Elemental Property Discussion

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[Mina]

I have always thought that the names of the Spheres are merely names, and that all 3 Spheres can be applied to all properties.  Is that not the case?  It seems a little odd to limit each Sphere to certain properties. 

[Aos]

1) I think Mina's idea of including a short explanation of each property is a great one! And it seems Valan has already provided an excellent example of how this could be done. Perhaps Rayne could update the first post and we could divide the descriptions between us? I could do transformation (water) and consumption (fire) to start with - maybe also lightness (wind).

2) Re #4 from my previous post: Rayne, I'm confused by the missing word. Were you going to say you particularly like or dislike iii?

3) Re Spheres: Yep, I too was under the impression that it was pretty universally accepted that the spheres were not limited to certain properties. I remember reading somewhere that the only reason we still have those names in the school entries (like 'sphere of illusion' etc) was because nobody got around to updating them.

[Rayne (Alýr)]

2) Ah! Sorry. Like. I prefer iii.

3) We need to plan on a new way of organizing "School Entries". It seems fairly important to list, to at least a moderately comprehensive degree, the properties associated with each element so that we don't have mages going around trying to cast spells that aren't in their realm.

Do we need explanation of the spheres in each "School" entry? Are these necessary, given that the spheres are pretty much the same regardless of element? Perhaps instead of discussing spheres, we should try to find a different way of organizing properties? And if we decide to do this, how can we categorize the properties we've identified in some sort of comprehensible manner?

[Deklitch Hardin]

Rayne/Mina/Aos ...

I know there are the four elements, and I know that there is the magic academy in Ximax (I helped with the rewrite of Ximax Academy and Ximax city and I have a [very basic] volkek oshra fire mage on the RPG side) but I don't really fully know much more than that. Some questions from me to help me overcome the breaks in my understandings of these items. These aren't really related to your discussion questions, and so I've used letters to identify my questions as being different.

A/ When you say schools, are there just the four of them one for each element or are there more or less than four?

B/ Can someone go into one school do a bit here/there from that one then go to another one, do a bit from that one and so forth or not?
i If not, is it physically impossible to do so (the person would explode/lose their mind/something similar) or is it simply taboo/something that isn't done?
ii If it is taboo, what would happen to anyone who tried to do that?
iii Are there any stories of anyone who tried to do that in the past?

C/ What is the purpose behind the existence of the physical and spiritual aspects of each element?
i Does physical mean that things actually happen in the physical world and spiritual mean that it is simply thought that it happens?
ii Are things in the physical aspect more permanent than the things in the spiritual aspect?

I'm just curioius that's all and thanks for your answers.

[Valan Nonesuch]

As far as I know (and I really should probably leave this to the experts)
the existence of physical/spiritual properties both "exist" in the sense that when affected with magic they can produce measurable effects.

Spiritual property tend to affect the target in less "overt" (for lack of a better word) than the physical. A physical property like say "heat" for fire is fairly easy to notice. Something gets hot. A spiritual property like say... Permanence (and forgive me if I've gotten this wrong) is a little harder to point out. Permanence is something that doesn't change, or which takes effort to change. Which is a little harder to prove, in the long run.

As far as Permanence goes as a property, I'd see it as the spiritual side of earth's physical stability.
You could say that the castle walls are stable. They've been well built and won't fall over easily. But they've also been built to last, thus they exhibit permanence. They won't change easily either.

An easier comparison between stability and permanence in strong and weak states would be writing. If I scratch some words in the sand, they're easily changed. They have low stability, because sand while probably earth-aligned, is soft. It has give, it can be shaped and moulded easily. They also have low permanence. Wind could blow them away, water could wash them away, I could kick sand over them and they're gone as though they had never existed. If I carve the same words an inch deep into a block of stone, they're hard. The stone is stable. It won't crumble apart in your hands like dirt. They're also very permanent. I can't change those words easily. To get rid of them you'd probably have to destroy the stone itself, reducing the stability to nothing, essentially.

Hopefully that helps Dek.

[Rayne (Alýr)]

A/ When you say schools, are there just the four of them one for each element or are there more or less than four?

There are technically six school: Wind, Water, Earth Fire (The Elemental Schools) and Xeua and Ecua (The Arch Schools). These last two involve focusing, not on the ounia, but the xeua that connects them

B/ Can someone go into one school do a bit here/there from that one then go to another one, do a bit from that one and so forth or not?

They can, but it's difficult and usually discouraged. There is occasionally a progression, though. Often mages of the Xeua and Ecua school started out in the Elemental Schools.

i If not, is it physically impossible to do so (the person would explode/lose their mind/something similar) or is it simply taboo/something that isn't done?

I don't see anything particularly deleterious happening to someone if he/she changed schools. Keep in mind, though, that spells take a long time to learn, and you have to become aligned to a whole new element!

ii If it is taboo, what would happen to anyone who tried to do that?
iii Are there any stories of anyone who tried to do that in the past?

Not that I know of.

C/ What is the purpose behind the existence of the physical and spiritual aspects of each element?
i Does physical mean that things actually happen in the physical world and spiritual mean that it is simply thought that it happens?

Physical aspects are aspects that effect the world you perceive with your five senses. If I freeze a glass of water or make a reindeer's nose begin to close, I'm make a physical change.

Spiritual aspects are aspects that you don't necessarily perceive in terms of physical things. If I make someone angry, or make their thoughts seem to float away, or calm them down. I've made a 'spiritual' change--something that effects the mind or emotions.

ii Are things in the physical aspect more permanent than the things in the spiritual aspect?

Not necessarily. If I make a stone turn hot or cold, I've made a physical change that, because it's in the true nature of that car'all (i.e. the car'all is "accustomed" to that sort of change), may take a while to dissipate. If I take the same rock and make it float, that effect may not last very long, because the car'all of the rock isn't accustomed to that sort of change.

Spiritual changes are the same way. If someone is prone to being angry and you make them angry, it may last. However, in general, spiritual changes don't last as long because you're fighting against a living will, the will that 'inhabits' that car'all you're affecting--and everything else being equal, your target has more control over his/her car'all than you do.


Magic is still pretty rough, so Mina and Aos may have different perspectives to this, but I hope it helps. 

[Aos]

I don't have time to respond to everything right now; just a quick observation:

Hmm... I'm a bit confused by your explanation Valan. From your description, stability and permanence seem to be the same (physical). I would say the difference isn't between stability and permanence per se, but between making a wall more stable (physical) and making someone's thoughts more stable (spiritual).

The easiest way to distinguish between physical and spiritual is that spiritual aspects of properties can only affect sentient beings. You can make a dog calm, but not a rock. Physical aspects of properties affect the physical world; spiritual properties affect the mind/emotions/psyche/"soul".

Hope that helps

[Mina]

Do we need explanation of the spheres in each "School" entry? Are these necessary, given that the spheres are pretty much the same regardless of element? Perhaps instead of discussing spheres, we should try to find a different way of organizing properties? And if we decide to do this, how can we categorize the properties we've identified in some sort of comprehensible manner?

I assume that when it's all sorted out, there will be a entry for the Ximaxian system, like the other magical systems have, where the Spheres would be explained.  The Elemental Schools entries, I guess, would probably then be revised to include details on the properties.  I don't know if their sections on the Spheres should be kept.  We could probably decide that later. 

They can, but it's difficult and usually discouraged. There is occasionally a progression, though. Often mages of the Xeua and Ecua school started out in the Elemental Schools.

I thought that they were pretty much required to start as elemental magi first?  Well, I guess there could be some rare exceptions; I can't think of anything in the system, as we currently know it, that prevents magi from skipping elemental magic. 

I don't see anything particularly deleterious happening to someone if he/she changed schools. Keep in mind, though, that spells take a long time to learn, and you have to become aligned to a whole new element!

Maybe how this alignment thing works should be discussed later.  I never quite figured out what it meant, or why changing schools is that difficult.  I mean, I knew that's how it was intended to be, but I couldn't think of anything in the magic system itself that would cause this to be the case. 
Regarding physical vs. spiritual properties, I mostly agree with Rayne and Aos that physical properties are basically...physical.  Spiritual properties should cover everything else that isn't physical.  Currently, as mentioned, we seem to mostly go with mental or emotional things, but I'm hesitant to narrow it down to just that.  We might end up coming up with some property that isn't mental or emotional, but isn't physical either.  Animation (which seems to have been removed from the first post) could be one. 

[Aos]

1) Good point Mina on defining spiritual as 'anything that is not physical'. Animation is a tough one - hard to decide whether it is physical or spiritual.

2) Rayne, you mentioned that, aside from 'numbness' and 'randomness', you wanted to keep the other properties I listed under 'old/controversial'. I wonder if it might move the discussion along to include those (maybe coloured red?) and the summary under the first post. That might also focus our minds on finding the missing counterparts.

Maybe transformation-consumption as well?

Perhaps we could have the summary first, followed by the list, and then the Valan-style explanation of each property.

3) The ones that don't sit too well with me:

a. Clarity could also be physical - perhaps used to 'clear' murky liquids and render them transparent?

b. the earlier point about 'clarity' and 'stubbornness' not being opposites. How about 'obscurity'? (in both the physical and metaphorical/spiritual sense)

c. Agitation! You really hit the nail on the head with this one! I've been tying myself into knots trying to find the counterpart for 'tranquility'!

d. Calm-Passion: Two issues here: i) Calm and tranquil imho seem to be the same property (perhaps it could be listed as "Calm/tranquility --- Agitation". ii) Again the duality issue. How about 'cool/detached/dispassionate'?

e. Same issue with fludity-chaos - though I couldn't find an alternative for chaos.

4) A recurrent issue seems to be DQ 4. Perhaps we addressing it will help clear our thinking and open new possibilities? I've tweaked it a bit:

DQ4: Are there (read: do we want to have) properties that cannot be explained through the duality of opposing elements? In particular:

a) Are there properties for which the opposing element does not have the monopoly on the reciprocal property?

b) Can we have property pairs/counterparts which are not based on opposition and/or properties which do not have opposites? Eg: Fludity-chaos. Animation - perhaps the counterpart need not be 'lifelessness/deadness', which seems more earth than water.

c) Can a property have a counterpart/opposite governed by an element other than its counter-element? eg: intution (water) - reason/rationality(?) (wind?); order/stability (earth) - chaos/instability (fire)



Perhaps the solution could be to redefine/expand elemental interdependence to include relations not based on opposition. We could have:

a) counter-properties (opposites: hot vs cold). We could distinguish between 'opposite-element counter-properties' (hot: fire; cold: water) and cases where the counter-property is not governed by the elemental-counterpart. Maybe the opposite of stubbornness (earth) could be fluidity (water)? Maybe: stubborness-flexibility so as to leave fluidity a different counter-part

b) complementary-properties: clarity(wind)-translucence(water); serenity (wind? what would be the word for wind-like serenity of mind, a frame of mind that represents 'stillness in movement') - calm (water); cold (water) - numbness (earth): could tie in nicely with water being wind trying to be earth;

c) I know I had a 'c' but it appears to have run away with the gremlins. Let me think.  Ah! What about the kind of 'counter'-properties which are not really opposites? A property could have one black/white counterpart and then several others it 'disagrees with' in varying degrees.

d) 'two-sides of the same coin' type properties? transformation-consumption being the two sides of change

e) ?

[Aos]

Something else occurred to me: Could 'agility' be a property? Would it be wind? Or perhaps it's not a property in its own right but a manifestation of another property, say of 'movement'? Maybe swiftness (wind) and agility (water) - these could either be properties proper (hehe) or manifestations of movement (wind) and flow/fludity (water) respectively. Could be a nice example of my 'b' above (complementary properties).

[Deklitch Hardin]

Thanks all for your explanations.

Opposite of chaos - order?

[Aos]

order/stability (earth) - chaos/instability (fire)

Yep, that made most sense to me too. The only problem there would be that it is not the opposite element (water) that governs the counterpart. (See above)

We would still need to find a fire counterpart for fluidity though

[Ridgen Sú'ufanán]

What concerns me is that 'fluidity' is more or less equal to 'liquidity', liquid being one of three states of matter.

Question: Do all properties have to have exactly one property (of the opposite element) that opposes it?

Because all I can really come up with for this one property is something that goes three ways (fluidity - solidity - gaseousness)

Just my worthless two sans.

[Mina]

a. Clarity could also be physical - perhaps used to 'clear' murky liquids and render them transparent?

It's physical counterpart is supposed to be invisibility, I think.  Then again, I'm not quite sure how clarity is spiritual. 

b) Can we have property pairs/counterparts which are not based on opposition and/or properties which do not have opposites? Eg: Fludity-chaos. Animation - perhaps the counterpart need not be 'lifelessness/deadness', which seems more earth than water.

Languor or lethargy, perhaps.  I'm thinking of animation as a spiritual property that drives things to do things, basically the property that encourages activity.  Its counterpart would probably be a property that discourages activity, hence languor.  Water fits here, I think, since it represents changing from Wind-like to Earth-like. 

d) 'two-sides of the same coin' type properties? transformation-consumption being the two sides of change

Yeah, these probably exist, due to Wind/Earth and Fire/Water being more or less different classes of elements.  I think Wind and Earth represent different types of states, while Water and Fire represent different types of changes.  That should mean that each opposing pair also has things in common that can result in "two sides of the coin" properties. 

Yep, that made most sense to me too. The only problem there would be that it is not the opposite element (water) that governs the counterpart. (See above)

That depends on what you mean by "chaos".  Like I said in an earlier post, it was originally used to classify Water and Fire as the "changing" elements, whereas Wind and Earth were considered "orderly".  If "chaos" is now being used as the name for a Fire property, I think we need to know what that property is in order to determine what its counterpart is.  Perhaps it really is fluidity?

What concerns me is that 'fluidity' is more or less equal to 'liquidity', liquid being one of three states of matter.

Question: Do all properties have to have exactly one property (of the opposite element) that opposes it?

Because all I can really come up with for this one property is something that goes three ways (fluidity - solidity - gaseousness)

Well, each property has a counterpart in the opposite element.  It could be an opposing property, but I think it doesn't have to be.  As for the three states of matter, I think within the Ximaxian system they could be considered the result of mixing the elements in different proportions, assuming the magi have the same concept of the three states in the first place.  Fluidity is not about being liquid, but about being fluid, ie. changing to fit the environment.  An actual liquid would probably also have quite a bit of tangibility and other Earth influences. 

[Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr]

Fluidity actually refers, scientifically, to liquidity or gaseousness; from my limited understanding of magic, I presume it could here as well?

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