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Author Topic: Surgical Procedures- Warning somewhat graphic  (Read 15343 times)
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« on: 01 September 2010, 01:13:02 »

Taking what Kelancey started I have reorganized the surgical tools and based everything on the surgical procedure instead.  I have removed the tools and procedures that I judged to be too modern and have added some stories and ideas to integrate this more into our world.  In fact most of what is written here is new.  Some of the details a re bit graphic please be warned.

NEW IDEAS for SURGICAL PROCEDURES WELCOME.  If you have an idea of a surgical procedure that woudl fit in our world..... lets hear it.

Comments welcome.  Please let me know what you think so far.  I am certainly willing to make changes.

SURGICAL PROCEDURES
Surgery is the practice of direct manual manipulation of an injury usually involving cutting open the body or entering an already open wound.  This is differentiated from other practices such as medicine, herbalism, spiritualism or even magical healing.  However these various healing disciplines may play a role in the surgical process.  

Surgery has historically been the domain of the human and elven races in Santharia.  The primary need arose on the battlefield as injuries occurred.  There was a time when even the most minor injury resulted in a permanent disability or death.  Over time the humans  and elves learned that by intervening the injury could be managed or even fully corrected.   The other main races of Sarvonia have not advanced as far as humans and elves in the practice of surgery for various reasons.  Dwarves have advanced in some of the more barbaric surgical procedures described here; however the delicate surgeries requiring finesse and patience seem to go unpracticed by most dwarven tribes.   Orcs have not advanced far in surgery for an entirely different reason.  Surgery requires that one person helps another person to be healed.  In general when an orc becomes injured the other tribe members view this as a weakness and will let the orc die.  In some rare cases a particularly brave orc will attempt a makeshift surgery on his own body, however the effects of pain, blood loss and infection usually take over.

In the author's travelers throughout Sarvonia Caelereth he has seen many varying surgical procedures. Kelancey the Green has this to say:
“I have been truly amazed by the ingenuity of the advancements in the practice of surgery as well as disgusted by the barbarism I have seen.  Unfortunately it seems that most tribes throughout Sarvonia practice more of what I would call elementary surgery with only the larger populated areas like New Santhala practicing the advanced techniques.  My hope is that through the Compendium healers all over Sarvonia will learn the advanced techniques and that these practices will become more commonplace in the remote areas of our lands, thereby saving many lives.” The following are the various surgical procedures witnessed in the travels of Kelancey the Green:

Brain Exposure (Trepanning, Skull Drilling)
Trepanning is a barbaric surgical procedure performed by some human tribes in northern Sarvonia.  This procedure is usually performed when a patient complains of chronic or migraine brain pain.  Usually before the brain exposure procedure is performed the patient has already tried a number of other less intrusive measures, with no result, leaving them desperate and sometimes crazed. The procedure is performed using a tool called a treppan.  The treppan is a two-handed twist screw. One model is shaped like a straight rod with two handles. A second fashion is a rod, about a fore in length, bent at right angles in 4 places, shaped like a straight-brimmed hat: One "brim" is the handle which remains steady, and the instrument rotates inside this handle. The "dome" of the hat is a second handle, which is spun around in a circle, and it is this handle which turns the screw. The other "brim" of the hat ends in a drill or countersink screw.  With one handle being used to steady the instrument, the treppan bores a hole and removes a circular disc from the skull.  For some patients this procedure relieves the pain.  The ice tribes claim the procedure releases the inner demons while others believe the brain’s exposure to air heals the pain.  However, in most cases the patient suffers infection and dies.  In fact, the rates of survival are so low that the more advance tribes in the north and those in southern Sarvonia have outlawed the practice.  At this time we are only aware of humans in the north performing this procedure.

Blood Cleansing
Blood cleansing is the withdrawal of  blood from a patient’s body in an effort to remove the so-called “dirty” blood.  Blood can become dirty in a number of ways such as disease, infection, curses and demonic possession.    In fact some of the more barbaric tribes prescribe blood cleansing for the vast majority of diseases and illnesses.  The idea behind the practice originates from the common understanding that blood contains the person’s life force.  When the blood becomes contaminated it is necessary to remove that contamination or else the patient will die.  Unlike contaminated water which is removed through the urine or contaminated air which is ejected by exhaling, contaminated blood must be removed by a healer.  
A number of different methods are employed to remove blood from the body.  The most common and crude method is to simply puncture the patient in a high blood-flow area such as the neck, wrist or groin. If done correctly the dirty blood will escape the body in a rapid fashion.  Another method used is the hot cup method.  A cup containing hot air is pressed against a wound.  The heat draws the dirty blood from the wound and is conveniently caught by the cup.  Leeches are also used by some healers.
In all these cases the typical practice is to continue drawing blood until the patient faints.  This is the general indication that the contamination has left the body.  

While the practice of blood cleansing is generally used to heal patients of illness and disease, there have been reports of the practice being used to cure curses and demonic possession.  Furthermore Kelancey the Green obtained this report from a local healer in one of the remote ice tribes in Northern Sarvonia,
“Ahh yes.  Just last year I attempted to clean the blood of a  young man visiting us from the south.  He wore a strange robe with runes and markings and carried a skinny staff.  He was ill suited to survive in our lands as his robe was not thick enough to keep out the cold and his staff was not strong enough to kill even a small rodent for food.  However when it came time to sleep our men noticed he was able to start his cooking fire with nothing but his fingers.  the young man was quickly seized and brought to me for surely he was contaminated with magic.  We attempted to rid his body of the magic, but it had taken a strong hold on him.  His screams and protestations attested to the extent of the infection.  Unfortunately the magic was too strong and he died before he had the chance to faint.”    


Amputation
During wartime the wounds received, however minor, usually result in infection.  Some of the less advanced tribes attribute this infection to the supposed evil present in their enemy’s blades.  More advance healers simply recognize that a warblade and the conditions on a battlefield lead to dirty and infected wounds.  Amputation is the removal of a limb in order to stave off the spread of infection or poison, thus protecting the core body.  Amputation is a rather common procedure performed during wartime and to a lesser extent during peacetime.  Common procedures include the removal of a finger, forearm, or entire arm, likewise toes, lower leg or full leg.  For certain the larger the body part amputated the more risky the procedure.  The amputation procedure includes the careful cutting of the skin and muscle with a clean sword, knife or dagger followed by using a sawlike blade to cut through the bone.  Success with this procedure largely depends on how effectively blood-loss and infection are managed.  For certain the patient’s pain is also managed and during wartime this is usually accomplished through the consumption of alcoholic drink.  Finally the remaining stump is bandaged and the patient is monitored.  
While speaking to an Erpheronian general about war wounds, an interesting observation was recorded regarding dwarven amputation.  “We were in the heat of battle and I was beside a company of dwarves.  One of the dwarven warriors was cruelly hit by a war mace crushing the bones in his left forearm.  Without hesitation the dwarf laid his arm across a nearby boulder and his companion used his axe to hack off the limb near the elbow.  The resulting wound was quickly bandaged and the dwarf returned to the battle immediately.  I am not aware if he survived the battle.”  This story corresponds to other rumors concerning the dwarven miraculous resistance to the pain of an amputation and their persistence on the battlefield.

Santhalian Section (Infant Extraction)
New Santhala has boomed in population over the past 100 years.  While there are many causes, one is for certain, the increasing use of the Santhalian Section procedure, a groundbreaking procedure that has saved the lives of countless mothers and babies during childbirth.  The procedure is quite simple.  In the event that complications during pregnancy make natural childbirth impossible the surgeon will simply cut into the mother’s abdomen using a small sharp blade, sometimes referred to as a scalper or scalpel, and extract the baby manually.  Regardless of the simplicity of the procedure, highly advanced knowledge of the female anatomy is necessary to avoid killing the unborn baby and the mother.  To date only the healers in and around New Santhala have been able to perfect the procedure giving birth to the name Santhalian Section.  
Further research uncovered that this procedure did not originate in New Santhala but originated with the Elven tribe of ??? .  The elves call the procedure The Unspeakable Evil.  For them the procedure did not originate as a life saving procedure at childbirth but as a result of the rapes by the orc raiders during the time of the ???.   The thought of giving birth to a half-orc was so appalling the elven healers cut the babies from the mothers’wombs and disposed of them.  During this process many elven women died, a risk they were willing to take.  Unfortunately the horrors do not stop there.  An elven healer explains,
“As if the raping and the Unspeakable Evil was bad enough, the orc raids continued.  When the orc generals found out what we were doing to their unborn babies they became angry and gave orders to their legions.  The generals found our legitimately pregnant women and cruelly cut them open to remove their elven babies.  Unspeakable things were done to these unborn children in sight of the dying mother.”


Extraction of Teeth
Rotten teeth often wait for the most inopportune time to fester and incapacitate the bearer of bad teeth. Of course, the instrument of choice would be the barber's pincers, aided by a course of miyu beans to dull the pain. In less optimal circumstances, bowstrings and garotte cords have seen use in yanking teeth. A different approach would be to use a tanner's awl or a quarryman's chisel, along with a cook's wooden mallet, to "gently persuade" the tooth to come out.

[b]Eye Surgery[/b]
While a very dangerous and rather unknown procedure, eye surgery has been attempted and succeeded, leading to at least moderate vision improvement on the subjects. The surgeon will push a long and very thin needle through the outer part of the eye to break up any 'blockages' and the remaining pieces are gently sucked up using an equally long and thin tube.  Since this practice is rather dangerous and requires an expert’s skill, it is difficult to find surgeons willing to perform this outside of New Santhala. There have been rumours of attempts by Northern healers, but whether the surgery was a success, or more importantly, if the patient lived, have remained so far, unconfirmed.


EXPERIMENTAL SURGICAL PROCEDURES

Blood Insertion
This procedure is the converse of the blood cleansing procedure.  The idea is to somehow insert the healthy blood from an external host into the body of the patient thus revitalizing the patient with clean blood and health.  The problem arises with finding a successful way to get the blood into the body. Quickly it was discovered that drinking the clean blood was not effectual. Early experiments attempted to pour the clean blood into the patients body through a small incision in the patients abdomen.  Other experiments attempted to push the blood into the arm or neck by squeezing a leather bag full of clean blood through a glass tube and into the body.   To date no blood insertion surgery has been a success, however gnomes are working on designing new glass tools that may enable a more precise insertion of blood.  Healers we have spoken to are certain once the correct tool is designed the surgery will be a huge success with one healer quoted as saying "Imagine the possibilities.  We have an abundance of clean blood all around us in our cattle, swine and sheep which goes to waste each time we slaughter our animals for food.  Once we can figure out how to insert this clean blood into our patients we can cure all kinds of diseases and illnesses and save lives. The results will be revolutionary!"

Organ Removal
Normally when a patient complains of pains within the core of the body the healer will administer normal pain management procedures.  If the pain persists the healer may conduct the blood cleansing procedure.  However we have evidence that some more radical healers have been attempting to cut open the body and remove the organ causing the pain in hopes the problem would be cured.  Miraculously some patients have survived the initial surgery however almost in all these cases the patient has died from the loss of the organ.  There have been reports that certain organs have been removed without causing immediate death.  One such organ is located in the lower abdomen subsequenlty named the "appending organ" or "useless organ".  Another successful case was the result of removing one of two organs in the lower back.  The assumption is the redundant organ was not needed.  However this is only the case with the redundant organs of the lower back, the redundant breathing organs of the upper chest are apparantly both necessary to the survival of the patient.  

Reattachment Procedure
The vast number of amputations that occur especially during war time has led to experiments of reattachment.  In this procedure the patient's amputated limb or limb from another host is attached to the patient in hopes the limb will become alive and function.  Reports of this new experimentation initially led to many hundreds of volunteers.  To date only early experiments with this procedures have been conducted with no success.  In every case the attached limb is immobile and unfeeling.  Within hours the limb begins to putrify and stink. In days the limb becomes fully black and bloated.  In some cases the limb becomes "sick" in which the sickness spreads to the patient causing death.  The news of the horrors seen in these early experiments has spread and now almost all reattachment experiments are performed on war prisoners and criminals.

Further report have been heard of the reattachment surgery being taken to further extremes.  Rumours exist that experimentation with cross race attachments are being conducted with no success. One rumour even suggested that experiments on dead corpses were being conducted wherin the "best" parts of each race were attached to a dead human host in an effort to create the perfect race.  Apparantly student mages were attempting to reanimate the corpse when officials from the Ximax academy stepped in and ended the affair.

CLOSING WOUNDS
Surgical wounds are closed in generally the same manner as the various types of cuts and wounds.  Examples include the following:

Blue Myrmex Stitches
It is well-known that the wild tribes of Nybelmar and Aeruillin commonly use the Stone Myrmex to seal small cuts, drawing the edges of the wound together and then placing the insect’s head along the incision, whereupon the beast spits its defensive material, which hardens upon exposure to air. A single Myrmex can seal about a thumbnail’s width of cut before its supply becomes exhausted (indicated by an unwillingness to bite and a lax, drooping abdomen), and another insect must be chosen. The sealed cut resists infection, and the ‘stitches’ will hold up well under perspiration and water. The stitches should be renewed each day, as this lessens the risk of the wound becoming infected as the heads decay. It is recommended that this method is only used in extreme emergencies, as the numbing effect of the Myrmex venom could cause permanent disabling if used in excessive amounts.

Silkel Tree Thread Stitches
The Silkel tree, also called the Ilárol’pherán ("Silver Tree") or Cáo fá Eú'reóll, ("Child of the Tree of Life"), in Styrásh, is regarded as one of the most beautiful trees in all of Caelereth, and many believe it to be touched by a kind of immortal magic. Either its enchanting appearance, or perhaps its amazing healing powers, or maybe its inclination to grow in places touched by myth and wonder, lead to the belief that it’s a tree closer to ethereality than to corporeality. This sheeny tree has a number of uses, many of them of medicinal purpose. The tree is mostly known for its thread-like bark that can be made into silk. The silk is used as stitching/suturing thread. Using a large strand of silk, the healer will double stitch the wound. This is done as a precaution, for the silkel thread might break. Then bandages are added and wrapped tightly.  Silkel trees are rare, found in forests all throughout Caelereth, especially Thaelon, Bolder, Quallian, Zeiphyrian, Sharadon Forest, Auturian Woods, Shaded Forest, and others.
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« Reply #1 on: 01 September 2010, 05:34:22 »

added the experimental surgeries. 
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« Reply #2 on: 01 September 2010, 08:34:42 »

"A very common surgical procedure throughout Caelereth is trepanation. "

Should probably be changed, bearing in mind the last sentences of the paragraph, to something like  "In the past, trephination was a common surgical proceedure in parts of Caelereth." 

(The proceedure can be spelt as trepanation, trepanning, trephination, or trephining.  I suppose we should choose whichever the correct 'British' spelling is and use that throughout the paragraph!)
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« Reply #3 on: 01 September 2010, 09:12:10 »

I'm okay with using trepanning by my kids in the north.  I was going to go that route anyhow.  You can see which spelling I plan to use. rolleyes
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« Reply #4 on: 01 September 2010, 17:11:31 »

Re Trepanning/Trepanation the Concise OED gives both as acceptable nouns for the procedure (verb: to trepan, past participle: trepanned, present participle: trepanning, implement used: a trepan).

Re Trephination the COED gives it as the acceptable noun for the procedure of using a trephine ("A more advanced form of trepan with a guiding centre pin"). Trephining could be used as the gerund form (present participle: trephining) but is not given explicitly.

Hopefully that clears it up - they are similar but definitely different.
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« Reply #5 on: 01 September 2010, 17:27:30 »

What an interesting submission Seeker, it is a pity, that I have not even the time to read it fully.

Just some ideas...

I would not speak of "all of Caelereth" (as Kelancy seemed to have planned). Let it be a Central Santharian thing, or practised in only big cities.

As you write it, it seems, general infection (what is infection, how it is seen in Santharia? What causes it, or is it just a word which describes the effect of "unclean" working?) is no problem. Do the Santharian already know about the need to 'disinfect' the tools? The need to boil them for half an hour or so? Do they have the means to disinfect their hands? do they know, that they have to do it?

It is a difference, if you close a wound on the battlefield, or if you actively cut in a whole body to do a surgery . For a long time it was forbidden to open the body of a person, even if he was in danger to die. Scientist/doctors had to beg for the corpse of a dead person to learn something about that. Was that different in Santharia? (The different tribes may have different attitudes)

Just my feeling - the trepidation of a scull should be something special and not very successful. The Inkas (?Aztecs) did it, yes, but who else?

There are easier ways to  get rid of a baby than to do a Caesarian. I don't think, this fits to the elven way of live, not even a normal abortion. Maybe ask others who know more about the elves. I think that getting rid of those babies in a ceremony after birth, where they are left alone in the wild would fit more to the elven way of living with the nature.

If you don't know it yet, I would recommend to read the book (library)

Noah Gordon, The Physician

and maybe some stuff about hygiene

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygiene#History_of_hygienic_practices
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semmelweis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Lister,_1st_Baron_Lister (Karbol as a desinfectant)

Just for info, the part is not in the English part of the Wiki article

Quote
Bis in die erste Hälfte des 19. Jahrhunderts wurde Sauberkeit und Desinfektion  in der Medizin  nicht als notwendig angesehen. So wurden die Operationsschürzen der Chirurgen praktisch nie gewaschen. Medizinische Instrumente wurden vor dem Gebrauch nicht gereinigt. Auch wurden nicht selten in Krankenhäusern die Wunden von verschiedenen Patienten nacheinander mit demselben Schwamm  gereinigt.



Until the first half of the 19th century Cleanliness and disinfection in the medicine was not regarded as necessary. So the aprons of the surgeons were not washed. Medical instruments were not cleaned before use. Sometimes the wounds of several patients were cleaned with the same sponge..

In general, this submission seems very advanced for our medieval or early Renaissance time. Surely medicine was only this advanced in few places (be it at present or somewhere in the past), if at all.

That does not mean, that the Northerners can't have their trepidation ;)
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« Reply #6 on: 01 September 2010, 18:38:30 »

Stone-agers* practiced trepanning, and actually quite a few corpses with holes in skulls showed signs that they lived for several years.

The Arabs had very advanced medicine and science during the "dark ages" - it was greatly to do with the Church, which in England and other European countries was going through a traditionalist stage, and inhibiting original thought. While Europeans killed each other, the Arabs quietly realised that cutting people's legs off with dirty knives was asking for trouble.

The Egyptians and Greeks were fairly advanced before the Roman Empire (in Egypt doctors knew the value of sterile equipment and used honey as a disinfectant)

*I know this is a very general term, but I hope you know when I mean

Hope it helps.

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« Reply #7 on: 01 September 2010, 19:55:16 »

Just some comments regarding the orcs:

Orcs may be seen as vicious monsters, but they are not necessarily sadistic.  No Santharian orc tribe would so demean themselves as to cut open a pregnant woman (of any race) and sadistically mutilate the unborn child.  Although many orcs refer to the other races as "Ch'ron p'thok" (vermin) they would no sooner do this that you would torture mice or rats.  Torture is seen as vaguely dishonourable.  Obviously, individual orcs, most commonly of the Losh-Oc, will occasionally indulge in it, but it is not generally practiced by most tribes.  You don't torture vermin.  You kill it.  As for half-orc babies, well, those are "vermin" too.  They couldn't care less about them being aborted.

Also, you will get orc healers.  The most famous would be the ex war leader Choan of the Orc, commonly known as Cho'an of Orc.  She was responsible for developing the medical organization known as the Daughters of Cho'an, which was begun and run by orc women of the Osther-Oc tribe, but accepts all and any patients, of any race across Northern Sarvonia.  It hasn't been fully written up or developed yet, which is why there's no info on the site, but it's in the works.

Yes, typically orcs don't practice major surgery.  It's better to die than to be seriously handicapped.  But orc women will very tenderly care for their injured mates or young and do their best to return them to full health. Particularly in tribes where orc women are seen as the property of their males, they want to make sure that they take very good care of them.

Okay, I'll stop now. *Puts down her "ORCS ARE PEOPLE TOO!" sign and quietly slips away*
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« Reply #8 on: 01 September 2010, 22:08:51 »

@ Alysse: Don't the Crytasthik (sp?) Orcs (the half-elf, half-orc tribe) have some very sadistic practices? I may have the wrong end of the stick. I think they are from Nymbelmar?

Not that I'm contesting you, I'm sure that Orcs have feelings (somewhere)

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« Reply #9 on: 02 September 2010, 00:06:59 »

GREAT DISCUSSION SO FAR EVERYONE!

Talia,

Quote
As you write it, it seems, general infection (what is infection, how it is seen in Santharia? What causes it, or is it just a word which describes the effect of "unclean" working?) is no problem. Do the Santharian already know about the need to 'disinfect' the tools? The need to boil them for half an hour or so? Do they have the means to disinfect their hands? do they know, that they have to do it?
At this point in time healers do not fully understand the cause of infection or what it really is, they only know it occurs and that there are a number of ways to make it stop. See the entry which talks about managing infection. The healers using the more advanced infection fighting techniques in the entry are certainly the most successful healers.  But at this time healers are not disinfecting tools or washing hands, however they are trying to fight infection when it starts.  

Quote
It is a difference, if you close a wound on the battlefield, or if you actively cut in a whole body to do a surgery . For a long time it was forbidden to open the body of a person, even if he was in danger to die. Scientist/doctors had to beg for the corpse of a dead person to learn something about that. Was that different in Santharia? (The different tribes may have different attitudes)
Yes this was a practice as a result of the Catholic church feeling that God heals and man should not intervene.  I would prefer to not have a similar restriction in Santharia.  

I think I agree with all your other comments and suggestions.


Alysse
I feel honoured you popped in and commented here, even if it was because I offended the Orcs.  grin  I have to admit I thought our Orcs were more brutal than you describe. Green skinned humans with bad tempers?  :D  I joke.
Nevertheless I am not the expert and I admit I may be getting the Sarvonian tribes mixed up with the Nybelmar ones as far as temperment.   Nevertheless, I realize I was pushing the edge of brutality with the Santhalian Section entry.  I can certainly change that up. And your comments have some really good ideas.


Trepanation
I'll check the spellings on this as Bard suggests.  There is evidence that trepanation was practiced by many cultures.  For Santharia I can tone down the current usage and mention that only the Ice tribes appear to be currently practicing it and that it is outlawed in the Kingdom or something.

regarding Athivaro's comment
Quote
The Egyptians and Greeks were fairly advanced before the Roman Empire (in Egypt doctors knew the value of sterile equipment and used honey as a disinfectant)
 He brings up a good point.  There were many cultures before the European middle Ages that were more advanced than the Europeans in the area of science and medicine. We don't have to have the exact same advancements in Santharia as all these cultures combined.  However knowing about these cultures provides us with the possibilities that we can consider as we decide together what makes sense for santharia.  
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« Reply #10 on: 02 September 2010, 04:32:50 »

@Athviaro

Alysse was talking about Santharian orcs, not ones from Nybelmar :)
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« Reply #11 on: 02 September 2010, 05:30:09 »

Yes, you're right, the Chyrakisth Orcs are pretty monstrous and vicious.  But as Dek points out, I'm talking about the ones on the Sarvonian continent only.  I should have been more specific.

But it's a issue with me that a sentient race should exist just to be the generic bad guys.  Sure, they don't like humans, but you know what humans are capable of.  Sometimes I don't like humans, and I am one!

Orcs are typically portrayed as brutish, savage louts.  But for every big brutish orc out there, there's an orc mommy who nursed him and cuddled him and changed his diaper and made sure he actually survived to grow up.   Orcs are capable of love.  Maybe not human-style-romantic love, but love nonetheless.


Just my additional two sans,

Alysse
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« Reply #12 on: 02 September 2010, 05:46:36 »

Seeker holds back laughter as he listens to Alysse spill her heart out about orcs and simply nods his head up and down in a robotic fashion nod.  Realizing she must have some secret relationship with a young orc somewhere, Seeker decides not to argue.  heart   Orc mommies  rolling

 ;)
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« Reply #13 on: 02 September 2010, 05:52:19 »

@ Dek: That was me being a bit silly and not quite grasping that. Apologies for wasting space and time.

@ Alysse I am certainly not suggesting a race of generic "bad guys" and I know that humans can be truly monstrous. We didn't need orcs for the Holocaust or for Stalin to mistreat his peasantry.

Thanks for the correct spelling, though!

Seems to me, that there's plenty of room for good and bad orcs. Maybe some more distinction between certain tribes/clans (if not in common people's minds, at least more distinction in the entries). I'm sure those conquered by Genghis Khan or Attilla the Hun hated all Huns and Mongols; and equally sure that the horrors perpertrated by some did not have the approval of all.

What I'm trying to say is that opinion and fact, especially in situations like this, are very different. Where an expert scholar may distinguish with clinical precision and only lay "barbarism" on some Orc tribes, the common peasant will "lump them in", so to speak.

Probably haven't expressed this too well, but there you are.

Athviaro.
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« Reply #14 on: 02 September 2010, 06:01:33 »

Given the violent history between Southern Sarvonian humans and Northern orcs, there is a definite misconception that humans have. The only experience a Southern human has is warmongering orcs, most recently SWIII. That perception is unlikely to change.

The Northern tribes have a different view of the orcs with various kinds of relationships with them that is not as one dimensional. I fully agree with Alysse and have been steering the Osther-Oc away from your typical thug orcs and developing them with agriculture, myths, complex religious beliefs and relations with other tribes such as the Kaaer and Antislar.

Orcs deserve to have a deeper and more significant culture. The race has their ups and downs like any other.
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