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Author Topic: proposed ideas for timeline  (Read 2523 times)
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Smith in Exile
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« on: 13 December 2003, 19:46:00 »

I see a few problems with Korweynites holding the Ferrath/Crimson Islands when the first stratanian ships arrive there. I mean at least it's about me - I cannot understand how that would be possible. Why would the Korweynites go through such incoveniences (as to be forced to sail right through Santerran territories to get to those "rocks") for, let's say, just a principle? So, trying to understand this situation I come up with some ideas.

(first I should mention that I didn't knew about this cataclysm plan - that severed the contacts between these two continents - making necessary actually a second discovery of Nybelmar)

ok.

- We have the old Korweyn Empire crushed by Murmillions (the Ehebion Kingdom).
- Then we have the Second Empire rising while the Ehebion Kingdom will eventually be shattered during the Year of Darkness by the Santerrans.
- So we are left with two new major powers. And here are the ideas.

- War breaks out between Aca-Santerra and Korweyn after the Year of Darkness. The Korweynites follow their (now natural) expansionistic tendencies, while the Santerrans are still trying to establish their dominance over the east coast. After the Year of Darkness they make a kind of a truce/agreement with the Moon Hills Murmillions, trading their autonomy in exchange of some taxes and a strong garrison permanently stationed in Lhindal (to contain any possible threat from the Sickle - and actually to prevent Murmillions in joining forces again). So we can't talk yet of a Murmillion "full loyalty" to the Santerran King (and also about Murmillions forming the core of the Santerran army). The Korweynites take advantage of this situation and decide to strike. As a result they should conquer the Moon Hills and maybe even the territories up to Loreney (making them truly in this moment by far the largest Empire that Nybelmar has ever seen). Santerrans are contained on the coast in the cities beyond the mountains (Artakar and Kinnia) and probably Altyr. Korweynites own the rest => expansion to the Ferrath/Crimson Islands seems perfectly logical now. Also, as I understand that the Sickle is "off-limits", meaning that they should stay isolated, we could imagine of course a failed attempt to break the "Gates of Ehebion" by the Korweynites (probably told even in a "mysterious" way, something like a whole army disappearing into the Burning Mountains of the peninsula, never to be heard of again). Hmmm... and this situation (the conquest of the Moon Hills) would also be a nice and fair revenge for the Korweynites :)
Things begin to change though while the stratanian ships are heading this way. So I'm thinking that a growing resistance movement of Murmillions combined with the Santerrans relentless attempts to regain their territories (well, Murmillions are kinda "nuts" anyway, and Santerrans have the advantage of the sea) would eventually result in Korweynites withdrawing from these lands. This would explain perfectly why Murmillions accepted the Santerran domination (it's like an alliance actually), why the Santerrans became so restrictive with their seas, or why would they think of accepting a trade agreement with a distant nation like Varcopas.

ok. Now if this cataclysm strikes the Ferrath Islands and if the Sarvonians "forget" about Nybelmar once more I think that a good idea would be that the second discovery is not actually made by sarvonians but by Nybelmarians (probably around 1200-1400 a.S.). That is if you think of such a "second discovery" - but if you don't it could be a problem for me, a big one, because you see, while working on the Nepris game I assumed that there are some contacts (although rare) between these two continents... :S

PS: I might have some more ideas about some of the details of that "second discovery" (probably for another people entry or maybe even a library story if I feel brave enough lol) but I need to know a few more things first.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #1 on: 14 December 2003, 09:07:00 »

The whole thing about the cataclysm is simply that otherwise Nybelmar and Sarvonia would have  contact for more than a millenia which would mean that these tradelanes would be too busy and the uniqueness will be lost. I want to be Sarvonia/Nybelmar (depends on the perspective to be like China to the Europeans. When they've a constant connection over 1000 years that is not possible.

So the cataclysm would mark the break down of the Stratanian wealth (like Carthage controlling secret sealanes beyond the strait of Gibraltar)

The deal is. You cannot sail all the way to Nybelmar safely without a resupply stop somewhere in this vast ocean so the Ferrath islands will be vital for keeping contact.

Otherwise I see not much problem with the Korweynites controlling the islands first as well. For some reason they discovered it first or built a settlement there and thus they too control of the islands. Without sattelites and radar you simply cannot control the ocean as much as the Santerrans want. Spain dominated the Atlantic for centuries but that didn't mean they could prevent French, Dutch and English taking their share in Caribbean either.

It won't be before the contact of the Stratanians before the Santerrans will realize that the Korweynites don't own a rock there but a gateway to a new world and it will be from there on that Santerrans will get restrictive with ships sailing through their waters and will try to take the Ferrath islands from Korweyn.

However but what are you eager to do when you mess with the strongest neighbor of yours. You might be willing for a compromise (that is also where suddenly Anis Anpagan might show up) in that you want your share of control over the place and shipping rights.

Korweyn couldn't hold the islands against the Santerran fleet. On the other hand a war could end fatal for Santerra because it is definetely outnumbered by the Korweynites when those are willing to take casualties.

The Santerran claim to restrict other ships to enter their waters is as much based on their egomanic worldview as on vital economic gains. Who is more in control? The one who just sells goods to foreigners or the one who brings them straight to their harbours? They can better control the markets that way


So I don't see much of a problem with the Korweynites discovering or settling on a secluded island before the Santerrans do (the Europeans did this all the time, e.g. the Falkland war was a last aftermath of an island discovered by Spain but lateron populated by English and England had definetely the more inconvenient position to conrol the island than Spain which had colonies in South America.


Not sure about the events in Nybelmar atm, I don't want the occupied Murmillions to like the Santerrans at all. Mutual acceptance should be all meaning that the Santerrans are somewhat troubled on the continent. The Korweynites also should dominate too much, in fact this would drain their thirst for expansion than increase it. Even a superpower can invest a limited amount of resources to their interest and the greater the empire the more of these resources are taken for maintaining control over what is already conquered. Even the Mongol empire corroded quickly and ended up in dozens of smaller realms because of that.


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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #2 on: 14 December 2003, 12:46:00 »

Don't you think, the Crimson islands are a bit too far in the north to be a safe habour on the way to Nybelmar? I think the distance to the outermost islands of the territory of the Santerrans is not bigger than to the crimsons islands

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« Reply #3 on: 14 December 2003, 14:24:00 »

When you refer to the world map there are indeed two things different from what it is supposed to. The ocean is meant to be several times bigger, more like the eastern one and the islands are more on a line between Strata and Altyr than in that bay off the east coast of Nybelmar. You'll see that the Nybelmar maps don't show any positions of them. In that way I assume the world map must be seen as very medieval. No concepts about distance calculations brought the proportions out of hand.

Hmmm... thinking about it I even wanted Nybelmar's west coast to nearly touch the Etherial void so nearly touching the end of the world like Aeruilin.
R'unor should be more on a position between Akdor and Nybelmar as well and not as close to Santharia I guess.


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« Reply #4 on: 15 December 2003, 20:09:00 »

Hmmm... ok, if you say that the Santerrans are not bothered by Korweynite ships sailing through their waters...

I also agree with this discontinuous contact between Nybelmar and Sarvonia (it needs a bit more detailing though - this as a "to do" thingie :) )

About Murmillions vs Santerrans I guess we will agree on a final point of view when we'll get there with the timeline.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #5 on: 15 December 2003, 20:24:00 »

They are bothered but:
-You cannot control the oceans without satellite surveillance, thus finding a ship is more luck than planning.=> Korweynite ships can sail through the oceans and the Santerrans wouldn't necessarily sight them.
-You don't mess with guys without reason when they can kick in your front door.
-Via Kaleman the Korweynites would've a place to travel to the open sea without getting into contact with Santerran waters at all and take a longer route. The Wernam archipelago (whose most eastern spot are the Ferrath islands)
extends far to the south west south of Kaleman so Korweyn (and Anis Anpagan in fact) can use islands there for their own endevours to restrict Santerran sea supremacy to the northern half of the ocean(where R'unor would have a say in matters as well)
-Santerran waters is not just anything between their islands but they claim far more, however on this free ocean you can evade contact to some degree.


It would be an entirely different thing when these ships would like to use Santerran harbours and I think that's what merchantman would do. Thus the Santerran limitation of the seas has esspecially economic impact.


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« Reply #6 on: 16 December 2003, 06:10:00 »

Well, I see, I looked at the world map...do we have somewhere a map which looks like you have described it?
I wouldn't put Nybelmar as close to the void as Aeruillin, just nearly, allow a coast there, so that one adventurer can manage (somewhen in the future?) to sail around Nybelmar, he may sail very close to the void however, with strange phenomens.....or at one point the void is really very near, so that the passage is not given all time...

..or just a piece of land, a peninsula is reaching in the void - and shipping around it is dangerous and not always possible - then you can build a canal......lol

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« Reply #7 on: 16 December 2003, 07:23:00 »

Sadly not though it seems it would be necessary esspecially as the Wernam islands need a place as well. However from what I imagine I think Varcopas and Strata would have similar journeys to the Ferrath islands. Do they oppose each otzher or work together? e.g. in the Alliance of the Red?


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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #8 on: 16 December 2003, 11:19:00 »

aaaah... yes, with this alternate route (via Wernam archipelago) everything seems in order. The route is longer though safer - with all the politics implied. Cool.

Though we need to mention this somewhere :S - as for instance I didn't knew about this route.

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