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The overview states that Krean mages achieve their effects by replacing one piece of reality with another. Familiarity with the concepts of the Web and the Lace allows us to formulate this with greater precision: Krean magic can exchange “threads” between Laces – and indeed between one Lace and various unrelated, “floating” clusters. It can also weave one Lace (cord) across, underneath or through a loop in another Lace – either in whole or in part.


Quote from: Coren
The Krean conceive of an objective reality – i.e. that reality exists independently of our perception of it. Or as a Krean would say: Each reality exists independently of our perception of it. According to the Krean, consciousness pre-supposes existence: There is something – of which I am aware. There is (existence) something (identity) – and I am aware of it (consciousness).

Quote from: Drasil
Again, for the sake of clarity can you say something along the lines of "just because we aren't aware of something, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.  The infinite possibilities of the Web all are real and all exist simultaneously, but we only perceive one" here?

But that's not what Premise 2 (objective reality) is about. What you write relates to Premise 3 (an infinite number of possibilities which exist at once). Where do you want me to insert the clarification you mention - into Premise 2 or 3?

Premise 2 is more about the fact that "wishing won't make it so". Another way to say that reality is objective would be: Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.



Quote
-Cite your quote in the third premise explanation.

5) Quote? Which quote? I'm confused. What would you like me to add to Premise 3?


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The spirit of debate and enquiry that lied at the heart of the system gave birth to its diversity and depth.

lay, not lied.  Unless the spirit of debate is deceitful...


6) Err... yeah. The past tense of 'lie' (in the sense of lying down or lying somewhere) is 'lay' not 'lied' (which is the past tense of telling lies). Typo. 

Though of course one could argue that the spirit of debate is in fact deceitful. grin


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One answer is that choice is already considered in the manifestation of a particular reality.

Quote
Explain what this answer means before you explain the other inconsistencies it creates.  You lose your reader to confusion if you do not.  Also, what school of thought is the proponent of this idea?

Quote
Secondly, there are choices we make before we enter manifestation. These set the framework within which we choose once in manifestation.

Elaborate on this please so that we can understand what you mean.

7) I'm really tempted to leave that entire section out and roll it into a separate sub-entry. Then it can be expanded upon there in the way you mention. What do you think?



Quote
In the same vein, if the Krean mage is to exchange two possibilities, he must first communicate the alternative he has in mind to the First Wave.

Why?  The Web already contains every possibility that could ever happen so why do you need to convey this idea to the First Wave?  The First Wave has already created that idea.  It would seem to me that you just need to go out and "find it" and then erect your "scaffolding" so that you can switch them.

8) The First Wave has already created the desired possibility- but you need to describe it so that the First Wave knows which of the infinite possibilities it has created with the existing reality. Again, this should hopefully become more clear in the entries to follow.

Otherwise, it would be like walking into a supermarket and just saying "I want to switch these," expecting the shop assistant to guess what you have in mind as a substitute. Of course you could do that - but the result might not be the one you were hoping for. I think I touched on this in an entry - I can't quite remember if it was "the Olesian Obstruction" or "the Ardelor Hypothesis".


9) "A.R."? I don't see any "A.R."s ;)


Quote
I think that you should justify all the superlatives you use when referring to the Power of Krean magic.  Saying that its the most powerful magic ever restricts development, ect.  Plus, it is difficult to compare two different magic systems in terms of power

10) A few points:

- As I wrote above when addressing Rayne's comments, the Ancient Krean are designed to represent “the lost, advanced civilisation” theme. So yes, the Ancient Krean were meant to be one of the most powerful magic users in the history of Caelerth – which is precisely why as a developer I’ve made certain that they are extinct today.

- "Saying that its the most powerful magic ever restricts development" -- Yep, I agree. That's why I always try to say "one of the most powerful." Since you and Rayne made the same point, I wonder if I made a slip somewhere which is causing the confusion.

EDIT: Yep. Found it: "an art so sublime and magnificent that none before or after could hold a candle to its brilliance" in the last paragraph. Fixed.

- Also, we are not comparing magic systems in terms of power (eg Ximaxian vs Krean system), but magic users. So, I'm not saying that the Krean system is one of the most powerful systems of magic on the Disk - I'm saying that the Ancient Krean were one of the most powerful magic users of the Disk. Does that make sense?  huh

Thanks again for your comments. I think I have addressed everything?
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"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #19 on: 01 July 2011, 04:22:45 »

Just a few more follow up comments.    :)

Quote
The Valley had been covered with a thick carpet of green, but now the forest floor was being stripped of its trees like a hallway of its carpet

carpet and carpet

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The priestesses wanted to make sure the Emperor did survive, and they were very thorough in their work.

They're not trying to kill him?

Quote
crashing down but hang suspended in the air, floating gently.

hang should be hung.

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, but instead dissolved into specks of light, into clouds of crystalline light,

Did you mean to have both of these clauses?


Quote
1) The Dearan Asaen excerpt has now been expanded. Because I am so familiar with Nybelmar I guess a take a lot of things for granted. Thank you for bringing this to my attention. I think the passage should be much more entertaining for the general reader now. What do you think?

I like the improvements you made to the story!  Its much more dramatic.

Quote
3) Re 'First Wave': I clarified the definition to make clear that the "First Wave" is not supposed to be the first ever expansion cycle. Rather: First Wave = manifestation cycle; Second Wave = ascension (return) cycle.

This is much clearer now.  Thank you.   :)

Quote
But that's not what Premise 2 (objective reality) is about. What you write relates to Premise 3 (an infinite number of possibilities which exist at once). Where do you want me to insert the clarification you mention - into Premise 2 or 3?

Premise 2 is more about the fact that "wishing won't make it so". Another way to say that reality is objective would be: Nature, to be commanded, must be obeyed.

I think you missed the point of my comment.  What I was trying to say is that when you explain using only metaphor people have a tendency to get confused.  I was asking for you, in both of those cases, to spell the premise out in plain words after your metaphor, not saying to use the same explanation to describe both.


Quote
We have no conceptual problem with different sets of people doing different things simultaneously in different places. We have no problem, for instance, with King Tiandor having breakfast in a place called the United Kingdom of Santharia whilst over the mountains, and over thousands of leagues of ocean, Terevikh children are climbing tangleroot-trees. The Krean treat time in the same way. So, they would say, the Tiandor being born and the Tiandor dying are one; both events exist “simultaneously” within the First Wave, just in different locations – separated by “time” rather than geography.

That is our first analogy; now keep this at the back of your mind as we turn our attention to how the Krean extend the same reasoning to probabilities:

So what is this business about “the Web” and an infinite number of possibilities? Put simply: At every choice, every vicissitude, every instance something could have happened differently, Existence splits, like a fork in the road. In other words the Universe, and everything within it, has infinite variations, all of which happen at once – here and now. So, not only do Tiandor-in-the-cradle and Tiandor-in-the-grave exist “at the same time”, but so do Tiandor the Beggar and Tiandor the King of Santharia...  Thus, Tiandor could be said to have a web comprised of all his past and future selves as well as all his possible selves (the person he could be or might have been). What we call “Reality”, the Ancient Krean called “The Possibility Probable” – i.e. the most likely possibility given all that has come before. In a sentence, Krean Magic is based on selecting which of these infinite possibilities is to be experienced - “as reality”.

This is what I was referring to with my fifth comment.  You have it italicized and indented, which usually denotes that it is a quote or excerpt taken from another source.  If its not supposed to be, could you please align it with the rest of the text?  This would help avoid confusion I think.

Quote
7) I'm really tempted to leave that entire section out and roll it into a separate sub-entry. Then it can be expanded upon there in the way you mention. What do you think?

I think it would be fine to remove this and create its own entry.  It seems like it has a lot of room for discussion and elaboration so it could make for a very interesting submission in its own right.  The title of said entry could use a bit of work in my opinion though.  ;)

All in all, this looks quite good and will definitely be blarrowed in time for the next update.
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #20 on: 01 July 2011, 04:32:37 »

I'll will read this next week, when I'm away. Not that I think I will comment much afterwards! ;) To speak with Altario, I'm just a simple Shendar woman.
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #21 on: 01 July 2011, 04:42:34 »

@ Talia & Altario: Oh come on! You are both fishing for compliments now! I doubt very much that it was a case of the concept being too advanced. Rather, it must be a failure on my part to communicate the concept clearly! :)


--------------


@Drasil:

Quote
The Valley had been covered with a thick carpet of green, but now the forest floor was being stripped of its trees like a hallway of its carpet

Carpet / carpet - yeah, but I couldn't find a synonym for carpet that worked there. Hmm.. Any suggestions?


Quote
They're not trying to kill him?

Yeah, they have an odd way of showing their love, don't they? Storms, and boiling ground, and earthquakes and all. Fixed: Did survive--> did not survive ;)

- hung/hang + crystalline light: Err... I'm getting sloppy.  shocked

Quote
I like the improvements you made to the story!  Its much more dramatic.

Haha - thank you very much! Plus, you get to read free fiction in the middle of an otherwise long and technical entry ;)


Quote
I think you missed the point of my comment.  What I was trying to say is that when you explain using only metaphor people have a tendency to get confused.  I was asking for you, in both of those cases, to spell the premise out in plain words after your metaphor, not saying to use the same explanation to describe both.

Yes, but where is the metaphor here?:

Quote
[2] REALITY IS OBJECTIVE AND EXISTS INDEPENDENTLY OF OUR PERCEPTION OF IT
The Krean conceive of an objective reality – i.e. that reality exists independently of our perception of it. Or as a Krean would say: Each reality exists independently of our perception of it. According to the Krean, consciousness pre-supposes existence: There is something – of which I am aware. There is (existence) something (identity) – and I am aware of it (consciousness).

I'm confused.

And here:

Quote
According to Krean philosophy, all possibilities exist simultaneously - like sheets of paper layered on top of one another - and the most probable events, given all that has come before, exist in "our" reality.

If you take out the paper simile, it spells out the premise in a rather straight-forward way: "All possibilities exist simultaneously -  and the most probable events, given all that has come before, exist in "our" reality." Again, where is the extended metaphor here? I intended this sentence as the 'principle', which was explained in slightly more medieval terms through metaphor and analogy in the Tiandor excerpt that followed.

The first three times I wrote this, people complained: "The expression is too modern, reads like a thesis. Use analogies and metaphors to make the expression more fitting to a fantasy world." Now there are too many metaphors?  shocked

 lol I'm never going to be done with this entry, am I?


After you respond to the question above, I'll post a new version incorporating all the changes.
« Last Edit: 01 July 2011, 04:46:32 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged

"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #22 on: 03 July 2011, 10:54:08 »

You could take out the first "carpet of green" and simply replace it with dense undergrowth or flourishing (something).  What do you think?
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #23 on: 04 July 2011, 04:18:22 »

Ah yes. Thanks. :) I actually had the metaphor thing in mind though ("Yes, but where is..." onwards)
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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #24 on: 04 July 2011, 07:12:31 »

I've decided to just let the metaphors thing go.  Thinking back on it, even though I did get the impression that there were a bunch of metaphors, I still understood the content of the entry so it is fine as is.

Besides, its not fair for your submission to be held up by a debate on writing style.  When you've finished making the final touches let me know and I can blarrow you (or you can blarrow yourself).

As always, a very nicely done entry Coren.
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #25 on: 04 July 2011, 15:23:32 »

Here we go. :)


NOTE TO ARTIMIDOR: I included an EASTER-EGG in the entry- a very obvious reference to my favourite PC game! It is a line from the cinematic opening of the Lords of Magic Special Edition (1998), which I am quoting from memory (so I may have done grievous bodily harm to the original).

Could this be mentioned in our easter eggs page? Is there anything else you would like from me in this regard?
« Last Edit: 04 July 2011, 15:28:41 by Coren FrozenZephyr » Logged

"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #26 on: 17 July 2011, 16:09:57 »

The document seems to be completely different to what we have on the site. I don't know e.g. what the coloured passages should represent, as pretty much everything is different. There's no mentioning of the sub-schools like the Priestesses of Ankriss, Order of the Absolutes etc. the way it was previously structured etc. So I don't even know what to do with the picture we currently have on the page etc. Also, completely throwing the old entry away and re-doing it from scratch without being able to use existing passages, makes it a lot of unnecessary work for me. So, as there are too many questions open and I have no idea how to handle this entry at the moment, I'll put it off for now.
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« Reply #27 on: 17 July 2011, 17:01:30 »

Fine.
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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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« Reply #28 on: 18 July 2011, 14:04:50 »

You are so motivating, Artimidor!   cry



The coloured passages? As usual he coloured, what he changed after the input, as requested.

The missing parts? Should come in a subentry. More explanations you can find in his first or second post.

Quote
CHANGES MADE
1. Grouped all theory together. Condensed and collapsed certain sections into one. Expanded others.
2. Added a "terminology" section - finally!
3. Significantly shortened the "prevalence" section - seriously, most of that sub-schools stuff had no business  in this entry. (They will be addressed in a separate, sub-entry)
4. Moved prevalence section down - the structure is more logical this way. Having "prevalence"/subschools etc sandwiched between two theoretical sections interrupts the flow. Also, grouping prevalence and origins/history together at the end seems to make more sense. We might want to think about altering the Template accordingly.
5. A lot of the premises Krean magic - and Krean worldview - is based on were left implicit. So fixed this by identifying the six underlying premises early on.
6. Stylistic changes all the way through. Likewise, moved a lot of the stuff around.

Quote
Also, completely throwing the old entry away and re-doing it from scratch without being able to use existing passages, makes it a lot of unnecessary work for me. So, as there are too many questions open and I have no idea how to handle this entry at the moment, I'll put it off for now.

As I see it, there are no questions open anymore. And what about the time and effort put into this entry, not alone by Coren, but all others who have read and commented? All in vain? You didn't mind Azhira to revamp her tribe's entry entirely, why is Coren not allowed to do that, if he thinks it is so much better now? How do you define 'unnecessary work'?  It would be good, to know that in advance.
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #29 on: 18 July 2011, 15:17:11 »

The standard black text in the first lines of the document already differs from what we have in the entry on the site. This makes it a "No go" at that moment. Because if I only go for the coloured changes, I wouldn't prepare it correctly - and I cannot determine from here what really changed. Besides, are all coloured changes to integrate or are some of them from an older update?  Also: What is to be done with the picture? Simply remove it?

Entries can be completely revised, no problem with that. If there are dramatical changes it should be made clear: Do it from scratch, but then of course it takes as long as preparing 10 pages in Word. As I didn't have time for that this weekend and the key questions I stated above are unresolved, I couldn't take it into the update.
« Last Edit: 18 July 2011, 15:18:44 by Artimidor Federkiel » Logged



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