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Author Topic: Guilds - Collection of Ideas and What's There  (Read 5186 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« on: 21 October 2012, 03:53:42 »

Whoever will write an entry about guilds once will find this collection useful.

Here links to where anything is mentioned already:

Fymbels

King Lysarian (?)


Links about guilds in the internet:



Ideas below! found a useful link? Please post!
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #1 on: 21 October 2012, 04:14:24 »



I visited Passau in the last two days, a Bavarian city near the border to Austria and had a very interesting city tour. Some of the info I got there I want to post here to not to forget it.


 - Each guild house had a specific colour, butchers e.g. red, leatherworkers brown, ... A guild house in the neighbourhood had to have the same colour, so that the people who did not know to read saw, where he could find what, even in another town (approximately 100km around Passau?)

- The guild had to care for widows, their children and apprentices. So it was in the interest of the guild, that the widow married soon again. The right to practice that trade in the town remained with her also. That led to the 'custom', that journeymen (or young master craftsmen?) married such a widow to gain the title of master craftsman and the right to practise his trade. He could only marry a young woman, once the old had died...

Some widows were hard to be remarried though. To show, that she was a woman who was free to marry she wore purple (lilac). But it comes even better. To show traveling journeymen, that there was a widow of a former craftsmen free to marry, she painted half of her house in purple, so he could see immediately, which kind of craftsman-widow was free to marry.

There is a nice saying also:

"Wenn nix mehr hilft zieh' lila an, denn lila zieht die Männer an!"

If nothing helps don lilac, for lilac attracts the men.

Note:
anziehen= to attract and to dress

:D
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Mina
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« Reply #2 on: 21 October 2012, 04:24:16 »

The Wikipedia entry might be worth looking at.  It might not be suitable for academic work, but it's probably good enough for what we do here. 

Can't think of anything else online at the moment, but I read this book a few years back, and although I don't remember it very clearly, I think it should have some useful information, if you could find a copy. 
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #3 on: 21 October 2012, 16:12:52 »

Thanks Mina!
That book looks interesting, but it is a bit expensive, even as a kindle edition and I have some books about this subject already, but not what I looked for. . Well, Christmas is approaching.

I thought I had had a look into wikipedia already, but somehow it seems new to me ;).
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Altario Shialt-eck-Gorrin
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« Reply #4 on: 22 October 2012, 00:03:34 »

I see a copy on Ebay for about a third of the price of Amazon.
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« Reply #5 on: 22 October 2012, 00:07:13 »

You could try looking at libraries.  That's how I found it. 
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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #6 on: 24 October 2012, 17:52:29 »

Hmm...

Should the color-coordination be the same across the Kingdom? Or would the colors change as you went from, say, Voldar to New Santhala, or Nyermersys to Bardavos? I assume that there might be some variation across regions as kingdoms shifted and changed.

The tidbit about the liliac color is really interesting! I wonder how widely that was practiced.

Would it be useful to make a list of trades from which guilds might potentially spring? You already mentioned butchers and leatherworkers--maybe bakers, smiths, tailors, cobblers, hat-makers, clock-makers, jewelers (/lapidaries), fishers, sailors (and/or shipbuilders?), carpenters, etc.? I assume that these would, in general, tend to define artisans from peasants or farmers...
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #7 on: 24 October 2012, 23:43:05 »

Rayne, I do not plan to write an entry about guilds, I just wanted to create a place for ideas and links to entries , where a guild is mentioned (as will in the Lysarian entry - or how did I call this Santhran? ;) ). Anybody who does it is free to take the idea or not.

The city-guide in Passau said, this scheme was valid around 100 km around Passau, that included then a couple of major settlements, but not more. As Germany has always been divided in a lot of smaller fiefs (?) it was surely not valid over greater distances. If we want to adopt it, I would say, just in a province, maybe Caltharia, where they like colours and only in a certain span of time.
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« Reply #8 on: 25 October 2012, 01:02:47 »

I might be wrong, but the impression I get is that each medieval guild is typically associated with a specific city, so a guild's traditions and practices are probably limited to that city's area of influence.  Of course, there could be exceptions too.  Powerful city-states that dominated other cities, such as some of the Italian city-states like Venice, seem like likely exceptions.  It might be something to look into.  

The relatively fractured state of medieval Germany might be a factor, but I'm not very sure about that.  Most of medieval Europe was divided into fiefs anyway, even if they usually weren't as autonomous as the German ones, and in any case cities were generally somewhat autonomous with regard to the feudal system.  They might owe allegience to a lord, but they generally also had a certain degree of freedom, although I think the exact details depended on the city.  This might be worth looking at.  Pretty sure similar things happened elsewhere in Europe too; I think the book I mentioned previously had some examples from Continental Europe.  

What were the major settlements within 100km of Passau?  

Rather than an entire province or former kingdom in Santharia sharing the same guild, I would suggest diving thm by major cities instead.  So within the territory of Caltharia, Carmalad and Cavthan both seem to be quite prominent on the map, so they probably both have their own guilds, with their own traditions.  That still leaves a lot of space, which could have some important cities as well.  

As for what professions could have their own guilds, it depends on the city, as far as I know.  Bigger cities probably have more specialised guilds, while smaller cities might group relatively similar professions into the same guild.  You could look at some real cities for reference, such as the Guilds of Florence or London's Livery Companies.  

Edit: Regarding medieval cities in general, this could be another possible resource.  I'm pretty sure I once read a copy, but I don't remember where I got it from and it doesn't seem to be anywhere on my computer anymore.  It's probably not as reliable as the book, considering its intended purpose, but it's free. 
« Last Edit: 25 October 2012, 01:15:51 by Mina » Logged

Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #9 on: 25 October 2012, 11:52:17 »

I wasn't really thinking about doing an entry, per se, on guilds, but having a list of common guilds would be helpful for the development of specific places. Mina answered my question, I think:

I might be wrong, but the impression I get is that each medieval guild is typically associated with a specific city, so a guild's traditions and practices are probably limited to that city's area of influence.


I'm thinking about the guild environment of Vardynn. If guild practices are uniform across all of Santharia, than more inter-developmental discussion would probably be required before I really put anything down on paper. However, if guild practices are provincially unique or at least relatively autonomous/independent, then this is something I can begin drawing up for Vardynn.

Mina, do you think all of Vardynn would likely have the same guild practices, given its history? The Erpheronian Kingdom controlled the whole area for quite a long time, and with the Erpheronians being as disciplined/militaristic as they are, I assume that they would have compelled some sort of conformity.


As a note, I'm still of the opinion that a list of Santharia's guilds might be useful. People could choose what guilds might operate in their city, and perhaps it might spark inspiration among some developers to write up a description for individual guilds.
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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #10 on: 25 October 2012, 12:32:09 »

:D

IMHO, I think the smaller regional guilds are more realistic, and offer more opportunity for interesting interaction later.

In a society such as ours, it makes it difficult to have uniform societies throughout in the form of guilds.  Santharia is a kingdom made up of very different provinces descending from very different kingdoms.  It does not make sense that a network of guilds would have come in and established themselves on that scale.

Now, I'm all for having a few guilds being larger than others, and trying to create a kingdom sized monopoly, but not all of them.  All the more interesting if the masons from Vardynn are finding the upstart mason guild from Nyermersys is encroaching on their turf.  Perhaps there are or have been nasty turf wars, perhaps leading to violence and intimidation.

But, again, that is simply my opinion. :D
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« Reply #11 on: 25 October 2012, 14:29:04 »

Quote
Mina, do you think all of Vardynn would likely have the same guild practices, given its history? The Erpheronian Kingdom controlled the whole area for quite a long time, and with the Erpheronians being as disciplined/militaristic as they are, I assume that they would have compelled some sort of conformity.
Probably not all of Vardynn; a significant part of it was Centoraurian, not Erpheronian.  The Centoraurians don't seem like they would tolerate attempts to enforce conformity, even after both kingdoms became parts of Tharania.  So maybe just the Erpheronian parts of the province.  I don't think real medieval states were that centralised or uniform, but it should be possible to come up with a reasonable explanation.  Perhaps something to do with the relationship between Erpheronian royalty and Voldar. 

But like Altario, I think making things less uniform is probably more interesting.  Then again, it might not be necessary to choose between them; there's thousands of years of history to fill up. 
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« Reply #12 on: 25 October 2012, 16:45:44 »

I admit, I haven't read much about this stuff yet - but I thought, that guilds were stretching over the whole country. Maybe not all were present in Strata , sea related only in the porttowns and so on. There rules in each house may be different apart from some basic ones. At least I thought I should write something along that line for Santhran Lysarian I'm dealing with right now. The Fymbels are already such a group of guilds which is present over the whole of Sarvonia at a time, where Lysarian should strengthen the idea of guilds.

Don't mix up guilds with companies. The Stormcloaks Guild is not a guild, it is a company, a business brought to live by a single man (or brothers?), and is run by a head master.

Well, don't let it become too complicated!  I think I introduce the wish of the Santhran for a Santharian wide guild project - it can break down after the Golden Age of Kings - or become a major foothold(?) for the crumbling, leaderless society.
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« Reply #13 on: 25 October 2012, 17:28:50 »

I'm not mixing up guilds and companies.  The Livery Companies were originally guilds, back in medieval times. 

As for Lysarian instituting some kind of Santharia-wide guild system, I can think of two possibilities.  The first is that guilds could be something that Lysarian invented, which started out as kingdom-wide organisations that later broke up into local guilds when the central government started to lose power.  Alternatively, guilds could be something that existed before Lysarian, but he established some kind of centralised control over them, so for example all the blacksmith guilds in Santharia might be required to join a kingdom-wide Council of Blacksmith Guilds that would set common standards and practices and things like that.  When the central government weakens, and later when the kingdom starts to break apart, some of them might evolve into international organisations like the Hanseatic League, and some of them might break up completely with the local guilds regaining their independence. 

As for complexity, I think Santharia should be complicated.  It's the size of a continent, and has thousands of years of history; making things simple and uniform would probably not be realistic.  An extraordinary ruler might manage it for a while, but the complexity and messiness will probably still return eventually. 
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #14 on: 26 October 2012, 00:49:45 »

Quote
As for complexity, I think Santharia should be complicated.  It's the size of a continent, and has thousands of years of history; making things simple and uniform would probably not be realistic.  An extraordinary ruler might manage it for a while, but the complexity and messiness will probably still return eventually. 


True, true, true, but this way we need another 100 years to get all worked out!
I'll try to be at vague as possible ;)
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