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Author Topic: Anpagan vs Krath  (Read 7445 times)
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Smith in Exile
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« on: 18 June 2004, 06:33:00 »

So, Coren, here we should coordinate the thing. Of course, anyone else is welcomed with suggestions.

First, we have the Year of Darkness 1650-1649 as the main event. So everything we do must end with this.

The Anpagan Republican wars are a collection of events representing a century of turmoil for their Kingdom. After the Year of Darkness the things settle as they become a republic. During this century there are various Anpagan factions fighting each other for various reasons :)  :

1. the royalists:
- the Korweynite dynasty (following Narve the Wise, the Anpagan founder - related to Finnas, the last Korweynite emperor killed in the battle for Kormendale)
- the Benedictus House, Anpagan nobles claiming the throne against the Korweynites.

2. the mages:
- first they support the Korweynite dynasty.
when the Daedhirians come on the scene (1689, after Armand Da'Ran's death) they will split up in:
- very few loyal to the Korweynites
- daedhirians loyal to Benedictus
- the rest of them (majority) supporting the republicans.

3. the republicans:
- in the beginning a loose collection of rogues and unhappy peasants; in time all these discontent factions will unite under the aim for a new govt system - the republic. They will win these wars, obviously.

4. the theocrats:
- Aseya clerics, taking advantage of the turmoil they will try to impose a theocratic regime for a few years (around 1700) - claiming that they are ressurecting the glory of the first Korweyn. They will fall in a huge city riot.

------

Ok, now knowing all these we should work things out.

First I don't see the Krath-Anpagan issues as a full scale war. Actually the greatest, baddest, meanest wars should be the three Shadow Wars (first Menemronn, second Ehebion-Korweyn, third to be discussed), so I don't really agree with your proposal of global war in the west (involving even the elves of Sarthera). It would only make the Shadow Wars look like a bunch of violent displays on a violent continent.

So, instead of a full-scale war we should have various bickerings.

- the Anpagans make a first contact with Krath, via trade ships sailing on the shoreline till they reach Zhun.

- seeing the great trade opportunities they start small trade colonies in the area.

- some Krath emperors, could not see this with good eyes (for one reason or another) => they try to sabotage these colonies.

- a battle could be possible here.

- with Anpagan in such a turmoil, the Krath might receive a help request from one of the royalist factions => they start to move their troops (probably those nomads) to Anpagan lands.
=> another battle

(- we should probably leave the Kassites out of this - their interests would be different.)

- ... and so on. The thing is that neither Anpagan neither Krath will really get a hold on the territories south of Banderrath. About Daedhirians, they are not a nation but just a faction inside Anpagan. So yes, they could try a deal with Krath, probably ending up in being suspected of some influence in their Breaking.

I don't know yet, it's your turn now anyway.

PS: 4k years of Krath rule over Zhun??? Man, that's a lot of time lol. You should consider restraining that. Actually I was thinking that the actual cities of Zhun are the Anpagan colonies, where the colonists have mixed up with the local population into a new "tribe".


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #1 on: 18 June 2004, 08:09:00 »

Concerning the Kassites, I agree. The only reason why the second Empire comes into being at all is because the loyality of the Kassites is close to irrational. They wouldn't change their allegiance to the old empire even in its demise and their main drive during the dark ages will be to escape persecution and survive.

Some Kassites might join the Kraths as mercenaries (black sheep so to speak) but the rest would maintain a scattered and low profile during this age. They won't be well-liked by many.

As Smith put it, it should be more a series of colonial wars. not fullscale wars with the goal of occupying someone's homeland. This can be as bloody but there's little reason for both sides to try to slug it out when both are at the strongest. Let them get in conflict over these formerly Korweynite territories.

The thirty year war against Orcal should be a time when Krath begins to stumble, after 30 years  both sides would be surely close to bankrupt, only that orcs don't necessarily care so much.;)  This could be then the time when Anpagan incites rebellions in Zhun and expands its power in that respect. First liberators of Krathian overlords, soon a hated colonial empire themselves. The Anpagan growth in Zhun should be very subtle, first forcing a peace on Krath due to their trouble, then dominating trade and at latest demanding more and more privileges in the trade cities till they have quasi-control over certain Zhunite cities.

It would be good to consider factors that would accelerate the Krathian decline militarily and otherwise, we have such examples in our history as well: The fall of Rome as well as 19th century China. Both were at one point so severly weakened that the once splendid civilizations fell into disarray.

If the Zhun region is an annexed part of the empire we need to consider what these people are like as well and why they preserved their identity in that they overthrew Krath when they could.


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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #2 on: 18 June 2004, 10:34:00 »

I agree. Sounds good. My only problem is with Zhun. It's not actually a forced Krath "rule". The cities of Zhun are quite independent in their actions, and ironically they live a wealthy, confortable life due to all the trade going on there. It's not likely that the patrons of the city would want to be liberated from Krath rule (Krath grants all the security and political force the cities need for trade), so perhaps using their Republican Wars to inspire the Zhuns (the commoners) would be a better idea.

Although in the High Council there are only a few (one, two, three?) representatives from Zhun - because membership in the HC is parallel to the population of the area - the Zhuns actually dominate a good portion of the finance assembly; especially the trade blocks.

And if Zhunith territory was added around 4000b.S then...

Koldar, do we really have to have a tropical climate in the entire southern peninsula? Can't we just restrain it to the southernmost parts? Also can the Zhunith territory have sort of a Mediterrenean climate?

Smith, when should be the first contact with Krath? Also what were the city states doing before that, trading agricultural goods (since this is the only area in Krath suitable to growing grain) among themselves?

I also need some battles to keep the Krath army strong - doesn't have to be big ones, just continual. This would then be another reason of the division between the HC, the Purists think the empire acts far more aggressively than it should.

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« Reply #3 on: 18 June 2004, 15:23:00 »

For the Zhunites to be inspired the Krathian empire must be in bad shape in the first place. That the Anpagans exploit such a weakness would be a different factor.


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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #4 on: 18 June 2004, 18:01:00 »

Ok, now one thing that Coren mentioned could bring more light into this matter: the Krath needs those territories because that's a very good place for extended farming.

So how about this:

- around 4000 bS the Krath start to colonize the Zhunite area setting up some farmlands there. No major settlements, just a rural area used for agriculture. With the Krath being so "earth" oriented they will also have little interest in setting up ports -> rivers are far more appealing for them, so these small settlements cannot be considered the "ancestors" of later Zhunite cities.

- things change a bit around 3000 bS when some important resource deposits are found in the mountains (which are unnamed btw). I'm thinking about precious stones mainly. => Some more "advanced" settlements appear in the area - staging points for the products brought from the mining operations in the mountains. They could also contact the Gorbas in this era too => they will integrate them in their system (sending them wherever they are needed as workforce).

- now comes the first contact with Anpagan. Let's pick a date: how's 2543 bS sounds? :)  Of course, this contact will happen via Anpagan galleys reaching the Zhunite shores. The Seawyrms are still a major issue, yet by a very lenghty travel along the shores the contact is still possible. Also it's important to notice that this first contact is made under friendly circumstances - after such a lenghty travel the Anpagans would be thrilled to find out a good trading partener. What would the Anpagans like? The precious stones of course, probably some sort of spice found in that area as well (I don't know, it's your area, Coren, let your imagination fly :) , maybe some tree bark or something). Later on (closely to the Year of Darkness) when they bring their Pacifier Galleys they will probably try to "import" some Gorbas as well, even orcs if the Krath will manage to enslave some (the thing is that Gorbas are considered orcs too by Anpagans, even if they are not). What the Krath would like from Anpagans? Well, knowing them I bet that the Anpagan enhanced tobaccoes and perfumes would make a real blast among the Krath nobility. They also have some very quality fabrics too :)  (a very precious thing in Middle Ages btw) and they can always sell "technology" - like those golems, but that can happen only 20 years before the Year of Darkness.

- the lenght and dangers of the travel is not very profitable though, so the Anpagans will try to set up some permanent trading posts in Zhun (so that they could only come for transport then) => the first Zhunite ports are founded (the nowadays cities of Zhun). At first they were just trading posts (oh, they are not building them all in once, it's a process that takes a bit of time), but more Anpagans come to settle there attracted by the promises of wealth and a life of adventures (they are quite fond of adventuring types btw). In time they will mix up with the Krath => thus we have a new identity and a basis for the later Zhunite revolts.

- the situation will explode only around 1750-1700 bS - so that we can have plenty of time for the birth of the Zhunite people (800 years) as a separate identity from Krath and Anpagan (although they are still under direct Krath rule, with Anpagans holding some priviledges there - concerning trade of course)


Ok, now if we agree on this we have a start. The next step would be to decide what went wrong in 1750 bS. Here are some first thoughts:

- So the wars between Krath and Anpagan should not be full-scale but colonial... This means that at some point the Krath and Anpagans will have to meet south of Benderrath. But this also means that the Tyr Faerath guys will be for a time (at least) removed from their position of guardians of the trade routes. So I really don't know if this dev direction is really wise... I picture the Anpagan land expansion more towards the east (west of Tyr Faerath I'm thinking that the Korweynite influence was mainly just military not administrative, isn't that what you proposed, Koldar?). And actually I think that Tyr Faerath could act as a point of stability in this area during the Dark Ages (we should give them a more important role - ex. that fort Victorhin described). Also, the area south of Benderrath should be pretty wild, only some isolated fortifications to prevent the barbarians from moving eastwards => the Krath presence there should serve the same purpose, to prevent the barbarians from moving westwards (they just replace the Korweynites, no real colonies necessary).

- On the other hand we could keep just the Zhunite cities as the point of discontent between these two. Here the Anpagans should wait for the 30 years war with Orcal to make their decisive move.

- A Krathian incursion on Anpagan lands should be ok, as I previously proposed, some faction asks for help => the Krath sends in some of their new nomad friends (to be defeated actually).

- another idea: you proposed once an assasination. Ok with it, is simple, knowing the subtelty of Krathian poisons some faction employs Krath assasins to provoke an "accident". The Anpagans will provide any logistics necessary.

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #5 on: 19 June 2004, 13:48:00 »

Can we draw the first contact with Anpagan a bit futher into the past, like sometime around 2700-2600bS? In one story I've already mentioned some rich families there. (if possible i'd say a more ionian model would fit better than a phon. one in Zhun) By the end of 3000bS era, glass manufacturing, glass works, wood works (the trees there are more suitable for sculptures) started to form in the cities of Zhun. (Not in the rural areas of course. So: the cities as the center of trade and industry, and the surrounding rural areas as the farmland)

As I said around 2700s would be a good time - I have a very potent and ambitious mage trying to become a part of one of the houses there (PS Smith: Guess who?). Becoming the house of all Anpagan operations would certainly be something this mage would do anything for. First come, first serve. If his house can get into the trade first, they get the chance to set the rules for the rest of the Krath-esh'talath.

For the conflict I'd say, let's stick to proposals two, three and four.


EDIT: See my next installment of the Dhorian siege to get a glimpse of this mage ;)  

Edited by: Coren FrozenZephyr at: 6/18/04 21:50
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« Reply #6 on: 19 June 2004, 17:51:00 »

Anis-Anpagan is born in the aftermath of the Second Shadow War - 3200 bS. By 2700 bS I think it's possible for them to reach the shores of Zhun.

So how do you see the timeline then?

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #7 on: 23 June 2004, 15:28:00 »

Fine for me. Just give me smt to work on :)  

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« Reply #8 on: 23 June 2004, 16:58:00 »

Ok, just present the timeline here as you see it now. We'll discuss more after that.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #9 on: 24 June 2004, 03:42:00 »

I think for the Zhunites to retain a different identity than the Krath, they have to be explicitly treated differently by the Krath and develop a different culture. We could make the Zhunites originally being Krathians who -because of the wealth of their cities - tried to become indpendant, or let them originate from their own ancestors (being subdued by the Krathians).
Because when they're simply more Krath, Anis Anpagan will have a bad position. Thus when the Krathian empire is in turmoil also the tension between the Zhunites and the Krathians must increase for whatever reason.


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Smith in Exile
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« Reply #10 on: 24 June 2004, 05:58:00 »

Actually I was thinking that they are more Anpagan then Krath, since the Anpagans built their city-ports. However, the Krath side of the Zhunites might originate in a certain population not so high-viewed in the empire => this is also the reason for which they were sent there to farm the lands or work the mines.

The "colonists" status from the Anpagan side might also be enough of a reason that they would try to have their own ways, even if Anis-Anpagan will behave as their "older brother" after the "Breaking" of Krath.

I think it works this way (we must have some "mixed" populations, just as the Anpagans are, we can't have only "pure" tribes never to mingle with their neighbours, humans tend to do that you know :)  one cannot fight against the various lovers on their lands :D )

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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #11 on: 24 June 2004, 11:05:00 »

I don't like the "mistreated" idea. Doesn't suit Krath. And they weren't sent there to work the mines. In fact the mines were discovered way later. And funny enough, sending someone "farming" a distant land is one of the greatest compliments the government can make to a person.

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« Reply #12 on: 24 June 2004, 12:05:00 »

Coren, you described in your entry a ruling tribe of Krathian and others of not such elite blood. That's mistreating because obviously your empire distinguishes between a elite kind of people who control the administration and have a certain heritage and those others who are only good to be ruled and work farms. Even if this distinction was practical at one point, it won't be appreciated anymore when the whole system doesn't work anymore. As you take the Ottoman empire as a rough guide in your empire structure, look at what happened to it.

At the start it was the most enlightened and powerful Muslim empire of all times, but at one point it started to disintergrate through corruption, because the distribution system of food didn't work anymore, senseless wars, etc. Your empire seems extremely organized and centralistic, this alone will sooner or later mistreat people and at a point where economy does not strife anymore people might decide that they don't accept mistreatment anymore for wealth.

When your empire works from beginning to end perfectly there's no reason that they would fall into disorder or get bushwacked by some ambitious Anpagans. :)  


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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #13 on: 25 June 2004, 05:58:00 »

I understand your concern dear Koldar, but I was thinking of the opposite; a different route to end up in the same place ;)  

The reason "mistreated" Zhuns wouldn't work is: It was the Lillivear, the elite group you're talking about - see Tribe entry for more details :) , that acted as pioneers in Zhun. In time they would mix with the local people there and form the dominant Zhunith families in Krath's economy.

Now what about this:

Since Zhun around the Year of Darkness is pretty much Krath + Locals + Anpagan:

Due to their Anpagan heritage, and (mainly) the comfort they are used to, the ruling families in Zhun chose to "finance" all those expeditions, defenses and battles instead of sending their precious sons&daughters, and of course the workforce intot the battlefield. This worked pretty well at first, since Krath almost got bankrupt in the Orcal wars and any others that we decide to add. But after sometime (30 years is a very long period for a war), when all but the Zhuniths started to decrease in number and families were left without fathers and mothers by the thousands wept for their dead sons, daughters etc. (and of course when the main bulk of Krath economy started to fail due to all the shortage of workers etc Zhun furthered its dominance over the sector - they have become the puppet/slave masters now ;)  ) thigns began to change. No longer were the Zhuniths regarded with such benevolent thoughts by the rest of Krath-esh'talath.  I don't know how to explain this but... The Zhun-Krath alliance no longer benefitted the families, thus they turned towards a newer, a stronger trade partner: Anis Anpagan. And of course the dislike and mistreatment towards the Zhunith also helped.  

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"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #14 on: 25 June 2004, 05:59:00 »

Sorry for double posting, but my internet connection doesn't allow me to edit such long posts with ease :)

@smith: Doesn't Benedictus mean smt like 'blessed' in Latin?

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"Everything should be as simple as possible and not simpler." Albert Einstein

"Is he allowed to do that?"
"I think that comes under the rule of Quia Ego Sic Dico."
"Yes, what does that mean?"
"'Because I say so', I think."
"That doesn't sound like much of a rule!"
"Actually, it's the only one he needs." (Making Money by Terry Pratchett)
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