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Author Topic: Forests in Manthria  (Read 2973 times)
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Gean Firefeet
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« on: 13 January 2006, 18:02:00 »

Greetings dear developers,

while considering my options for Ravenport, I had to think about lumber. Lumber is vital to any seafaring nation: you build ships and harbours with it. The Avennorians at the western coast, Lorehaven and Ravenport, will need lumber to help in their industries.

Unfortunately, the local woods are all populated. Of course, there are Elves in the woods, and there should be Elves in the woods (where else would you find them?) but are these all the woods there have ever been? I can imagine that once upon a time, forest stretched all the from the Narfost Plain up to Rimmerins Ring. But now, it's cut off by the Tolonian Heath, the Sharadon seperated from the Auturian Woods. Add to the aforementioned the following line from Wiki: "Heaths are anthropogenic habitats found primarily in northern and western Europe, where they have been created by thousands of years of human clearance of natural forest vegetation by grazing and burning on mainly infertile acidic soils." I also have in mind the climate of central Spain, where the lumber industry for the great armada's in Spain's golden age made sure this terrain ended up like a vast wasteland (with its own beauty of course). On the other hand I think of the English and Dutch heaths, results of centuries of farming and giving the lands back to nature.

My question is:
Would it be possible that the Tolonian Heath gradually became heath and used to be forest, cut away by Avennorians using it for their ships and industries? This 'deforesting' could be a process lasting thousands of years, starting as the Glandorians landed in Ciosa start to spread in all directions. Of course it'll involve conflicts with the Elves, setting up new industries, new types of ships, buildings, lumberjack skills, but it's also a nice start to think of the origins of the towns. For example, Klinsor could well be the original 'town at the edge of the forest' from where the Avennorians started their work. Ravenport could have been founded before there was a clear way west over the Tolonian Heath, the Avennorians rounding Cape Strata and going north afterwards coming upon the Gulf of Maraya.

Let me know what you think!

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Bard Judith
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« Reply #1 on: 13 January 2006, 22:28:00 »

OK, here's my reaction - absolutely!

a) They are not all the woods that have ever been.  Your explanation is not only logical, it's lyrical and compelling.  We have to have timber for our developments, and I have been agonizing about where it came from to build Marcogg, for example... not to mention New Santhala.  Having a slow deforestation is perfectly correct for the medieval age in which Caelereth moves - and replicates what happened to Middle Ages England.  

But do note that:

b)  They are not all the woods that currently exist.  I convinced Artimidor that while in large-scale only the major 'owned' forests exist (just as human provinces are labeled, so the forests are marked because they are elven homes), in smaller-scale and close-up maps we can add as many forests, woods, copses and coppices as we need to be logical for the area and the population, which humans can then manage and draw their fuel/building needs from.  


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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #2 on: 14 January 2006, 04:47:00 »

Generally yes.
The Tolonian Heath could surely be forested some time ago, but not all the area from the Sharadon to the Rimmerings Ring, because the land is already inhabited by the Darians (the pre-Shendar). A great percentage of this tribe will migrate to the south due to the Avennorians (the rest will mix with them, being the lower ranks). So though there can be a lot of additional small forests, a great deal of the country is already inhabitated and cultivated. So no impenetrable forest from west to east. Therefore I doubt, that the Avennorians have preferred the route around the Cape of Strata. They were not interested in the western seas at all in the beginning. I think it is far easier for them to travel over land than to suround Cape Strata, it is a long way from Ciosa to Thalambath, no harbour inbetween! I think it is more probably, that there is an old road from the Klinsor area to Lorehaven.

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Gean Firefeet
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« Reply #3 on: 14 January 2006, 09:31:00 »

@Judy: check at your note b). Perhaps I can even ask Art to add a tree here and there on the Manthrian Map, should it require to be added in, but it sounds convincing enough for me for those places which don't have detailed maps.

@Talia: we can have a bit of both if you ask me. The Darians would simply another force in the power balance of ancient myth. We're talking about 10.000 b.S. after all. Say that the Darians already lived in the Manthrian region when the Glandorians came from the Northern Sarvonian continent: the Darians would have farmland and perhaps even quarreled with the Elves over land. It would simply mean that the Darians started deforesting even before that time, perhaps they even arrived at the location together with the Elven during the Great Sundering. The humans would start to cut the forests, while the Elves would stop them at certain points where their own territory started. It may then be more logical that the three tribes in the Zeiphyria, Auturian and Sharadon forests have been seperate from the beginning, instead of spreading at a later date as I first had in mind. They would simply be three elven tribes migrating from the north on their own, finding a location on their own, just like the Darians did.

When the Avennorians come, the Darians are pushed south. It sounds logical that the 'homely' nature of the Sharadon dwelling Elves comes from this time, when they recieve the refugee Darians, while the Avennorians slowly but steadily start to occupy the Manthrian lands. On the other hand, the famous Keirean <sp?> warriors could also originate from this time, when the Elves were forced to defend their forests, first versus the Darians, then against the 'invading' Avennorians.

Thanks for the input so far, more always welcome :thumbup  

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #4 on: 14 January 2006, 14:40:00 »

Quote Gean:


I can imagine that once upon a time, forest stretched all the from the Narfost Plain up to Rimmerins Ring

This 'deforesting' could be a process lasting thousands of years, starting as the Glandorians landed in Ciosa start to spread in all directions.

*******

Gean, I just wanted to point at the fact, that , as you said in your last post as well, the Darians already started to deforest and not the Avennorians, and to quite an amount, I would say, and that therefore the route around Strata is not likely for the foundation of Ravenport. I would assume, that the Avennorians just went west, slowly but steadily, or even a bit faster, for they  surely wanted to overpower all Darians and not let a part unbothered (that would be too dangerous, I think)






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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #5 on: 16 January 2006, 12:40:00 »

I have no problems with the suggestions, so just go ahead... However, I need to point that out very clearly: What is practically not possible anymore, though, is to add new forests, mountains or whatever at an already existing super-detailed map as the Manthrian one. If a forest isn't shown on the Santharian map, then it makes sense that there is a forest on a much more detailed map, but with the Manthrian map we have already reached the highest level of detail possible. And here we have to draw a line - whether we want it or not. Because this map is used and reused now at Flash movies, where we can zoom in and out, which means if I change a single tree at the main map, then all derived maps will be wrong. I couldn't control that anymore, things would get completely out of hand. Therefore: We've reached a line where super-detailed maps cannot be touched anymore, and need to be aware of this when developing. It's no problem to add a name to an unnamed bridge for example, but everything else needs to be creatively explained instead of simply added to the map.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 1/15/06 19:42
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #6 on: 16 January 2006, 13:55:00 »

Yes, I should have phrased that a bit more carefully in b) above.

In the small-scale maps THAT ARE BEING DEVELOPED OR ARE NOT YET DEVELOPED we can add forests wherever we want - they do not have to 'show up' on the big master maps.  However, when we get down to the 'superdetailed' level, as Art calls the Manthrian map, no, we can't even add so much as a tree once the thing is finished.  Very logical and reasonable.  

In fact, in the close-ups, we are at a level of detail which shows (if not quite individual houses and trees) the exact number of bridges, the various peaks, crevasses, banks, rock formations,  and tributaries...

So do your planning now, and make sure all close-ups are as logical geographically as possible!  

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« Reply #7 on: 16 January 2006, 14:00:00 »

Yes, at other detailed provinces map we can have lots and lots of additions, just compare the Manthrian map to the Santharian one - you practically don't see a thing at the Santharian map! So in not yet drawn other pronvices maps you can plan in whatever you like at this level, and I'll see to realize that at some point in a similar map as the Manthrian one:)  With the Manthrian we have to live.


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Gean Firefeet
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« Reply #8 on: 16 January 2006, 18:31:00 »

Check!

Well that's all definately clear now, I'll be working on something in the surrounding area of Ravenport soon, as I think the city itself will make a fine masterwork and I'll save that for a later time, though sketches and ideas are jotted down daily. I think I have a few things to ask about the Avennorians before I continue my work, but that will be another thread. Thanks all so far!

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