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Author Topic: Storyline proposal  (Read 9708 times)
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Smith in Exile
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« on: 05 March 2003, 10:06:00 »

I want to discuss here the sketch of a "storyline" that may be included in the santharian lore. Previously I have already worked out some issues with Artimidor and also you can find traces of it in the "Joining" forum (under the thread "Possible new member: Cristian"). What I am going to outline further here is just a sketch, as many of this story's features should be discussed and agreed upon before some entries could be made.

Overview.

The "storyline" concerns a certain guild that teaches what we may call a "carpa'dosian heresy". The practical consequences of this heresy though, remain to be seen (and decided :)  ).

Issues. (I will try to present them in a chronological order)

1. The Spirit Dragon.

My source here is, of course, the santharian bestiary (Sinen Darkchild's entry about the Spirit Dragon). We may learn from there that there are supposedly only eight such Spirit Dragons, a kind of an energetical being that inhabits the souls of the other creatures in a symbiotic manner (the dragon lives and the host is granted some increased powers). This Dragons are also supposedly driven by three questions: "Why do some people treasure life so much?"; "Why do other creatures seek to destroy that life?"; "What is this life that these creatures treasure or destroy?". Also their origins are unknown (just beliefs) and as long as they inhabit a soul they are meant to be immortals.
Now, I took the liberty to use this for my purposes, mainly because the concept seemed very interesting and because there was enough of a myst and uncertainty floating around it... Let's see.

In some point of history (is not too important when although we may decide this) one of those eight dragons decided that it would be much more wise if he would try to search for his answers by using the help of some other beings as well. As by inhabiting people's souls he learned about some of their myths and wisdom. Thus a congregation was borned around the central figure of a character inhabited by such a dragon - it's easy to think about this, since that character must have some special enhanced features. With time though, this congregation became very organized (naturally, as with every institution :)  ) developing a special set of beliefs and behaviours (all serving, of course, the dragon's hunger for knowledge). Following in a logical manner would be the observation that this dragon must always remain concealed (and the knowledge about him to be revealed perhaps only to the host/leader) so the good functioning of this organization could work.

Now such an extended symbiosis could not remain without consequences for the dragon himself. So, by trying to find the answers, he started to analyse the questions as well (you'll see a little bit further why). So first, this questions may be reduced into a single one - a question about life, the essence of life - but only to lead towards another one (which may seem deeper in such a point of reasoning): a question about "self" (to make a little joke: "what is life, but who am I to ask that?") So the answer to this question becomes the dragon's main purpose, as he starts to regard the knowledge of self as the highest knowledge of all, the knowledge that can take you to wisdom (and from that point every other question will find its answer [ouch :)  Descartes? nah... I don't want to think about that lol... he doesn't exist in santharia...] )

The dragon, took this congregation in an isolated place, persuading them to a monastic life, trying to stretch the boundaries of logical thinking in finding a path towards the inner self. I can develop this a little further but right now that would only blur the overall image - though I guess I will have to do this eventually. But right now I think we need to concentrate on the other matters.

2. The Guild.

They are humans (as only humans are capable of such a heresy - if not any other reasons, remember the Xeua-concept's developement)
But first we need to agree upon the inital location in which this congregation started its work. In the older santharian files (previous to the more recent update on Nybelmar) I found some references about a certain "Dark Realm of the Circle". It was about the area just north of Aca-Santerra, the peninsula surrounded by mountains in the east of Nybelmar. Now this area is still there and you can check Koldar Mondrakken's excellent maps ;) . Any references to this realm though, have been forgotten with the new update (which suits this story greatly, in my opinion). Actually it was that mention that gave me these ideas. But let me tell you what I remember (I know I have that file on a disk somewhere but I just couldn't find it). Supposedly this area (called the Circle, because of the shape of those mountains) was very hard to access and thus it remained even more mysterious than the whole continent was. Despite this there was a mention about a "white wizard" who explored the cliffs of the mountains and reported back some confusing stories. Among those stories there were some mentionings about some strange people living there, dark rituals, and an even more strange name: "Servants of Draco". These stories gave birth to this name, "Dark Realm of the Circle", shrouding with even more confusion and fear the area inside the mountains. Now, all these are gone, but I'd say that we shouldn't loose the tremendous story-potential that they were presenting; besides we are more free now to let our imagination "fly" :)

The organizational structure must be of a "circle" type also. In the center we have the leader (hosting the dragon), and around him different "circles of power" are structuring. As we may read in the dragon's description in bestiary, not every soul is suited for inhabiting. So a leader may be only the person with the highest level of "spirituality". Also, the knowledge of the dragon is hidden, so instead of worshiping the dragon, the members are "worshiping" what they call "spirit". They value knowledge and, above all, the knowledge of self - from which we derive this spirit concept (the essence, the truth about something/someone, the nature, the life of a thing). Therefore their lifes are driven by the very same hunger for knowledge (as the dragon's), and thus they have developed a very interpretive mind, a very logical and reason-oriented nature. They disregard the previous religious beliefs, as they are only seeing them as sources of knowledge.

In some point of this congregation's history we may imagine now a very important event. They must contact some of the elvish beliefs. So (thinking about their reclusive behaviour) we can imagine a shipwreck, with a surviving dark elf. Such a newness was too tempting for the dragon to let it pass unused. So the elf became (despite all traditions) the leader of the congregation. This thing started a sort of a "revolution" among them and very soon the dragon understood that he must get rid of the elf if he wanted to keep the rest of the people together. The turmoil passed but the elvish stories brought by that unfortunate dark elf stayed. The congregation and the dragon as well found themselves fascinated by the elvish myths of creation and especially by this new (for them) concept of "Ava".

Thus the "spreading" began. The dragon and his people, decided that it might be the time to step to a different level of knowledge-seeking, meaning trying to understand and to find the truth in the other's paths towards wisdom. So they decided to infiltrate various smaller organizations in the nearby kingdoms (and further). A network of smaller "guilds" organized by the mother-guild structure (in circles).
First they have infiltrated Aca-Santerra (I leave this "as is" because my interest for now is focusing on a single such smaller guild), and maybe Korwein and some other Nybelmarian kingdoms. But from Aca-Santerra they arrived on the Sarvonian continent - in the south, in Truban.
This particular branch though, being quite faraway from the mother-guild's influence, studying the elvish myths, have developed quite an original interpretation - merging the Ava concept with that of the Spirit, and interpreting Coor in a (...let's say) non-ethical manner, all together with a different vision about the essence and role of the Tree of Life.

This is the heresy I was talking about, and the intrigue point for (I say) a lot of interesting developements.

3. Entries

Speaking with Artimidor, I have decided that first I can write two texts. One from a sage's perspective, unveiling some things about the guild and another one as a "sacred" text of the mother-guild. But until then, we need to agree here on the various points of this story.

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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #1 on: 05 March 2003, 10:11:00 »

I am going to paste here a fragment from some other post I wrote in the "Joining" forum. This explains the structure of what I was refering to as "heresy"

Could be Ava what they thought is "spirit" until now? Could she be the Spirit? The answer was no. But they also left behind the worshipping of the spirit (but still that concept stayed in their background) and started to deepen the study and interpretation of Ava.
At this point I know you have the objection that human beliefs are other and that Ava is but an elvish concept. But think about this particular type of humans if not at humans themselves as a race. They were isolated for so long and they believe in the existence of this "spirit" or essence. They have no concept of "chosen people" or nation. This actually opens them towards acquiring, studying or even adopting foreign beliefs and philosophies (knowing that their leader is a spirit dragon I'd say that this opening becomes obvious).
So Ava is not the spirit but the spirit may be thought as being intimately linked (built inside) to Ava's essence. (I am doing this so the interpretation would be more clear, more explicit)
But what is Ava then? The Dreamer. She dreams thus we exists. But in her dream she met her counterpart (Coor). What is Coor then? But we cannot answer to this but only through another question. Also we are not allowed to answer to this directly as the essence of Coor is not different from the essence of Ava. As Ava is the Dreamer. So what would be this other question? "What is dreaming?" (in the both senses) Dreaming is mirroring. As Ava cannot dream of something which is not in her essence. Ava cannot dream of a total Other as this Other is nothing else but non-existence. Ava may dream of the Opposite and Ava may dream of something and this something is Other as it is not the Dreamer. So the mirroring is Coor. Mirroring herself she sees Coor. Though not even this answers completely to "What is Coor?" - as the elves emphasize the moral difference between Coor and Ava (as their aesthetical cosmology is built on moral grounds).
So why is Ava known and accepted only by the elves? - they asked then. And they answered: Ava is veiled. Thus the races does not perceive her. The elves [they are represented by the element of "wind"...] perceive her but they must be perceiving her in a wrong way, as she is veiled to them as well. So Ava is veiled. And she is veiled because Dreaming is mirroring. She is veiled as the subject can only be veiled [remember the spirit dragon? keep in mind that their original beliefs are the background of this (mis)interpretation]. The subject as the subject of all. Ava may look upon, may look upon her essence, but in the process of looking she can only be veiled (to herself) - otherwise she cannot look at all. So the elves perceive the withdrawal of Ava as being caused by her "meeting" with Coor, and they place this movement on moral grounds. But in fact, the withdrawal is nothing else but the veiling, and is in Ava's essence. The elves are illegally (says the guild) placing moral grounds under Ava's actions.
Now let's go further on the guild's arguments.
We still don't know yet but very little (close to nothing) about Coor. So maybe we must look better. And the question that takes place now is "Who are we?". We are the ones dreamt. But we are aware of the Dreamer now. So what does this means? This can only mean that Ava is dreaming of us but we are dreaming of Ava too. As Ava is in each and everyone of us with her essence. As we are no different from Ava, otherwise how are we something else than non-existence? [Carpa'dosia states that Ava cannot awake from her dream as she realizes that she is herself the dream of another, and her last expressed thought is that this other might be her supposed creation itself...] But what does this mean? This means Coor is our reflection. Our mirrored image. Which is nothing else but the knowledge of self. As Coor manifests himself when Ava is away. When she is veiled. The knowledge of Coor is a glimpse of the veiling Ava. [if you've asked yourselves a little earlier in the text "but isn't Ava veiled to the guild as well?" this is your answer  ] But the knowledge of self is the highest knowledge of all. The knowledge of self is the gate to wisdom itself. Thus accumulating knowledge is shaping and building the mirrored image, searching for wisdom is dreaming of Coor.
Coor is a misunderstood priciple says the guild. And is no wonder if it is like this, because they saw how treacherous the path towards its knowledge can be. What and where would we be now without his manifestation? [I want you to remember again the spirit dragon: such a society cannot be otherwise but oriented towards future - its actions tend towards accomplishing a higher goal, which is to achieve something totally new. They cannot be a "lost paradise" type of society: that's why they believe that the elves are not perceiving Ava in the right way]
Would it be The Tree indeed the Tree of Life without Coor's "intervention"? Because what is this Tree of Life after all? Is the Origin. A "gate" through which we all came. The elves claim that the Tree is hidden now. But the guild had learned to see deeper than the elvish expressed thoughts. The Tree is hidden as it is no more on this plane. The Tree exists on a plane of memories if we can conceive the existance of such a plane. The Tree, being the Origin, exists no more as such. But The Tree exists ideatically. Thus finding The Tree means to fulfil the conditions of its manifestation. Burning the children of Ava. [This is the dangerous and dark side of the "Heresy"]

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Amuwen
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« Reply #2 on: 05 March 2003, 14:01:00 »

Wow! I want to hear more!

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #3 on: 06 March 2003, 15:55:00 »

Yeah, I guess the organization of the idea is now much clearer and easier to understand. I compared the whole idea a bit with the concept of the very first Star Trek movie (now out on DVD Special Edition BTW), the V'yger thing, searching for information of its creator. I guess th spirit dragon idea has a lot of this philosophical background: gathering information, always trying to become more than it is at the moment until it once reaches the point where it tries to become more than a product, but wants to join with the creator (or even topple the creator in a possible Avá hubris scenario).

I hope Koldar can give a comment here soon concerning a possible location in Nybelmar. If you have questions, ideas, proposals, don't hestitate to post them here as well;)

Just continue on with such a text, Smith, looking forward to it:D  


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #4 on: 06 March 2003, 17:05:00 »

*headache*

Hmmm... well, I've read it and must say, interesting idea and concept though I wonder if such a guild/occurence in this form would possibly interfer with history more, but this would mean that the Spirit dragons would be maybe a central role in certain historical events...

Well, instead of just saying it will work or it might not -because I don't know- I'll just summarize some infos about Nybelmar and the socalled Circle so we might see if it is possible to incorporate old and new ideas and my current planning...

The Circle.
The Circle is a mountain range on the northeastern peninsula of Nybelmar, north of the realm of Aca-Santerra. Now I called it Ehebion or Eférán'ypheró, "the burning mountains". In this place once one of the most powerful mage from the War of the Chosen had his lair trying to subue the Nybelmarian part of the "united Island" (Menéchronn(?) see Carpa'dosia) and possibly caused the seperation of Nybelmar from Sarvonia. The Circle was his fortress, his palace and his place for his most powerful spells, however the divine origin of this Chosen remains unclear (Chosen were thought to be 'chosen' by one of the twelve gods)..
Ultimately the races of Nybelmar - esspecially the Korweynites and Kaŭrrhem - defeated the Chosen and brought peace to their lands. But they were betrayed by Kyras the Dark who ruled those humans who once will become the Murmillions, a tribe of humans seeking ultimate powers in the forgotten caverns of the Circle thinking that what once made Menemrónn strong might choose them to be the new Lords of Sorren.

Myth about the Throne of Menemronn.
I have not thought much about this myth anymore but the initial idea was that Menemronn left behind artefacts of great powers that influenced the history of Nybelmar when his existance has only remained as myths in old books.

These artefacts were eight stones, all said to possess great powers. The elves took four because they thought to use them to heal the wounds of the world the War of the Chosen has left behind but they ignored four others they thought possessed by evil spirits. Those become the object of the obsession of Kyras the Dark and the Murmillions and the reason for the ongoing war between the Korweynites and the elves, the followers of light and the Murmillions, followers of the shadows.
In the end all eight stones were "evil", some just more obvious than others and also the four stones, the elves took, were lost, not without causing the Kaŭrrhem empire of the Emerald Woods to fall apart in a civil war that left them weakened inhabiting the woods in several factions.

The Korweynites and also the Santerrans think that the Circle/Ehebion is a dark place and fear the evil that might still lurk in its depths.
For this reason Asthalon the Black, Highking of Aca-Santerra once broke up to find the source of these legends. He became legendary himself and is said to watch over this source of power till eternity as "the Stoneking".


These are just some basic ideas around which I evolve some distinguishable Nybelmarian mythology, maybe it even offers some connection points to your story idea.


Hmmm... maybe I'll add some more thoughts when I have considered things more. Somehow I'd like to intermingle this concept with my ideas (roughly outlined above) but I don't know if you'd approve it as it would change the scope and maybe the direction of what you intended.
It's mainly the 'heresy' that made me think about combining it as much of what the Murmillions and Fireelves do is nothing more...

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« Reply #5 on: 11 March 2003, 11:15:00 »

Ok, I think it might work if we place this guild as part of Murmillions. I searched through the site and I didn't find any references to them though, maybe you can point me to that place... But one of this story's feature was that they were not "evil" from the start, the heresy was built, and was built by the sarvonian branch.
So I don't really know now what to do. Keep the "Circle" as their initial land, or find some other place? I saw there are many blank spots on Nybelmar but such an isolated territory is only in the west.
Hmmm... I am really not decided yet, but I posted this so you will know I am no "dead" ;)
A little help from you would be appreciated (I don't know what are your plans for Nybelmar, that's why I think we must work together on this part of the story)

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« Reply #6 on: 12 March 2003, 14:01:00 »

*knock* *knock* Koooooldar! Your call!


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« Reply #7 on: 13 March 2003, 07:17:00 »

our ISP said goodby yesterday, not sure when the line wíll be back up. Currently at work. I'll give a rought outline about the Murmillions later.  maybe even an entry outline.


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« Reply #8 on: 15 March 2003, 14:58:00 »

Here some places about the myths I described. The Murmillions are currently only a concept in my head. In my eyes they once fell for Coór and now seek power fame and glory to fulfill their dreams. They perceive most outsiders as their enemies or ignorants and are thus not very well-respected by most others.

Starting point to Nybelmarian history.
pub176.ezboard.com/fsanth...=142.topic

Throne of Menemronn draft
pub176.ezboard.com/fsanth...=144.topic

rough timeline
pub176.ezboard.com/fsanth...=145.topic


I have to say it doesn't really make sense to me that the order started in Nybelmar and should travel to Sarvonia to become heretic there. Why should that happen? It's not that Sarvonia knows things Nybelmar has not encountered in its own forms as well...
I want to keep contact and cultural exchange between Nybelmar and Sarvonia rather low (aca-Santerra controls much of the western oceans and they're rather stubborn and self-maintaining not wanting anyone to interfer. Similar example would be Carthage which as well controlled trade by not allowing anyone else to make the trading). They don't should just mix up but have rather different cultures and backgrounds because I want to prevent Nybelmar from becoming just an extension of Sarvonia which would be in my opinion a rather boring thing.
So while a small branch could come to Sarvonia as well I wouldn't think they'd be very big. The belief in the twelve is rather dominant in Santharia, other religions can only be small minorities or cults of the twelve.

So, in Nybelmar this order would have to spread over at least two cultures before it can even reach Sarvonia and anything in the west would also only have sporadic contact with the eastern lands like Korweyn or Aca-Santerra...

Don't know, but I think it can only really work if it's main focus stays on one continent, that's at least my opinion.

Otherwise evil can start out as different world views and end in such a heresy. I was just thinking about something like it that causes a civil war in about the greatest elven empire after the War of the Chosen. The Kaŭrrhem are weakened by this war and end in different factions and tribes. Ifer'hem and Coórhem

M yidea would  be that either the order caused this unrest among the elves or this unrest  also might have sparked the concept of this order among the Murmillions.


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« Reply #9 on: 18 March 2003, 05:09:00 »

I am rethinking a little bit the whole thing to make it fit somehow... I will post as soon as I can.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #10 on: 18 March 2003, 06:32:00 »

Only want to repeat that this is just my opinion about it, when it is not fitting your ideas at all then we might just need to come to the conclusion that Nybelmar is not the best origin for it.

However any further proposal is fine because I'd like it to work. :)  


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« Reply #11 on: 25 March 2003, 19:27:00 »

Ok. I'm back now :)

I have looked through the site (following the links above) and tried to thought of some adaptations to this story so it will fit into Nybelmar. I know that it's not really necessary to place the starting point in this continent but I want to stay true to my inspiration - it was from the older references to Nybelmar that this idea was born. I also think that Nybelmar is the most suited for it and now I couldn't agree more... such a troubled and dark history this continent has...

I suggested earlier to use the western peninsula (aka "the sickle" from what I understand) for the starting point of that guild/cult. The problem is that this location already has a history of its own, even if this history is somehow shrouded in mist. But I see no problem in adaptations. So let's use the Murmillions as the people among which the guild started its work. But I need to be clear on several things.

First, I understand that in "present days" Murmillions are divided in two (at least). A part of them live now under the rule of Santerrans (being already assimilated as the "core" of their army). But there are (or there should be...) still some Murmillions living outside Santerran rule further north in this peninsula's mountains. If this is correct then these later Murmillions would be the main subject of this story.
Second, again in "present days", it is supposed that the former realm of Murmillions lies more or less in ruins. Still, centers of civilized life could exist up there (in the sickle) although no one really went there to see if this is true :)  (nor that someone really wants to do that). So if this is, again, correct, we have a starting ground.
Third, to avoid any other complications (I am thinking about the previous Shadow realms) I think that this guild should be something that started in the "sickle" but not as a "dark masterplan" or as a "state politics" of the free Murmillions.

We can keep the dragon, reviving the description of that white wizard ("Servants of Draco"). So the thing should look like this (on short):

The spirit dragon arrives in the sickle, maybe attracted by the rumours of the imense mystical power and knowledge supposedly lost in those mountains. Thus the guild is born, and their main goal is to gather all knowledge possible, to harness the tracks of the long lost truths of the "sickle". In time they developed the concept of "spirit" thus making a clear difference among Murmillions as a distinct "order" or "guild" or "cult". The concept of "spirit" has driven them on new paths in their search for knowledge - so their methods became more oriented towards the discovery of an inner truth. (let's say that they reversed the logic: one has to be worthy before aquiring a lost secret or item - no use to develop this point now, I am trying to adapt the story now not to tell it :)  ). More further in time, they turned their eyes on the elves (it was quite inevitable if we think about the four light stones), so we may say that the first "branch" of the guild was borned in a first step among the elves of Pallaeion Ulinoth and in a second step in Fullwanooth. The description of Fullwanooth is helping me in this matter as there we can find the most "open" elvish kingdom (hmmm... elvish and not quite elvish isn't it :)  ?). There they came into contact with Carpa'dosia and a new age in the history of this guild began: the spreading (here comes all those ideas with the search for the Tree of Life and the question about Coor).
So in this new form, there isn't necessary for the sarvonian branch to develop the heresy anymore as the heresy can easily be developed in Nybelmar.

There still should be a problem though, I am not yet sure wether to make from this heresy the main doctrine of the guild, as thinking about that dragon this thing seems a little improbable to me. So seeing from this perspective the Fullwanooth branch seems to be too close to the sickle to stray from the "official" thought. But we could solve this (that if we see this as a problem) by placing the heresy on the shoulders of a Korweynian branch (their alliance with the central elvish realms... which place them pretty close to the nightelves). And if this is also not believable then I think we should stay with the sarvonian branch (Strata, through a Santerran branch infestation) in what concerns who developed the heresy.
Anyway, I saw that you were looking for a new "evil source", so if you want we can blame it on the guild and make the heresy their "official" doctrine. (which can be done in two ways also - lol - one way is to limit the developement of the heresy in Fullwanooth, the other way is to make this developement a little longer and to take it through Korweyn or Strata and then back in the "sickle")

Ok, enough for now, as there are already too many ifs and maybes and coulds :)  Your turn now, Koldar...

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« Reply #12 on: 26 March 2003, 04:42:00 »

Hmmmm... sounds good, Fullwannooth might be a good ground to get into contact with elves, however the only preservers of the original Carpadosia in Nybelmar are the Kaŭrrhem. However as the Kaŭr fell into their own spiritual crisis it might be a good connection point to the dark branch of the order, maybe it was drawn to this path by the Coórrhem and Iférrhem? This order could then get a foothold in Korweyn as the trouble among the elves certainly brought also trouble to the Korweynites.

Question: What is the influence of the original order on the free Murmillions?

Hmmm.... I haven't introduced the Chyrakisth, yet. They're some kind of half-orc/half-elf creation from the WoC, but they have no real place (somewhere central Nybelmar) but together with Coórrhem and difficult terrain are the reason the continent is so difficult to travel on foot.

But don't want to confuse you with that detail. Otherwise I think it would fit that way.

A last note of Menemronn. Also not explicitly stated I thought about him as the Chosen of Coór or some rather powerful servant of Coór so he is indeed already a dangerous source of evil even after his death. I thought that he might even corrupt dragons however this was only a thought, it is enough that he corupted the Murmillions.

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« Reply #13 on: 26 March 2003, 13:56:00 »

Short note: I've moved the thread in here, cause I think this is the place where it fits best, now that we're finding a location for the concept in Nybelmar:)  


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« Reply #14 on: 28 March 2003, 22:07:00 »

About the Kayrrhem. It all depends on how much you are willing to accept the influence of the guild in the history of Nybelmar. Initially I thought about them as being part of the recent events. If we make the connection with Kayrrhem and the Great Unrest then this means we have to place this guild (historcally) much more earlier in time then I thought of them. But that is no problem from my part. So let's see how things would look like.

(Basically the guild needs to contact the elvish Carpa'dosia in order to develop that heresy later)
After the War of the Chosen events (the great battles in eferan'yphero), Kyras the Dark remains in the sickle and from what I understand this moment is the birthday of Murmillions. Now, looking at the actions of this Kyras it doesn't seem to me that he could have been capable of many deep thoughts, or to present himself as a "proper" attraction for a spirit dragon. Which is fine. We can let Kyras the Dark to accomplish his own dark deeds in peace without involving the guild. Anyway, as the realm of Murmillions rises, the guild forms among them, quietly, shadowy, step by step... They (the guild) are pursuing their own interests, and "tolerate" the existing murmillion government as this government tolerates them. You said in some point (explaining the history of Nybelmar) that "something evil came from epheran'yphero and destroyed the empire [korweyn] at its peak". Well this "something evil" could be the "sweet tongue" of the guild's preachers.
After the WoC the elves were already separating themselves, so the guild could have seen the oportunity to extend, thus the first branch appeared in Fullwanooth.
So a first "face" of the heresy is born. They make contact with Carpa'dosia (via elvish stories from Kayrrhem) and develop a first interpretation. In this point, they only aknowledge the existance of Ava, they melt Ava's concept into that of "Spirit", and then they start to question Coor's concept (check the second post of this thread). They also aknowledge as a revelation, the identity between Coor and Ava and the fact that Coor is that which prevails, and the rightfull manifestation of what is sacred in our world. But they stop at this point. Anyway, we have now the spark that could have lighted the fire amongst the elves. From the elves, as you said, this "first heresy" spread amongst the Korweynites, bringing the empire to its fall.

We are supposedly at this point in 3600 b.S.

Now here comes a problem. There are aproximately 2000 years until the next great war and defeat of the Murmillions. 2000 years in which the new Korweyn arises and also in which Santerrans establish their kingdom on land aswell. And I can't think of what the guild has done in all this time. The elves are scattered, the old Korweyn lies in ruin. They have no more knowledge to gather, no more purpose to achieve... Hmmm... Only if we try this. After seeing the elves spilling blood of their own kind, after seeing the great empire succumbed, they realized that it was something wrong with their interpretation. That the path that they were following was not really the right one (meaning was not really what they searched for). So we must have 2000 years of disappearance, years in which the guild fell like the great empire did. Disappointed with the outcome the dragon could have decided to move into an elf spirit (to understand what went wrong). But that meant that the elf became the leader of the guild without passing all the circles of initiation, which caused a great deal of unrest among the followers. Eventually, the dragon "retires" in the sickle with only a small circle of people that he thought to be worthy, and destroys the guild as it was, by leaving it without a real leader and purpose. This can be quite nice actually as we can have two versions of the guild in these times... :)  Anyway, what is essential is that they restrained their activities in the sickle for these 2000 years - the "true" guild being now more interested in introspection and meditation than in interpreting the universal thoughts.

Then came 1649 b.S. - The Year of Darkness. The Murmillions are conquered and made part of Aca-Santerra. (well, still some of them continued to live in the sickle, as Santerrans showed no interest in making it their territory - those "free murmillions") This event ended the existance of the "false" guild, but the "true" one, the small circle of people, remained in the sickle among the free Murmillions.

From now on it is our choice to pick a historical date when a new revelation takes place in the guild: the search for the Tree of Life (and the complete "heresy" - the one that I originally proposed). From that date, a second "spreading" began, the years of introspection and meditation are over, the "golden days" of gathering and harnessing knowledge came back for the guild.
Again, this part is quite foggy. I haven't guessed anything about your intentions in this period of time. I picked up something though: you refer to a new shadow rising in the west (1000 a.S)... can this shadow be connected with this story???
Anyway, first tell me what do you think about these "interferences"...

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