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Koldar Mondrakken
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« on: 27 July 2003, 10:17:00 »

So I guess here one can slice away on what is thought up in the other place. :)  


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #1 on: 02 August 2003, 15:32:00 »

ok, a first thing.

Quote:
5500-5300 b.S. The break between humans and Elves
The once united elves of the emerald woods split up into various tribes. In the civil war several human tribes are involved leading to a growing tension between the two races. The rivers seperating the Emerald Woods turn into the borders of now opposing Elven tribes. The capital of the once proud Elven kingdom that ruled the woods becomes a myths hidden deep within the forests defended by bow and magic against all unwelcomed visitors.


I think that maybe we can delay this a little as to fit with the war between Korweyn and the Shadow and then with the Dark Age. As if it is to be a real Dark Age of Nybelmar it would be more fitting if the elves got their problems (the civil war and the new elven tribes) during the same age. We already started to talk about such possible adjustments in the Arkhaeon entry (when I mentioned Fullwanooth in an earlier period)

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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #2 on: 03 August 2003, 03:20:00 »

This morning I started to write on the places entry for Murmillions so I think there should be some things to clarify (as the end of such an entry must contain a historical timeline of the region, so I guess here I should flesh out everything about this subject)

1. First we have aprox 4k years from the defeat of Menemronn to the rise of Korweyn.
So I think that Murmillions didn't actually formed their kingdom much earlier than Korweyn. Thus the things in this period should look like this:

- Kyras the Dark betrays the alliance and goes back in the sickle with those that fell under Menemronn's influence (elves and humans alike, as it is already stated in the overview of the tribe entry).
- A dinasty is formed and Murmillions are governed by a clan-type system (every faction keeping pretty much for themselves)
- In some point fights broke out among the clans so we would have also a few elven lords (and this could make this long period of "building" more fit - as the elves live longer)
- Also the new social class of commoners it is formed (mainly from various nomadic tribes that happen to wonder through that "accursed" place and fell under the influnence and rule of the Lords of the Sickle - as the descendants of Kyras' army were calling themselves)
- And also it is supposed that some sort of interbreeding between humans and elves happen in this time, as now Murmillions are renowned for being able to outlive a normal human. The elves slowly but surely dissappear leaving the Sickle for humans.

2. We have the rise of Korweyn (around 5300 b.S.).
The Korweynites make the first move against Murmillions, as they were continuing to see them as a source of evil that must be eradicated. So they take advantage from Murmillion's clan fightings and slowly move their armies east of Jerrah, starting to build small outposts in the Moon Hills, trying to subdue the commoners and to get a strong foothold from which they could carry the battle further into the Burning Mountains.
Facing this threat, Murmillions realize that they must cease the fightings if they are to survive and carry on the legacy of Menemronn, thus the Second Shadow Realm is formed (with the government type that I have described in the entries until now). Actually this name was given by the Korweynites (as they refer to Murmillions as a "Second Shadow" before they managed to organize in a state - instead Murmillions were initially calling their Kingdom just "The Shadow Realm".
The Korweynite armies are pushed back west of Jerrah and their outposts are leveled to the ground (though some ruins can still be found in the Moon Hills)

3. The continuos war
From this point on the hostilities become a continuous, tiring and in some points senseless war between the two Kingdoms, the main battlefield being the regions east and west of Jerrah.
As opposed to Korweyn, Murmillions do not wage a war of conquest, but one that resembles to a barbaric type: they usually raid and pillage (burning villages, destroying castles, looting and taking numerous civilian prisoners to work at their new built mountain fortresses) and after that they retreat back in their territories.
Some of the Korweyn emperors are even forced to pay tribute to Murmillions (construction materials and cultural artifacts, mainly) for keeping them out of the Empire, in the times when peace was required for rebuilding the armies.
This whole situation changed when King Sylas of Murmillions decided to eradicate the Empire from the face of Caelereth => the end of Korweyn, the treaty between the Shadow and Anis-Anpagan (parting their spheres of influence), the beginning of the Dark Age.

4. Dark Age
The kingdom of Murmillions is at its peak now as the territories they control stretch so far as to the former Korweyn capitol. The capitol of their kingdom itself is also moved from the fortress-city of Dasans to the more luxuriant Lhindal.
A new system of vassalities is imposed (and this is actually a proof for Murmillions' inability or unwillingness to control such a large territory) and slowly their influence weakens, being taken over by local opportunistic lords. Still a lot of tribute is "sucked" out of the Korweyn lands.

5. The new Korweyn arises and Murmillions do very little to prevent the unification of the provinces into the new Empire, being again busy with various internal intrigues and fights for power. Aca-Santerra is formed, south of the Moon Hills and first Murmillions are seeing them as just another riches-hungry lords and thus allow them to settle in the provinces south of Moon Hills. Soon they proove to be wrong as Santerrans were actually more than just "administrators" so the Year of Darkness began and with it the fall of the Second Shadow Realm.

6. there are some things further more than need to be discussed. The Santerran Murmillions live as an autonomous region inside Aca-Santerra now, and they are attracted in the new war against Korweyn (this time fough under Santerran banners). The free Murmillions though keep to themselves (and here we should decide wether Santerrans asked them for an alliance and they refused or they just simply kept out of the way)

7. what is now for us the "future" (although for sarvonia is still "past"). What happens with the free Murmillions then? Do they take part in the Nybelmar-Sarvonian wars? Are they recognized as a new kingdom by the other Nybelmarian nations? (as because of the increasing Arkhaeon influence after the Year of Darkness I am thinking that towards 1600 a.S. they become a little less reclusive, starting to show up again, although apparently a lot more peacefully this time...

Edited by: Smith in Exile at: 8/2/03 11:23
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #3 on: 03 August 2003, 05:42:00 »

I'll look into your questions, I guess the general timing might still need some tweaking but I thought about a general approach to the timeline.
To not get too confused we should maybe write the history first from a Korweynite perspective, then add the Murmillion and Kaýrrhem perspective that'll add different views but also reactions to the first timeline.

The idea is to form a skeleton by writing the history of the most dominant tribe in eastern Nybelmar and use it as a basis to interweave the actions and reactions by the other tribes.

I've written down a sketch till the decline of the first empire without dates. What I think necessary is to make the fall of Menemronn be followed by another age that is still clouded  in myths where the Ancestors of the Korweynites and Murmillions grew and settled in their corelands.

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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #4 on: 03 August 2003, 14:33:00 »

yes, that sounds good, I'll wait to look into it then.

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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #5 on: 07 August 2003, 18:15:00 »

that sounds excellent (the edited history that is) ;)

though there are a few changes made and the most important is that Korweyn didn't died in the battle against Menemronn...

anyway, everything sounds good and the only adjustment to be made would be with Anis-Anpagan (I'd say to move them before Makéln, to give them a little time to become a kingdom before the fall of the Empire)

PS
That also means that Anis-Anpagan didn't actually "imported" the Korweynites elements ("essences") in the dark age but way before, actually it was in their culture since Korweynites were ruling their lands... [this is for the cosmology entry]

PS2:
When you finish the timeline for Tiara I'd say we need to add two more battles of some kind. Because I am thinking that Murmillions would send an army to prevent the new union of Korweynite provinces and thus this army is defeated. Then we need a stalemate between these two (so perhaps Korweynites cross the Jerrah, lay siege to the closest fortress and fail?) and maybe a treaty (because Murmillions had little to do with the second Empire on their own, but only under Santerran banners)

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #6 on: 08 August 2003, 02:21:00 »

OOps, Kortweyn is dead? I'll correct that, it's his closest relative then. To make things more confusing there'll be several Korweyns but for now the first one died against Menemronn.

Idea was that Anis Anpagan became an kingdom on its own when a Korweynite prince fled and lead a revolt. Maybe we can make it that Anis Anpagan was a semi-autonomy realm before for some time and slowly the empire loses grip on it so they'll be the first to uprise and declare themselves independant.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #7 on: 08 August 2003, 07:13:00 »

I put in a little play on the name "Murmillion" I hope it is okay. It might be good if the Murmillions also have an own name. The Korweynite one is not very nice afterall.

In fact what means "bandit" for Korweynites means just "Men of the valleys" which suggests that the Santerrans are more influenced by Korweyn than they'd admit. ;)  


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
Weakness is strength. Hope is life.

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 8/7/03 15:14
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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #8 on: 08 August 2003, 14:34:00 »

well, as I am writing now on the places entry I was kinda forced into looking for a name (a local one). So I said that Murmillions are calling their Kingdom by the name of their peninsula: Ehebion, the Kingdom of Ehebion.
They would see themselves as Lords of the Sickle - that being also a clue about how high they think of themselves (as they are not belonging to a the same "nation" as the commoners) or something.
Here is how I started that entry:

"Ehebion, The Shadow Realm

Overview
"The Shadow" is one of the most mystical places on the continent of Nybelmar. Called "Kingdom of Ehebion" by its inhabitants (and often, "The Shadow Realm" - as a reaction to the Korweynite lore), "The Second Shadow" by Korweynites, or simply "Murmillion lands" by Santerrans, this region has always been more or less involved in all the important events of the most troubled history of the eastern part of this continent. South of the burned fields of Pallaeion Ulinoth, west of the Fallaenion Gaeldorioth's lush forests and north-west of the beautifull Jerrah river we find the easternmost tip of Nybelmar: the Ehebion peninsula. This seemingly unnatural range of volcanic mountains ("Epheran'yphero", or "The Burning Mountains"), continuing inland with the soft hills named "Oberion Thaleseth" (or "Moon Hills"), hosts the mysterious Murmillions, the ones that forged one of the longest lasting Kingdoms in all Caelereth."

I hope is ok.

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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #9 on: 08 August 2003, 15:12:00 »

Hmmm... actually what I would really like to "see" is a Murmillion meeting a Chyrakisth. Now if it is normal for a Korweynite to name them "bandits" it is also normal to name the others, "demons". So imagine the demon meeting the bandit: Murmillions would surely despise the Chyrakisth and consider them a little more than beasts, a little less than men - apes. But think about the wonder and the sudden mindblow when they would find out that these "apes" are revering their forefather, Menmeronn :D  lol (maybe we make things somehow as to allow them to meet some time...)

About Anpagan...

if they are a separate nation from a start and then they are conquered by Korweyn (as it is now in the timeline) then we have a lot of reasons for hatred and an impossibility that these two would ever live in peace under the same banner. If we make them autonomous region, gaining their independence gradually, that also leaves room for a later re-assimilation.
So let's make it like this:

-loose tribes settle in the peninsula and form some small city-states. Korweynites have a very large influence over them and thus inevitably (despite the treaty) they are included in the Empire. They will be always Pagans though (as this would be also the name that will stick unto them), never fully adhering to the whole Korweynite concept. One of the Korweynite royalties feels somehow attracted to these odd people and (forced by some events also - accusations etc...) decides to lead them to "freedom". So he becomes their prophet, setting them on a path of independence. Though different, they will always live in the Korweynite shadow.
All in all, I am thinking to make them quite atheistic, a secular culture (that's why I mentioned the fact that they taken the Korweynite elements/essences and strip them of the religious content), and this would leave some room for a kind of "magic academy" for Nybelmar, or (if not this) maybe some alchemy schools etc.

Their "glory" period would be during the dark ages, when somehow they persuaded Murmillions into a treaty to split the southern world in two parts, two spheres of influence (kinda like the portuguese and spaniards did). But while Murmillions had quite a strong grip on the eastern former Korweyn, Anpagan never managed to fully subdue their regions (well, you know how they say... "no one is a prophet in his own country")
Perhaps if we want to make them a little more important than this (historically) we may device some stories between Anpagan and Zhun, otherwise, during the second Empire they mostly would keep for themselves, trying to be "friendly" with the Empire on the main land, and stirring up troubles in Kaleman (piracy etc., competing with Santerran pirates and so on...)


PS: (sorry for these PS but there are many different things to say...)

the Cities for Murmillion entry:
Dasans (in Ehebion) - done
Lhindal (in Moon Hills, close to Ehebion) - done
Kelad (I need a third town, somehow placed near the Jerrah, I was thinking to describe a new one, but then you mentioned this Kelad, overruned and transformed in a base of operation, perhaps this city could stay theirs) - waiting...

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #10 on: 09 August 2003, 10:08:00 »

Proposal: How about "the Ebin" for the Murmillions? Short form of Ehebion, but might have also some meaning to them.

Btw: You mix up east and west. When it is west of everything how can it be the easternmost part? :)  I somehow do the same error all the time.

I also thought that the Murmillions might at some point hire the Chyrakisth as mercenaries, also as they're a cross of orcs and elves they'll be a little more than apes. ;)
The Chyrakisth should be the menace to central Nybelmar making it impossible to cross Nybelmar by foot (only the Plaindwarves do so in heavily guarded caravans).


About Anis-Anpagan:
The pagans would be partly subdued by force, partly the empire will just take them over but they'll be still treated as second class citizens.
I thought that maybe the prince was governor of the parts now known Anis Anpagan and upon the danger of losing his head puts himself in front of a liberation army to escape that fate and govern on his own. This would also explain why Anis Anpagan would expand its influence onto Korweynite lands after the fall. Their kings have royal blood and thus would claim to have a right to rule over the Korweynites.

All in all the Murmillions wouldn't have too much problems to accept a treaty as the guys of Anis Anpagan are the strongest competitor after the Korweynites anf could  cause lots of trouble if ignored.

We can make Anis Anpagan control all the trade between Zhun, Kaleman and anything east till the new empire is reestablished and begins building a warfleet on its own and Aca-Santerra is expanding its own influence as well by opening the tradelanes to Santharia. (I have to rewrite that part as well, guess the Crimson Islands will be more of a demilitarized zone where every major seapower has a fleet just to insure a say in the trade with Santharia, and hindering each other and the trade that way)

Kelad as a Murmillion city is okay but it should be destroyed/abandoned lateron as the Santerran expand pretty much along the coast and Jerrah at first.


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #11 on: 09 August 2003, 15:54:00 »

Kelad:
why should it be destroyed? as Murmillions colonize the city making it their own after the Year of Darkness Kelad just passes under Santerran rule (as it is controlled by Santerran Murmillions). Anyway, I can think of another city, somewhere near the Jerrah, closer to the elves' forest, maybe I'll name it Daekas... (it needs to be a border fortress and a commercial town - mostly wineries :) )

Name:
Hmmm, I have to think a little about "ebin" I doesn't really fits with the other names, but we should keep "Murmillions" as already I only mentioned them with this name. So Murmillions may have a slightly different meaning for them too: still related with hiding places, or mountain dwellers (the Korweynites just add the moral sentence over the name, and Santerrans the landscape description)

East/West:
Aren't you making the confusion right now, lol? Isn't Aca-Santerra, Ehebion all that, in the EAST??? And Zhun, Orcal all that, in the WEST???

Anis-Anpagan:
yep, that sounds good ;)

The Meeting:
(with Chyrakisth) well, that needs to be a little dramatic I'd say, thus maybe we can place it after the Year of Darkness ( ? )

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #12 on: 10 August 2003, 00:05:00 »

It is that Kelád as a border forstress would be located west of the Jerrah, I didn't expect any major settlements  there.

I would give the Murmillion still a unique name. Three meanings for one word is just too much when we assume that teh Korweynites did not derive it from Murmillion sources but really just wanted to insult them by calling them bandits. As the influence of the Murmillions will cease after the Year of Darkness it would sound natural that the name Mumrillion would be used among the Santerrans and Korweynites and thus be more known than their own. An example would be "Deutschland", many countries that once belonged to the Roman empire use the term "Alemannia" in one form or another though the Alemannen where only one Germanic tribe.


East west:

Quote:
South of the burned fields of Pallaeion Ulinoth, west of the Fallaenion Gaeldorioth's lush forests and north-west of the beautifull Jerrah river we find the easternmost tip of Nybelmar


To put it into "geographic" terms. Right is east on a map, left is west, and when Ehebion is west of the Emerald forests and northwest of the Jerrah it cannot be eastern from both. ;)



Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #13 on: 10 August 2003, 05:37:00 »

About Menemronn: What do the Murmillions think about him? AS I thought it Kyras betrayed Korweyn and followed the "dark" path but that does not make him an ally of Menemronn, they are still enemies. Kyras just thought to exploit what was left of Menemronn's powers.
I don't know where you make reference to that myth (I couldn't find it) but can you clear that up?

The Murmillions would see Menemronn still as some evil guy or at least as someone who failed in a certain aspect (where Kyras succeeded), Kyras would do everything to look good afterall and other than Menemronn Kyras was a Murmillion, or one of their ancestors. So wouldn't they focus more on Kyras and see him as a prophet than bother about Menemronn?

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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #14 on: 10 August 2003, 19:01:00 »

East/West
OOOOOOOPS.... lol, yeah: my fault... my fault :D

Name
Ok, that explanation sounds fair, so I guess we could mention an "early" Murmillion name (I'll squeeze my brains out to get one :) )

Menemronn.
Hmmm... I thought it a little different from Murmillion's perspective. It is true that their obsession with Menemronn took a higher level after the Year of Darkness when Arkhaeon gained a lot of influence among the Free Murmillions. The Santerran ones still don't pay him too much "respect" (other than it was before, I mean)
But, nevertheless they aknowledge him as a forefather, the one that found the right path. Yet they do not know "what" and "how" is that path. Arkhaeon brought something new, when they suggested that he was the Chosen of Coor, but Coor has no meaning for Santerran Murmillions.
Kyras didn't thought about Menemronn as an enemy after his "betrayal", but rather he reached the conclusion that the whole war was wrong and that Menemronn was misunderstood. Thus he rallied all those that still believed in him and formed what later was to be called Kingdom of Ehebion. He would have tried to persuade Korweynites too, but they were too self-righteous for that - and from here we have a perfect reason for all that long long time of war between them (Korweynites think about Murmillions as heretics and fallen, but Murmillions think about Korweynites in the same way)

The entry on Mari has some references to this, and also the Arkhaeon entry (towards the end). It's a little strange as they generally don't think about him as a true teacher but rather they see him as an ideal (Menemronn was the only one who managed to fulfill his destiny and thus to leave the World of Exile... but he didn't teach anyone how to do that)

I'll try to make a synthesis on all the things about Menemronn and perhaps we can link them all together into a people entry

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