Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

Rayne (Alýr)

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Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

« on: 21 January 2012, 07:24:14 »

Flexing my Styrásh muscles, I thought I would challenge myself to writing yet again another Styrásh poem. I used this in a post RP-side, but thought it might be good to bring over to Dev-side so I could get the help of Mina, Arti, and others in making this better. I still feel a bit uncertain about some things. Some issues I had:

1) I've used present/past participle as a gerund, which I'm not sure is correct.
2) I know that Styrán doesn't take any accusative; does this get confusing in the poem?

And yes, though a bit rough in places, this is a RHYMING Styrásh poem. First ever!

And took forever to do! I'm hoping it'll get easier to do this as I get more familiar with the vocabulary.

Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

In 207 b.S. a army of orcs, in search of the sons of Coór'melór, tore through Boldar Forest. All elves within the forest were killed. The once thriving Aellenrhim tribe was brought to the brink of extinction, and their once beautiful homeland was turned to ashes. This song arose from that time of sorrow.

While the poem's author is debated, many attribute the song to A'hris, an Aellenrhim Bard who survived the attack and hid one of Aia'merán's children with the High Avá’ránn in Thaelon. It remains a widely-known song, kept close to the heart of a tribe that never fully recovered from its loss.

Xaí í án Eyaí

Styrát só ciaér fá só aváshís á sóh querínó
só telór fá sá cár'reóllís iuá xaí í án eyaí.
Helvát sá cór é ancianathé á sóh herínó
ám daérá iú sóh melórían foár sá liso’silarnaí.

Maachát só miés'efér'óh foár só moh’galnósó
Dalanté ám harfanté énh shatóría só mohílím
Náfreanté sáh valanájía iuá ú én helvósó
Náh quaeláranté é én ó'órí í én glásáj’helvílím

Stygeyás qué sóh ael'ónían fá sáh eferi’pheranías?
Styrát só ciaér fá só neí fá án avathcin styryáí.
Stygeyás qué só ciaérím fá sáh lóli’vévanías?
Styrát só telór fá só cár'reóllís iuá xaí í án eyáí.

Longing for Peace

The sound of the wind through the leaves
is the song of my heart longing for peace.
The night wanders silently through the clouds
and I fear the shadows on the waning moon.

The starlight sleeps on the dark stone.
Wings rise and touch the darkness.
my dreams dim in an exile
But glow with an everlasting light for a grieving wanderer.

Can you hear the tears of the burning trees?
It is the sound of the ending of a beautiful life.
Can you hear the sound of crying birds?
It is the song of my heart longing for peace.


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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn

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Re: Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

« Reply #1 on: 21 January 2012, 23:09:22 »

Quote

1) I've used present/past participle as a gerund, which I'm not sure is correct.

I'm not sure about gerunds either, but I don't really see anything wrong with how you used it here.

Quote

2) I know that Styrán doesn't take any accusative; does this get confusing in the poem?

It's probably alright. "X is Y" and "Y is X" pretty much mean the same thing anyway.

An interlinear gloss, like you had in the last Styrash poem, would help a lot with checking and analysing the grammar. I've gone ahead and made one, and also added some comments in lime green.

How do you decide whether to use dative or ablative? It looks slightly different from how I would do it, so I'm wondering if you have your own rules for them.

Styr-át só ciaér fá só avásh-ís á sóh querín-iám
be-3.Sg the.Masc.Sg sound.Nominative.Sg of the.Masc.Sg wind-Genitive.Sg through the.Masc.Pl leaf-Dative.Pl
I guess ciaér is a word you invented to mean "sound"? I don't see it in the dictionary.

só telór fá só cár'reóll-ís iuá xa-í í án eya-í.
the.Masc.Sg song.Nominative.Sg of the.Masc.Sg heart-Genitive.Sg my long-Pres.Participle for a.Fem.Sg peace-Dative.Sg
Cár'reóll is feminine, so the article should be sá. I'm not sure if "peace" should be singular; feels a little odd to me. The present participle of xán should actually be xí, although given how short it is, I could see it be irregular instead.

Helv-át sá cór é anciana-thé á sóh herín-iám
wander-3.Sg the.Fem.Sg night.Nominative.Sg with silence-Ablative.Fem.Sg through the.Masc.Pl cloud-Dative.Pl
Helván is new too?

ám daér-á iú sóh melór-ían foár sá liso-silarna-í.
and fear-1.Sg I the.Masc.Pl shadow-Accusative.Masc.Pl on the.Fem.Sg wane.Pres.Participle-moon-Dative.Sg

Chuh-át só miés'efér'óh foár só moh-galnós-ó
fall-3.Sg the.Masc.Sg starlight.Nominative.Sg on the.Masc.Sg dark-stone-Ablative.Masc.Sg
I notice that you use the ablative case with "on" here, but the dative case in the previous line. Any particular reason?

Dal-anté ám harf-anté sá shatór-ía só mohíl-ím
rise-3.Pl and touch-3.Pl the.Fem.Sg Wing-Nominative.Fem.Pl the.Masc.Sg darkness-Accusative.Masc.Sg
I think you got the article for "wings" wrong. It appears to be plural and indefinite in your translation, so it should probably be énh.

Náfre-anté sáh valanáj-ía iuá ú én helvós-ó
dim-3.Pl the.Fem.Pl dream-Nominative.Fem.Pl my in a.Masc.Sg exile-Ablative.Masc.Sg

Náh quaelár-anté é én ó-ór-í í én glásáj-helvíl-ím
but glow-3.Pl with a.Masc.Sg everlasting-light-Dative.Sg for a.Masc.Sg grief-wanderer-Accusative.Masc.Sg
Hmm, quaelár is actually a noun. Although creating a verb quaelarán meaning "to glow" might work.

Stygey-ás qué sáh ael'ón-ían fá sáh efer-pheran-ías?
hear-2.Sg you.Nominative.Sg the.Fem.Pl tear-Accusative.Masc.Pl of the.Fem.Pl burn.Pres.Participle-tree-Genitive.Pl
Stygeyás qué...? is more like "do you hear...?", I think, rather than "can you hear...?" as in your translation, although in this context, it might not make much difference. The article for "tear" should be masculine instead of feminine. Also, I would suggest using eferi for "burning", rather than the shortened form efer, since that could also mean "fire".

Styr-át só ciaér fá só nea-í í án avathcin styryá-í.
be-3.Sg the.Masc.Sg sound.Nominative.Sg of the.Masc.Sg end-Pres.Participle for a.Fem.Sg beautiful life-Dative.Sg
"Ending", assuming it is regular, should be neí. Also, cár is probably a better choice for "life" here; styryá means "place of existing/being". There's a nó missing from the sentence too, assuming it wasn't dropped intentionally. And I think you might have accidentally switched fá with í, since your translation says "of" rather than "for".

Stygey-ás qué só ciaér-ím fá sáh lóli-vévan-ías?
hear-2.Sg you.Nominative.Sg the.Masc.Sg sound-Masc.Sg of the.Fem.Pl cry.Pres.Participle-bird-Genitive.Pl

Styr-át só telór fá só cár'reóll-ís iuá xa-í í án eyá-í.
be-3.Sg the.Masc.Sg song.Nominative.Sg of the.Masc.Sg heart-Genitive.Sg my long-Pres.Participle for a.Fem.Sg Peace-Dative.Sg
This line is missing a nó too.


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Rayne (Alýr)

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Re: Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

« Reply #2 on: 22 January 2012, 06:15:37 »

Quote

I guess ciaér is a word you invented to mean "sound"? I don't see it in the dictionary.

Quote

Helván is new too?

Quote

Hmm, quaelár is actually a noun. Although creating a verb quaelarán meaning "to glow" might work.

Erk. I've been utterly remiss in tracking all this. I derived a few of the words that weren't in the dictionary. I probably should have done that for clarity's sake. buck

I'm sorry, Mina.

ciaér = noun (m.) = sound
helván = verb = wander
quaelarán = verb = glow

I think some of my ablatives are wrong, as you pointed out. My question, before I change them (in order to try to maintain the rhyme scheme) is whether "ú én helvós-ó" should be "ú én helvós-í," taking the dative rather than the ablative. If this sound more correct, I'll change both this and "galnós" in the first line; if it's the ablative, I'll change the preposition in the "galnós" line so it can keep the ablative form.

If styryá doesn't work, I'll probably change the line entirely; though I need to know what's to be done with "peace." Is it plural or singular? How do we even tell? undecided

Stylistically, I want to keep it undefined. I like the diminutive quality expressed through the singularity, because it adds a tinge of desperation to the voice of the poem ("I don't need a lot of peace--just a little"). I wonder how the word is treated in other languages. (Japanese doesn't pluralize 'peace').

Thank you, Mina! heart

Have I told you lately how wonderful you are?


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Re: Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

« Reply #3 on: 22 January 2012, 13:13:51 »

Quote

I think some of my ablatives are wrong, as you pointed out. My question, before I change them (in order to try to maintain the rhyme scheme) is whether "ú én helvós-ó" should be "ú én helvós-í," taking the dative rather than the ablative. If this sound more correct, I'll change both this and "galnós" in the first line; if it's the ablative, I'll change the preposition in the "galnós" line so it can keep the ablative form.

I think it's more that I would use ablative for some of the things you used dative for. The three underlined phrases below are where I would have used ablative instead of dative.

The sound of the wind through the leaves
is the song of my heart longing for peace.
The night wanders silently through the clouds
and I fear the shadows on the waning moon.

But it's possible, maybe even probable, that many dialects could have expanded the uses of the dative case, at the expense of the ablative case. One way would be the conflation of destination (which I would normally use ablative for) with recipient. That sounds rather likely; a recipient is probably frequently a destination as well, I think.

Quote

If styryá doesn't work, I'll probably change the line entirely; though I need to know what's to be done with "peace." Is it plural or singular? How do we even tell? Stylistically, I want to keep it undefined. I like the diminutive quality expressed through the singularity, because it adds a tinge of desperation to the voice of the poem ("I don't need a lot of peace--just a little"). I wonder how the word is treated in other languages. (Japanese doesn't pluralize 'peace').

Hmm, the dimunitive idea is interesting. I guess that could work. The way English treats it makes it look a little like a proper noun.

Doesn't Japanese not have plurals at all, except for some pronouns?


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Rayne (Alýr)

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Re: Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

« Reply #4 on: 23 January 2012, 10:03:41 »

Regarding the Ablative; I think I was under the impression that this was used for things changing positions. Therefore, "through" would take the ablative, but "on" would not. I guess I sort of thought about it in the same way as the magic discussion: the ablative is for those prepositions of or implying movement (wind-like prepositions, if you will): from, to, toward, through, etc.; the dative was for those of stillness (earth-like prepositions): on, in, above, under, etc.

"Peace" is a non-counting noun, like "water," which is why it can come across as a proper noun, I think. Non-counting nouns don't always take articles--they're just not needed.

Quote

Doesn't Japanese not have plurals at all, except for some pronouns?

Correct. You can add -tachi to words like watashi (I) and get watashitachi (us), but this is only used for certain pronouns.


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Re: Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

« Reply #5 on: 23 January 2012, 11:54:56 »

Quote

Ah, that's an interesting system. I think it could work. The biggest obstacle to doing it this way would probably be the names of the two cases. As I understand it, dative roughly means "to" and ablative is roughly "away from", although they might also take on additional meanings. But if necessary, it could maybe be explained by saying that the names are there for historical reasons and the cases themselves no longer mean the same things. I don't know how likely it is for something like this to happen, but it doesn't seem overly implausible to me.

Edit: Thinking about this a little more, yes, I think it could be done. Latin's ablative case, on which the Styrash one is based, looks like it might have gained its locative meanings (at, in, on, etc.) by absorbing them from a separate locative case (Latin actually still had a locative case, but it was apparently rather vestigial). Suppose that the ancestor of Styrash also had a separate locative case, which in the version I described in the entry was absorbed into the ablative case entirely, it might be possible that in some dialects, it was absorbed into the dative case instead. That should produce something like what you were thinking of, although the dative case would still retain the recipient use (I don't know if you wanted it moved to the ablative case, but if you do, conflating it with the destination usage of the ablative would still be a valid option I think).


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Re: Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

« Reply #6 on: 23 January 2012, 14:25:28 »

The more I think about it, the more I wonder how much context bears on whether a case is dative or ablative. If I say that the land is under the sky, "sky" would seem to take the dative case, because there's no movement involved. However, if I say that the wind blew under her dress (isn't grammar scandalous?), would "dress" still be dative, given the subject had motion?

And I don't think we need to worry as much about the etymologies of dative and ablative; as far as I know, these words and how the grammar formed around them is something we can engineer, if need be.

I'm glad you like the idea, Mina. heart


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Re: Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)

« Reply #7 on: 23 January 2012, 14:41:56 »

Quote

I guess you might use the ablative case for that in Styrash. There are some English prepositions that don't really seem to distinguish between whether any movement is involved, like "on" and "under", though at least for "on" there's "onto" if you really need to make the distinction. If you're using a movement/location distinction for the Styrash ablative and dative, that could be one way to deal with ambiguous prepositions.

Quote

And I don't think we need to worry as much about the etymologies of dative and ablative; as far as I know, these words and how the grammar formed around them is something we can engineer, if need be.

That's true; being consistent is good enough. I guess I just like thinking about such things.


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Xaí í án Eyaí (Longing for Peace)