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Koldar Mondrakken
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« on: 02 August 2004, 11:19:00 »

Ok, let's continue these snapshots of Nybelmarian history. I only worked in eastern Nybelmar because I have no clue of the west and what should happen there with Krath during this time.

In the East we see Aca Santerra expanding its territory and it's sphere of influence. (light orange and orange)

The Korweynite empire (red) has consolidated its core territories but with the fall of the Murmillion lords several other regions have consolidated their power trying to hold their interest(anything between the red blob and the orange blob), Aca-Santerra being extremely interested in exploiting the situation.

Ultimately the two empire will fight for nearly 700 years for territory between them, both striving for hegemony in the east. But for the next future Korweyn will try to regain control over Ontwana and Aca-Santerra will increase its influence on the coastal cities and epand its trade routes. In the end the power of the Korweynite will increase and increase while the Santerrans will get diverted by other interests (like increased trade with Stratania and R'unor challenging them on the Seas)

The First realm of Fullwanooth(green) is founded at the today's site only to get into a battle to the death with the Chyrakisth. But the idea of an elven stronghold will prevail and ultimately become a freehaven for anyone seeking a new start.

The Hilldwarves realm is independant but kind of integrated in Fullwanooth in the sense that both share some enemies.



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Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 8/1/04 19:21
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« Reply #1 on: 02 August 2004, 11:23:00 »

I would very much like to see a horde of hilldwarves trying to live with pointy-ears... :lol  

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« Reply #2 on: 02 August 2004, 11:33:00 »

They don't live together but the Hilldwarves wouldn't really have a moralic problem to sell something to the elves and when someone tries to kill one of them it is most likely the other will get his beating as well.

Dwarves in the Hills, elves in the plains, the city and to the south.


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« Reply #3 on: 03 August 2004, 17:40:00 »

I see here the same problem as in the previous map, regarding the Murmillion area. The Free Murmillions should live only in the peninsula, being surrounded by the mountains. The Moon Hills area (Oberion Thaleseth) and some territories a bit up to the north of that, should belong to "Santerran" Murmillions (meaning the clans that accepted, willingly or not, the Santerran domination - these also being the clans that were severed from the "hardcore" Murmillions of Ehebion).

As for how long to the north of the Moon Hills these territories should go, I would propose half way up to Fullwanooth. We also need some kind of natural barrier there - a wasteland or perhaps a wasteland + an unhospitable river. Beyond this natural border perhaps we can place a Chyrakisth clan or (if the Chyrakisth are too problematic there) some rather independent plain elves clans. The main thing would be that there should be no major settlement in the area, Fullwanooth being the only option.

Also about Fullwanooth. What about this idea: not two Fullwanooths but three. There was the first one, built by the elves, which was already functioning around 3500 bS. The Chyrakisth wipe them out and then the dwarves are rebuilding it so that it can be active around 1000 bS. Then another cataclysm happen (perhaps of Chyrakisth "origins" as well) so that again the settlement is wiped out. Later on some humans (from Loreney, trying to escape from something - there were their wars against the orcs, but I don't know if that's still available) arrive there and rebuild the city for the third time. The School of Ames that Viresse is working on would then fit in such a background perfectly - humans always have this tendency of digging up the past, right? :)  Besides, such a history would make the city indeed unique in the area, legitimating even more the mixture of races and cultures. Oh, and not to mention a nice catastrophic myth (of the human logic) about a possible next cataclysm and a fourth Fullwanooth, belonging to orcs or Chyrakisth. Hmmm... if Viresse and Victhorin will help me I might try to take on their people and religion entries (even if I planned to deal a bit with Kaleman as a next project)...

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« Reply #4 on: 04 August 2004, 02:55:00 »

I don't quite like the Santerrans just claiming everything to the north. that's not "quite" Santerran style. They don't like to bother about other people and even if they're arrogant &/%!" occupying someone includes for them taking care of them. I wanted them to rush northward to claim the current ridge of the Moon Hills simply because after getting nearly defeated by the Murmillions they wanted such a ridge between them and the other guys to fortify. So they do not really give a damn what some lunatic barbarians do north of that ridge. Another reason being that their army consists to probably 80% or more of sea soldiers, the Enayctar, which is used as infantry in landing operation and sieges (the best way to reach someone in the Santerran realm is by ship). The Santerrans to this point have only started to wage war to land beyond singular infantry battles, the Frathra are nowhere to be seen.
This means they can only occupy people by stripping their navy of crews so they'd naturally aim for the shortest and best line of defense possible. This is why they'll start to implement a new unit called after your tribe to supplement their army when they got into serious trouble with the Korweynites. Their goal to get those Frathra guys is also solely based on their experiences against Kassite warriors chopping up their infantry. Their interest in the west being that various of these once eastern Korweynite cities have some bonds to the ancient Endi and are thus partly related to the Santerrans. Trying to "unite" themselves with some distant brothers is more likely than with some nasty barbarians (Santerran point of view)

Maybe we need to take care that the eruptions after the Murmillion defeat really pressed them to hide in their most defensive spots, or is there something else I miss?

I don't see why a natural border is necessary? It's the problem of the Santerrans when they don't get what they want, not ours! ;)


About Fullwanooth: Well, I don't really have anything against this place being destroyed multiple times but I wanted the unique aspect of this place being that it were elves not humans that run it. The elves of the Autumn forest build this city at this place to somehow reconnect themselves with the other elves of eastern Nybelmar. That didn't quite work because of the civil war alienating a good bunch of elves from the others and because the Chyrakisth won't just go away because you build something in their way.
I was more aiming at an extraordinary event that actually made elves pursueing a multiracial society and opening their only fortified city to others, mainly because they need anyone they can get to survive on the plains. For the possible citizens: Escaped slaves from the Chyrakisth. I currently think that the Chyrakisth should harass all their neighbors with raids taking prisoners to work for them and by force and magic actually let their realm run solely on slave labour. As they don't see humans and dwarves as very high up the food chain they do not really have a moralic problem with that. In a whole this means 100 Chyrakisth on average control quite a strong principality with maybe thousands of slaves. Some of them might escape again and the closest place to go is Fullwanooth (when they're lucky enough to head that direction)

The Loreney orcs will now be the Chyrakisth that should have their power bases around the two black blobs I indicated in the Zsharkanion Peaks and to the North.


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« Reply #5 on: 05 August 2004, 18:32:00 »

Ah, it's ok with Fullwanooth, I just need the city to be active around 3500 bS - in order to keep the Arkhaeon Guild's history up to date. So as long as a version of Fullwanooth exists during that time, the entries can wait a little.

Now, about the Murmillion problem, I must say that I'm very confused right now. Probably because your old Santerran entries on which I based my assumptions have become a bit outdated. Still I need this matter to be clarified because of that short story I'm working on - it happens right in this age, and I would really want to have it finished until the next updates, so I can move on to other things.

So let's see if we can sort these things out.


We have the Year of Darkness and the Ehebion-Santerran war which ends with the defeat of Murmillions by Asthalon.

This defeat is also facilitated by the fact that the Murmillion society was split in two major factions (a thing that you also mention in your Asthalon entry). One of the factions was influenced by the "official" Arkhaeon Guild and they were quite fond of that new cult of "The Unspoken". They have interpreted the Darkness as a major sign for them to wage war against anyone not following their ways. The Santerrans were supposed to be the first. The other faction was influenced by the "rogue" Arkhaeon Guild (which was also the "true" one) and they were all speaking against this new holy war (again for religious reasons: "The Unspoken" should never be considered as a god, Mari being their one and only). They were both interpreting in their own way Theodunn's prophecy actually.

After their defeat at Altyr, some of the Murmillion Families have retreated in the mountains of Ehebion, listening the call of the "rogue" Arkhaeon Guild. They were seeing this as a return to the place of power in which their kind was originating. The volcanic eruptions that you mention now are not a new thing (the priesthood of Retarra was supposed to claim such a deed, as I recall), but the fact that the retreat to Ehebion was caused by them is a new thing for me. I don't know how else could they have influenced the Murmillions other than being a sign more for the fact that they should return to their origins. (Also, presenting the eruptions as the main cause would somehow diminish the role of Asthalon - a role that I see as essential: Asthalon was after all married to one of their own and he also was partly educated on the Moon Hills => his major speech before the gates of Altyr that have cast a doubt in their hearts has no other explanation in my view).

Following this hasty retreat, the Santerrans move in to take Lhindal under control. The strategic importance of this city is crucial: that's why the Murmillions have built it there in the first place. Whomever controls Lhindal, controls the whole Moon Hills area. Also, this city oversees the only accessible and large enough route to the Ehebion peninsula. => the "stalemate" that evetually led to the separation of Murmillions and to the myths regarding the strange or abominable things that happen in the "circle"/"sickle"/"epheran'yphero"/etc.

Ok, now I understand Santerrans not wanting to get themselves a headache more by trying to actively subdue the Moon Hills Murmillions. Still, they also do not want another such war to happen again. And here comes the problem. There are still 3k years more to the current Santharian time - a heck of a long time. Thus I find it hard to believe that in 3k years there were no more attempts to restore the Shadow Realm. The way we imagined Murmillions even leaves room for an alliance with Chyrakisth, as crazy as it may seem; that is if their relation with Santerrans continues to be founded on animosities. So, in order to prevent such things, the Santerrans and the Moon Hills Murmillions need to learn dealing with each other.

I was not thinking about the Moon Hills as territories in the care of Santerrans, instead I was seeing a more feudal relation. After the Year of Darkness war, Murmillions are left without their previous social structure (with the Cults of Mari, the King/Queen and the Drakkar corps): the Cults are "subdued" by the previously "official" Arkhaeon Guild and transformed into a single Cult of Mari, the King has died in the Altyr battle and all the remaining drakkars fled to Ehebion. So all that remains actually are only the noble Houses, those that own land in the Moon Hills area and those that asked for refuge to the others (not wanting to cross the mountains in Ehebion). Pursuing only their own interests, they would willingly accept to pledge their loyalty to the Santerran High-King (especially if he is Asthalon, but even if not I still see it as the wisest thing to do in the given conditions). I mean vassality. Of course, such a relation implies that should the king ever needs their soldiers they should provide, but I guess neither parts were actually thinking that might ever happen. Probably the Santerrans were happy that no more troubles were foreseen and the Murmillions were happy that none of the other Families will become their new ruler (kinda like, "if I can't have it no one will"). But with the new wars against Korweyn, the opportunity for such a reconciliation is perfect. The Santerrans lacking some good land soldiers might experiment in a moment of desperation and call for the help of the Moon Hills Houses. With the perspective of spilling some "Infidel" blood once again (as in their now only remembered times of glory) the Murmillions accept. By turning the tide of war against the Korweyn (in some moment of course, I don't know yet what you plan about that) they could win that special status of providers and trainers of infantry in Aca-Santerra. Of course, this doesn't mean that the Moon Hills are considered to be Santerran territories. They are still Murmillions, just that they accept the High-King as the supreme authority. Yet, we need to mark them somehow on the map - because they are not an independent nation either.

Bottom line, as long as the Santerrans control Lhindal and the southern ridge of the Moon Hills with small forts and garrisoned troops, and as long as the noble Houses are left to their own ways and tickled with some sense of honor from time to time (the army corps), there should be no problems.


As for that short story, the second chapter is in the Library forum now ["A Shadowcaster's Letters 2 ("The Fallen")"] and it contains some info about the situation in this area. The letter entitled "First letter to Menon..." and the last paragraphs of the "Fifth letter to Kassian Karonn" are presenting it. I would appreciate if you would take a look at them, because I still have time to change things that are not really in place there. I also plan to have that Santerran guy play an important role in the story and perhaps we can use this to have another "snapshot" of how the Moon Hills Murmillions got to better their terms with Santerrans (I was even thinking that maybe the Santerran version of Mari have originated in these times right in the Moon Hills among these Murmillions). As for that Free Murmillion "visiting" the Moon Hills, he will be used by the Ehebion Arkhaeons to anihilate the Moon Hills outer branch and thus the heretical Cult of Mari (among other things actually).

And one last thing: why I need more territories to the north? Well, because I think that the Moon Hills Murmillions should have an area at least the size of Ehebion. That's because their numbers are supposed to be larger (and if we judge that Ehebion cannot hold the same population density, it's ok but they both should have at least similar sizes). The natural barrier (not a mountain type, but more of an uninhabitable place) could explain why the Shadow Realm and later the Moon Hills Murmillions never expanded further to the north. -> they usually went where there were people (humans) living. We talked about this before and we agreed that we should actually extend the Moon Hills area while shortening the Ulinoth plain (meaning you drawing some more smaller and smaller hills on the map, north of what is already there as Moon Hills).

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #6 on: 06 August 2004, 05:38:00 »

Ah, okay, now I see, I'm getting a little bit confused sometimes concerning Nybelmar, not always sure what we wanted where and when...

Quote:
Thus I find it hard to believe that in 3k years there were no more attempts to restore the Shadow Realm...


Why do you assume there won't be other attempts in the next 3000 years? What do you think what the mythical aspect of Asthalon as the "Stone"-king (stone not as in rock but in precious, magical ones. My image was that similar to king Arthur, Asthalon residing on the empty Throne of Menemronn in deep slumber until the time the evil forces try to occupy it again and unleash its forces by implementing the eight stones, obviously that's only Santerran legend)There'll be an attempt at least a Third Shadow Realm...


I'm not really sure about the vassal thing though. It's as if the Santerrans would treat the Murmillions equally to their own people which is simply unthinkable for them. I actually thought that the Santerrans beat the bloody crap out of the Murmillions and take rather unhonourable revenge till this part of the Murmillions submit to them.
While the Santerran might keep the clans/noble families intact for ease of government they would never accept some barbarian lord standing on an equal level like any Santerran Lord towards the Highking. Another main problem being that the Santerran Highking is extremely weak, not more than the prestige and supreme command on outside matters are of his concern but each single "Seaking" of every single city on Santerran islands actually aims for just the same position. Thus some vasall only loyal to the Highking would mean a civil war. There must be at least one level of governors between the Highking and the Murmillions consisting of Santerran noblemen. I actually don't expect that to work very well or being very stable at times...

The inflexibility of the Santerrans will afterall be the doom for their ambitious plans in Southern Nybelmar

Well, but I get the distinct feeling we misunderstand each other. With the eruptions I meant the political and social chaos ensueing because of the religious turmoil and the military defeat at the hands of the Santerrans (the Asthalon entry mentions at least two battles, one at Altyr, one on the Plains of the Jerrah). The reason for these defeats can be that scores of Murmillions abandoned the war because of the religious splitting but all in all the Santerrans go on a killing spree after Altyr inflicting serious defeats on the Murmillions staying to fight and going north to occupy what they can get and hold. I always assumed some Murmillions turning their backs on Ehebion being only one factor in this, certainly not one someone as ruthless as the Santerran Lords would depend on.



I still need info on Krath and Anpagan btw. What's up with them 1000 b.S.?


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« Reply #7 on: 06 August 2004, 17:36:00 »

Well, about the Krath area I think we should already have the Zhun cities independent, while the Krathians are still under the influence of that "breaking" Coren was talking about (meaning an age of downfall for them).

Anis-Anpagan is consolidating the republic, being in the aftermath of their dissensions with the new Korweynites. Their trade routes and agreements in the west are now very stable and they start looking more to the west now. This is also the age when the first sarvonians reach Nybelmar => new opportunities for Anpagans. With the Santerrans busy on the mainland they could try to get a hold on the Crimson Islands => a possible base for some future developments in the Nybelmarian history.

Now let's get back to the Moon Hills area :)  and let's try pin down some basic things (at least).

For a start here is a list with some reasons for the Murmillions defeat:
- the Legates don't send any help, showing that the old Shadow Realm is actually just a pale memory of what it once was.
- the remaining Murmillions are split by two opposite religious ideas which threatens their very own social system.
- they have allowed the Santerrans to get a too strong grip on the mainland (especially at Altyr), enough to make them fight against all odds, as if they were fighting for their own ancestral homes (which is true, but no one remembers that anyway). The Santerran resistance in the siege of Altyr is one of the key points of this war.
- the "berserk" campaign that they have initiated is a 50%-50% risk, "all or nothing": the fact that they didn't managed to break the Santerrans completely, engaging in that final and very lenghty siege, have allowed their enemies to bring reinforcements and turn the tide (I'm not thinking only about Asthalon but also about that second army landing in the north)

There are probably more, as always. Anyway, I still see the role of Asthalon as essential from Murmillions perspective, his speech stands at the base of everything that follows after that (the retreat to Ehebion, the slaughtering of a confused army and the final "resignation" of the Moon Hills Houses). As you mention in the Asthalon entry, everything is interpreted from the ancient prophecy (which I later assigned to Theodunn).

Ok, bottom line is the Santerrans won, the Murmillions lost. In the chaos that follows the battle of Altyr it's not hard for now the enthusiastic Santerrans to push them back north and take over Lhindal. So let's see about the aftermath.

Hmmm... yes, in these conditions, vassals to the High King is not working but only symbolically. Still, even a symbol can always be a perfect reason for war. But let's take the Santerran class system as you write it in the tribe entry.

- The Nobles: it's obvious that the Santerrans don't consider the Moon Hills Houses as Nobles, despite the fact that the situation is actually mirrored on the other side; but I guess the Santerrans couldn't care less about what a barbarian is thinking about them.

- The Citizens: (and I quote) "The Citizens are those families who have proven their worth by providing their fighting skills to the security and unity of the High Kingdom. The families keep these rights as long as one or more members of their family are part of the elite formations of the Santerran army. There are three types of them: The Frathra, the Enayctar and the Murmillion. Being the major and best trained part of the High King's army they are responsible to none but him. These warriors have sworn loyalty to the king and this way ensure the loyalty of too ambitious noblemen as well and are respected by the common people."

- The Allies: (and I quote again) "The Allies are people from tribes who were subdued by force or merged into the kingdom. The Santerran think that they're of different blood than themselves and so they are not completely integrated into the society. Usually these tribes are allowed to govern themselves and are treated as permanent allies of the kingdom. Their only duties are to pay tribute to the king and provide men in case of war otherwise everything else is up to them as long as it does not affect Santerrans.
The greatest honour the High King can grant is to make an Ally a Santerran duchy, making all people on it Santerrans protected by Santerran law and power"

- The Free: does not concern the current topic

- The Slaves: not the case here


So, we see Murmillions as citizens here. But I would go for an Ally status and perhaps only later and only for a certain number of Murmillion Houses the status is changed to Citizen.

As I said, the Murmillions that stay in the Moon Hills would accept such a new covenant as long as they are relatively left to their own ways. I see them rather accepting a Santerran lord over them all, than to see one of the rival Families supplying the new Murmillion King. Also, having the southern ridge of the Moon Hills secured and with the option at hand to prevent the forming of a new Ehebion, I'd say they would also go for such a deal. The Ally status also solves the problem of "equality" and leaves room for future bickerings should some of the Moon Hills Houses are to be elevated to the Citizen status.


Good. Now about the Third Shadow Realm. Well, when I asked you about that, your answer was that it concerns the Coor'rhem and probably Chyrakisth, so Murmillions are a bit out of the question this time. With the Free Murmillions from the Ehebion peninsula living under the cover of myths (up to the point that even their own Moon Hills brothers doubt their existance) up to this day, yes we have 3k years of relative peace lol. Now, of course, I am not against some more troubles coming from an Ehebion bent on reviving the old projects once again. But I would prefer such things to be closer to the current santharian date. Yet I don't know, maybe it could work to fill an aS age with such a third Shadow War involving all the east and perhaps the west as well.


Oh and there is the problem of the Santerran version of Mari. If the Santerrans decided to include a foreign god in their pantheon, than this means that at least a part of them don't have too much despising feelings for Murmillions. On the contrary. Also, Asthalon's bio proves that links like this are possible (that's why I keep saying that he is important for Murmillions as well)


Do we have a deal, then? lol ;)  

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« Reply #8 on: 06 August 2004, 18:35:00 »

In generally yes. The Santerrans would leave the Murmillions on their own as long as they provide troops and tribute _as the Santerran please_ The main thing is that the Santerrans will somehow fragment any opposition that much, making sure no broad interest groups might form to unite against them. As this there must be some kind of restriction that makes sure the Moon Hill Murmillions don't unite with each other or even Ehebion. If the Santerrans can insure that (in my opinion by imposing own governors in between certain regions to check on things) they don't care what each Murmillion village does.

You could say, first they destroy any opposition and force an enemy into submission, bound, chain and gag him and after that release him as a "free" ally, however in a state where he can no longer pose an organized threat to them.

With the landing on the continent the Santerrans sooner or later must have made contact with Mari and though they're very strict somehow the practices of Mari must have appeared promising for desperate people and thus also sneaked into Santerran society. The more important influence on the Santerran side however are the temples, esspeciallly the seers of Thalisien. When they make a prophecy which destinies a to-be-king to be blessed by a foreign god the Santerrans will obey to that. That's why actually many priests and men in power tried to get Asthalon away from the throne. Someone blessed by foreign gods must not be Highking! As we know the fact that didn't turn out this way. And Asthalon the Black indeed saved the kingdom thus legitimizing the god aka Aca-Tar under whose behalf he acted.
You could say that the Santerrans are so deeply religious that they even change their religion when in their eyes the gods tell them to do so.

Still, Mari should be still looked upon by most Santerrans in normal life, given the strange rituals her temple seems to practice but they would not dispute her place. Actually the Santerrans probably think that any other culture also follows some kind of Aca-Tars, however those gods don't assisst the Santerrans and thus must not be worshipped.


Just a note, I will tweak the society entry along with the military entry reducing the power of the Highking and also the rights of the citizens. I just feel that a more diverging society better suits them, I always envisioned them to fight like Greek citystates among each other before the founding of Altyr and still pursue their conflicts afterwards. The Highking being more a stabilizing factor introduced by the temples than a real monarch with ultimate power over his lords.


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« Reply #9 on: 06 August 2004, 19:07:00 »

I read your last letters and they seem to be fine. An idea to how the Santerrans handle the occupation also came to my mind. Instead of ruling any of the noble houses they instead control certain key points like Lhindal and other major towns with own governors. To add to that they might have founded Santerran enclaves in the Moon Hills, given that we're in a medieval setting there should be always some place uninhabitated to distribute to someone and in this case bolster Santerran presence without the neccessity to meddle in Mumillion affairs or even worse, depend on them. :)  So they do not take action into Murmillion politics outside their territories but have enough own people in the important places to have great control.


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« Reply #10 on: 07 August 2004, 15:16:00 »

Sounds good, I like it, even the Santerran enclaves.

Now, maybe we should proceed to clarify the next issue: the Korweyn - Anpagan war. But I'll guess you'll make the first step in the entry about Tiara (btw, it looks fine with me until now, I have no objections whatsoever).

After that we still need a decision on Fullwanooth, and if hopefully Coren will make up his mind about the Krath history we'll have the western part done also.

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