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Author Topic: Integration of the knight  (Read 4984 times)
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Burton Sable
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« on: 09 February 2010, 07:09:07 »

Link: http://www.santharia.com/dev/index.php/topic,14251.0.html
Hello people,

I have boldly started an entry of great imporance which might need your opinions and critisims.
With lots of enthousiasm i want to envision the knight of santharia.

Be doing so i halfway came to the conclusion that it affects a lot of different aspects of santharia.

Mainly the integration of this into santharia. The scale of my entry could apply to all of santharia or just to provinces or cities.

My aim is to create a centerpiece of 'a way of life'. An important social structure that will have some bumps allong the way if i want to create this the right way.

I highlighted my biggest question in the entry, yellow. More will follow as i work on this.

Your opinions and ideas are greatly appreciated.
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #1 on: 09 February 2010, 07:40:53 »

You want knights? I would think we've got those.


My problem is that you're operating on the assumption it seems, that a knight is the ideal of all of the various tribes/cultures of Santharia. Erpheronians might be on board for that, but elves and hobbits certainly wouldn't. Brownie knights, as awesome as the concept sounds, would be easily trampled by most livestock. What about other human tribes?

Eyelians, Centoraurians (who prefer to travel light on their horses), Shendar (an armored knight traveling through Truban or Brendolan could easily turn into a handily microwaved snack for some beast clever enough to get through that metal) Caltharians, Avennorians (metal sinks), and Stratanians? You're trying to put a uniform foundation on completely uneven ground, and if you do so, you'll cover up the little nooks, cracks and nuanced crannies that distinguish those cultures, in favor of making some cookie-cutter people who ride around in armor, which frankly we've already got.

Nothing against you, but, please go do some research.
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Burton Sable
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« Reply #2 on: 09 February 2010, 08:01:55 »

The order of the white knights is an order that came from the knight and your
Quote
Nothing against you, but, please go do some research.
comment totally makes no sense. Haven't i asked in general to help me integrate this? Ofcourse not all tribes would be part of the knights, they would have their own standards of warrior's. But as i stated before, hasn't santhros unificied santharia? Which would open up a possibility to make the knight widespread. And if people are oppossed to that idea then we'l make them smaller and i'l edit the discription to make them more provincial.

Nevertheless the link you gave me (about the order of fallen) doesn't satisfy my need for the social structure and depth this topic needs. I think you are totally missing the idea of the concept. And furthermore you are mentioning hobits, elves and brownies. I am only talking about humans. Ofcourse they will only be suited to the tribes that are fitting for them. But eh... i did a lot of work on this and you are just putting it down like this? You didn't notice the work-in-progress- icon?

Anyways thanks for the opinion and the demoralising (and in my opinion misunderstood) comments but eh, any constructive comments anyone, or should i just put the idea ' the knight's roots' out of it's misery?
« Last Edit: 09 February 2010, 08:10:29 by Diagondus Hirondus » Logged
Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #3 on: 09 February 2010, 08:31:35 »

Do not be demoralized. :D  Our good friend Valen speaks with words akin to salt in a wound, but he is a very knowledgeable and respected member around here. :P

I think Valen is pretty much thinking along the same lines as I was in your other thread.  Maybe simply lessen the scope on this.  Your broad paint strokes are covering much of the detail that these other entries have painted.  Perhaps, if an Order has not proven detailed enough for you, ask if it can be updated?  I'm not sure who or when these entries were written, so this might not be feesable, so don't take my word as gold.

I think you are simply planning too grand at the outset.  Work smaller and build it up towards something later that you can tackle that has a firmer foundation.

But don't throw in the towel.  Not yet. :)
« Last Edit: 09 February 2010, 08:45:58 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

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Burton Sable
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« Reply #4 on: 09 February 2010, 08:52:03 »

I can see now that it was wrong of me to start big and tone it down later, i could have better done it the other way around. But what's done is done. I will have to find a place for them tough. I intend to work out my idea a bit better and will keep the most vital parts that connects this entry to the history and structure of the tribes a bit open so that we can discuss the matter.

Thanks Alterio, i prefer such critisism. Valan sounds just like how his avatar might sound. :D buck He sort of frightens me now :P.
(haha just kiding Valan, you sounded a bit mean but probably mean well, or have your reasons).

it's a big project for a newbie but i know santharia quite well. I think i might have probably read most of the entries on the site so i am not completly clueless in what i am doing. Which you probably thought. But know this i wll do my best on this as long as everybody supports the idea. You can't put the idea down if you have only read a small part of it, so i intent to keep working on it until not only I am satisfied but until every member of the development is!

But well good night, it's late, i MUST sleep :p
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Azhira Styralias
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« Reply #5 on: 09 February 2010, 10:17:16 »

Don't worry about Valan...he always sounds like that. We've talked to him before about scaring away the newbies, but he still needs practice with the "delicate" part of speech.  :P

Maybe he's been hanging around the evil cold North too long...he lost his happy place somewhere...
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #6 on: 09 February 2010, 10:44:09 »

Another option (since the individual entries on the orders appear to be quite sound) would be to create another order. As it is, three tribes are highly concentrated in three orders (Order of the Fallen: Erpheronians, Seyelite Army: Sophronians/Serphelorians, Order of Wings: Eyelians) while the White Knights is the only order not exclusive to humans. I would suggest the Centoraurians. They're not your traditional heavily armoured types though. Perhaps an order of Arvins?
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« Reply #7 on: 09 February 2010, 21:02:21 »

Basicly i want to add to- the humans.

I want to grasp the most important of the noble circles that present  the government.

Order of the Fallen,
White knights,
paladins,

they are part of a system that originates from the basic knight.

The knight entry will describe the general idea of the knight and provide detail towards the rising knight's 22th year. From there on they'l have to join the militairy.

Somewhere from the part of where they are admitted to their warrior's school towards brave actions during their service they will be admitted to one of the ORDERS.

Orders are guilds and groups of knights that stand by each other and back eachother up. there are many guilds and orders but the most famous are:
Order of the Fallen,
White knights,
paladins.

A warrior of these orders have followed simular trainings and lifestyles (a very hard one!) to become what they are. But it all roots from the foundations of being a knight.

Ofcourse the paladins will have more religious training and their beliefs will be more related to their gods, but a paladin is in a certain way, a knight.

Joining an order will only add to-- the history of the knight.

---

I foresee many great ideas popping up from this.

Paladins (THEIR training and what is needed to join their order)
other orders less famous,
the slight to mayor differences in the upbringing of a knight (how the many tribes have their own version of the knight),
Fighting styles, political intriges,
there is so many things that popped into my mind earlier but which i forgot,

anyways i want to limit the knight to certain area's of the kingdom. Not only certain tribes, but rather the noble circles, cities and where the tribes from who the idea of the knight sprang are most evident in other cultures...

Hope this clarifies it a bit... And hope you understand my vision of the project...
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #8 on: 09 February 2010, 22:05:36 »

Welcome  Diagondus,

Quote
it's a big project for a newbie but i know santharia quite well. I think i might have probably read most of the entries on the site so i am not completly clueless in what i am doing.

Really?  clap2

How good are you with the Trivia ??  grin
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Valan Nonesuch
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« Reply #9 on: 10 February 2010, 00:57:21 »

I'd object to that statement as well about knowing most of the site. (Partly because it's plain huge, mostly because "most of" is very ambiguous. Especially with the sheer volume of information.) This pretty much breaks down where the various knightly orders (the Santhran's Orders) fit in the "Grand Scheme Of Things"

Knight
  • A warrior, especially of the Middle Ages.
  • 2. Nowadays, a person on whom a knighthood has been conferred by a monarch.
Paladin
  • A heroic champion (especially a knightly one).
  • A defender or advocate of a noble cause. (A defender of faith).

Please note that every word there is a link to a different order. Now, as far as paladins go? The Order of Armeros and the Order of the White Knights epitomize those definitions. The Order of Armeros are keepers of the piece first and foremost. The White Knights serve as diplomats and intermediaries in addition to defending the weak and helpless.

Now this is to say nothing of the various other connotations of the word created by mass popular culture (a knightly warrior empowered by some sort of higher power with supernatural abilities) which really shouldn't be touched with a 35 and a half palmspan pole.
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« Reply #10 on: 11 February 2010, 01:39:06 »

I'm only a lurker now but I think I wrote the "Order of the Fallen", "Order of Armeros" and "Order of the White Knights". I think the main idea was to have some system that helps a confederate Santharia without ignoring its patched up appearance of different cultures and races.

In terms of knights it is thus mainly a kind of sanctioned warrior and this happens by joining an accepted order. I think the main problem is the orders are entirely different entities.
A Knight of the Fallen would probably be the closest to a knight within a feudal contract.
A Knight of the White order would be the closest to a Warrior Monk like knights of the crusader orders (templars, Johannies, Maltese, German order).
A Knight of Armeros probably fits most the idea of RPG style knights who are wandering warriors hunting monsters and fighting evil without many ties to anything but their "guild".

And then there probably all the other ones and changes I have not seen.

In essence you become nominally a knight by joining one of the orders but you joining an order can work quite differently. As a knight of Armeros you just need to become the squire of one to have a shot at it/ join the temple, a knight of the Fallen has probably to be a descendant or a designated member of one of the lords of the demenses, as a white knight you have to be accepted by one of the monasteries and master all the lessons and teachings like a monk.

I'd guess that thus there are already inherently different reputations associated with all that. A knight of Armeros would be a welcomed sight by any village but they would be simply in awe if a White Knight comes along simply because the former are more numerous and poorer while the latters appear rarer and because of their clerical training appear more noble (not from this world). Similarily a knight of the Fallen would carry the clout of a powerful and sometimes ruthless political body with it (he'd carry the respect with him for what he does in the border lands but you'd be wellserved to wonder what he wants with you or your village).


In essence I think the basic premise is that it works the other way around you expect. You can be designated a "knight" from very different backgrounds. The term is associated with you belonging to an organization which has the privileges associated with it that their members can carry this title, not because these organizations have much in common with each other (e.g. the Order of the Fallen and probably Seyella have territorial considerations concerning their interests while Armeros and the White Knights are more "international"/"cosmopolitan"). Training, upbringing and way of life would be entirely different and they'd still be all called knights because they are professional warriors allowed this title via the relations of their order with the Santhran.


I'd suggest to work in conjunction of a certain order instead of a general entry. The latter should actually only contain the relation of why who might be called a knight and that it's quite different from the real European middle ages.
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Burton Sable
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« Reply #11 on: 12 February 2010, 08:25:47 »

RAKSHIRI!

You describe the whole point i missed.

You are right!

i never wanted to -not-include- the other tribes, i sort of wanted to make santharia a bit of my own by creating something as widespread as a knight.
The knight would have allowed me to connect some of the dots and plotholes for my later entries, or more or less create a base to work from. I do not dismiss the entry of a knight but perhaps i made wrong approach. Perhaps i should dismiss the knight entirely, but focus only on the school for knights.

The militairy academy, the knight's school!

Nevertheless i want to make sort of a elite warriors, but nevertheless humanoid and vulnarable. Perhaps something simular as how we train our marines in real life. But since it's a medieval time live should be more unfair and harder. Nevertheless i could remove or re-arange part of the entry and still create my knight. Where they origin from will be the schools and the social atmoshphere that suit certain parts of santharia... Perhaps erpheronian are good starting point.

How does such a approach sound to everyone?
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #12 on: 12 February 2010, 08:53:11 »

Quote
The militairy academy, the knight's school!

Uhm... still, how about a military academy instead of the military academy?

You use the marines as your example.  How the US trains their marines is different than how the Russians train theirs, which is different than how Germany trains theirs, etc, etc.  

Another thought, medieval knights were trained by an older knight.  First as a page, then as a squire etc.  Make sure that this is not the case in whatever Order of knight you decide to apply this to.

You might want to read up on a school that Drasil created for elven warriors as well.
« Last Edit: 12 February 2010, 09:39:01 by Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin » Logged

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Burton Sable
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« Reply #13 on: 12 February 2010, 09:27:41 »

Well i would give this academy a certain social circle of men that are only accepted by this academy and describe them and still get the satisfaction of how i invisioned my project in the first place. and yes i'l not make them 'the' academy but 'an' academy.
I feel my aura re-embracing the project again...
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