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Author Topic: Elemental Property Discussion  (Read 28524 times)
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Aos
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« Reply #75 on: 21 January 2012, 06:31:46 »

I see your point. But what about say 'tranquility'? Of which property is that an aspect?
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #76 on: 21 January 2012, 06:52:48 »

We have to decide that, but if I needed to make something on the spot, I would say that Harmony is the property. Tranquility is the spiritual aspect of that property, while Calm is the physical aspect.

A lot of this needs to be decided. We need to eke out what is an aspect, what is a property, and how the two relate.

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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #77 on: 21 January 2012, 17:19:57 »

How can calm be physical? Calming something/emotions down would be spiritual. If we are referring to 'calm waters' etc, that is actually the earth property of stillness.

I feel that at this point if we don't want to have the project run away from us, we need to set concrete goals and (as much as I hate them personally) deadlines. Would you say that is what kept the Ximax project(s) on track? Rayne, you are so wonderful at coordinating these group projects. Perhaps you could bring order before chaos has a chance to blossom? :)
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"Logic in the service of appreciation, and appreciation in the service of reverence, which, in the face of wonders not of our making, is our only proper response." Colin Tudge, The Secret Life of Trees
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« Reply #78 on: 22 January 2012, 00:33:26 »

Yes, calm as in "calm waters," or waters that aren't raging, but moving calmly. I would argue it is water rather than earth, because you're not "stilling." Here, in our world, we associate peace/tranquility/calmness/etc. with stillness. I'm not sure that Santharians would have the same view. Rather, I would see Santharians--especially elves--seeing that movement is natural, and therefore the heart of peace. At its most sublime, it rises above earthly things, but still moves (wind). At its most superficial, it moves contently on its way along the earth, forced to flow and avoid the things that would impede its necessary progress (water). So much of this goes back to perspective.

I agree--concrete goals are necessary. Based on what we've discussed up to this point, I'll see if I can put something together, but we need to decide how we're handling properties vs. aspects!
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #79 on: 22 January 2012, 01:20:49 »

I agree with wind representing peace. That's also why I suggested 'serenity' as a property of wind, to represent 'stillness (peace) in movement'. A bit like the concept of moving meditation.

I don't find the explanation of 'calm waters' particularly persuasive though. An analogy would be air, which is wind affected by earth. A river that is moving calmly rather than raging to my mind means the property of slowness (earth) acting upon motion (wind). I'm still having difficulty seeing calmness as a  separate water/physical property outside of the spiritual context.

Calmness (spiritual) might be one of the spiritual aspects of 'coalescence' perhaps?
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"Logic in the service of appreciation, and appreciation in the service of reverence, which, in the face of wonders not of our making, is our only proper response." Colin Tudge, The Secret Life of Trees
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« Reply #80 on: 22 January 2012, 01:46:29 »

Quote
"Clear mind, calm heart, continuous motion. These are all the qualities of a single element,” spoke the wind mage. “Perhaps embracing one may engender the others. Let us walk together.”
:)

Is a calmly-running river and a raging river are both a river influenced by another element, than what is a river in its natural state, uninfluenced by other elements?

Coalescence as the property and calmness as the spiritual aspect work for me. Really, most of the issue in properties/aspects will be issues of nomenclature, not philosohy. It's all perspective, in this case.

I really think we need to step back a bit and look at those 'properties' we've already derived, sort out properties from aspects, and try to do a bit of organization. We've been treating those 'properties' we've derived as aspects, but we need to figure out which is which before I can do any real integration into our nascent entry.
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #81 on: 22 January 2012, 02:11:11 »

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what is a river in its natural state, uninfluenced by other elements?

That is a good question! :) Though I wonder if it is ever possible to have something which is influenced by only one element. Even a drop of water is not the Element of Water alone. Perhaps the fact that it is a 'river' already suggests a wind (motion) influence?
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« Reply #82 on: 22 January 2012, 02:25:25 »

Well, water's origin is wind. Water is likely to have some of the same properties as its origin and desire element, just like fire, but will "translate" them, so to speak, into an expression that is Water by nature.

So I'm thinking the best way to break elements/properties/aspects down, at least initially, is to arrange them like so:

  ELEMENT     PROPERTY    Physical Aspect   Spiritual Aspect 
  WATER      FLOW    Fluidity    Flexibility/Adaptability 
  WATER    COALESCENCE     Cohesion    Calm/Tranquility 
  WATER    COLD     Chill    Dispassion 

Does this work for everyone? Can we begin separating these out? Once we get some of these down in a form we can wrap our heads around, we'll be in a better place to see inconsistencies, debate anomalies, and--most importantly--find solutions!
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #83 on: 22 January 2012, 02:27:21 »

Regarding the issue with Calm, I think we should remember that the names of the properties and aspects are just names.  What they actually mean depends on how we define them. 

Quote
Though I wonder if it is ever possible to have something which is influenced by only one element.
I'd say probably not, at least not in Caelereth.  Maybe bored researchers would try to isolate the elements, but given the way all four elements are present everywhere and joined together by Xeua, I doubt it could really be done. 
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« Reply #84 on: 22 January 2012, 02:50:22 »

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the names of the properties and aspects are just names.
Yes!

I've grown the list a little, but I do need help with this!

  ELEMENT     PROPERTY    Physical Aspect   Spiritual Aspect 
  WATER      FLOW    Fluidity    Flexibility/Adaptability 
  WATER    COALESCENCE     Cohesion    Calm/Tranquility 
  WATER    COLD     Chill    Dispassion 
  WIND    CLARITY     Invisibility    Perception 
  WIND    AIRINESS     Lightness    Effervescence 
  WIND    MOVEMENT     Motion    [...] 
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #85 on: 22 January 2012, 03:03:41 »

Quote
WIND      CLARITY        Invisibility      Perception
Well, since one of the aspects is Invisibility, I would guess that the property has to do with being hard to perceive.  The spiritual aspect then, rather than being Perception, might be more about lack of perception, or maybe being difficult to think about or remember? 

Quote
WIND      MOVEMENT        Motion      [...]
Movement is about, well, not staying still.  I can't think of how this would manifest spiritually.  Maybe it has something to do with transience, or maybe that's a different property? 
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« Reply #86 on: 22 January 2012, 03:23:38 »

With Invisibility and Perception, I think it depends a lot on perspective. Let's go back to the property, Clarity: if you said a glass was clear, it would mean you were able to see through it. If you had an argument and you said that the argument was clear, it wouldn't mean that it would be difficulty to understand. It would rather mean that you perceive it clearly, you can see what the author is saying.


We do have "Impermanence" as a property of wind. Perhaps "Movement" is just another way of saying that?
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #87 on: 22 January 2012, 03:28:24 »

How about 'transparency' as the spiritual aspect?

Also, perhaps 'detachment' rather than 'dispassion'? 'Dispassion' seems so... lifeless to me.
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« Reply #88 on: 22 January 2012, 05:44:33 »

Transparency seems very physical to me. And keep in mind you would be casting this on a person: you cast perception on someone, they perceive more clearly; you cast transparency on someone.... they become transparent?

I agree with your assessment of "dispassion." I've changed it to detachment/apathy.

  ELEMENT     PROPERTY    Physical Aspect   Spiritual Aspect 
  WATER      FLOW    Fluidity    Flexibility/Adaptability 
  WATER    COALESCENCE     Cohesion    Calm/Tranquility 
  WATER    COLD     Chill    Detachment/Apathy 
  WIND    CLARITY     Invisibility    Perception 
  WIND    AIRINESS     Lightness    Effervescence 
  WIND    MOVEMENT     Motion    [...] 
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #89 on: 23 January 2012, 18:10:35 »

How about 'Lightness' as the property, with 'weightlessness' as the physical aspect and 'effervescence', 'absent-mindedness' (floating thoughts), 'light-heartedness' and 'lightheadedness' (dizziness) as the spiritual aspects. This could be an example of a property that has more than one spiritual aspect.

Also I wonder whether Clarity: Perception can be used in two ways, depending on the manipulation: increasing it in a particular way might render the target's thoughts and sentiments 'invisible' to himself, which could be one spell; and increasing it in another way might help you perceive a situation more clearly, which could be a different spell.

Hmm. That makes me wonder if there might actually be two underlying properties, which are closely related:

(i) CLARITY: Transparency (P) - Perception (S)
(ii) [name]: Invisibility (P) - [Concealment/the Unseen - needs a new name] (S)

PS: When I suggested transparency as a spiritual aspect earlier, I had in mind 'emotional transparency' or being able to see through an argument etc.

PS2: 'Water is likely to have some of the same properties as its origin and desire element, just like fire, but will "translate" them, so to speak, into an expression that is Water by nature.' -- Rayne this is a great sentence. Perhaps we could include it somewhere in the 'Elemental Character' section?

PS3: Maybe a small edit: 'Cohesion/Absorption' (P)
« Last Edit: 23 January 2012, 19:34:26 by Aos » Logged

"Logic in the service of appreciation, and appreciation in the service of reverence, which, in the face of wonders not of our making, is our only proper response." Colin Tudge, The Secret Life of Trees
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