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Author Topic: Banners, Coat of Arms, Lots of them!!!!  (Read 7898 times)
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« on: 26 October 2001, 14:27:00 »

Ok, finally I found some time to finish a whole bunch of coat of arms. I hope that they will fit the taste and the changes I made satisfy our great master (who started to argue about colors, yesterday!! *grmpf*)! So here are they:


Santharian Coat of Arms:

The Santharian banner consisting of the "Handcross" of the four big races, the Elves, the Tharanians(humans), the Dwarves and the halflings. The Runes stand for a certain race participating in this Union.


Ylfferhim:

The banner of the Ylfferhim Elves. Two wolves of the Quallian forest guarding the "Lifetree" under stary sky.

Darkwinds:

The Darkwinds, one of the mythical phenomenoms dedicated to Coór. The sign of power and fate for many of the dark elven tribes and their evil servants.

last but not least, the Sophronians:

I did the colors as requested, Capher but kept the design changes I suggested. I hope you enjoy! If you need certain reworks concerning the inner signs just let me know. Definetely one of the most abstract banners I did so far!
But I think it fits! :)    


Uh? I hope that was enough for this night. I have still other things to do so I hope you're not demanding even more or better ones!!!! ;)    


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 10/25/01 9:32:43 pm
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Capher
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« Reply #1 on: 26 October 2001, 14:30:00 »

What happend to the pictures. I know Wren's hamsters took them again. :lol  

With deepest regards,Capher

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #2 on: 26 October 2001, 14:33:00 »

Everything fine now. I only messed up the Links. ;)  

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

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Capher
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« Reply #3 on: 26 October 2001, 14:53:00 »

Fantastic, glorious, out of this World!! What more can I say but they all look great. I can't wait to use some of these in my story. The darkwinds could be Saban's coat of Arms now that would be interesting. I love the elven tribes coat of arms wolves are my favorite type of wild animal. The Idea surrounding the Santharian coat of arms is great. I love the rune Idea and the four hands. Art did you think that one up? By the way who thought up the others? Wren? Koldar?

With deepest regards,Capher

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Faugar
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« Reply #4 on: 27 October 2001, 04:02:00 »

fine works indeed. maybe the second one is a bit overexposed, but I still like them all.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #5 on: 27 October 2001, 05:30:00 »

Yeah, really cool Coat of Arms, Koldar!

I especially like the Santharian one (very cool and effective golden border by the way!) and the Darkwinds one, which indeed looks very 3-dimensional, so if you want to use it for an entry, Capher, that would be fine. But I would use it for a dark elven tribe in general, because we'll hopefully get another chaos Coat of Arms (some sort of whirlwind banner), so that dark elven tribes will probably alway represent variations of darkwinds.

Yup, I had the idea with using hands, but Koldar made them interlock and added the runes idea - and now it looks indeed very convincing! Still need to figure out what the runes mean exactly. The bottom left is the "T" for Thergerim, top left should be an elven rune (a special one), top right a human one (ancient Tharian rune) and the bottom right should be a gnomish/halfling rune. Somehow we should explain the colors as well.

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Bard Judith
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« Reply #6 on: 27 October 2001, 07:31:00 »

Stunning work!  Particularly the Handcross...I love it.

Colours were what I wanted to respond to...

with all this heraldry happening in our realm, we should make sure that we don't have a cultural bias (or at least, let's make it a Santharian cultural bias!) towards colour choices.

For example, we may all have an innate sense that white stands for purity, green for growth/trees/nature, yellow for light, and so on.

But other colour choices and 'feelings' are determined more by our ethnic background and cultural heritage:  for example, while black is the mourning colour in the West, it's white in the East.  Purple means royalty?  Only in Europe - where the Grecian murex shell once produced the rare Tyrian purple and only senators' robes were alowed thin borders of the stuff - then later it was the colour of emperors.  But in Thailand, Malaysia and other parts of SouthEastern Asia, yellow is the colour reserved for royalty!  And so on....

I've already proposed (in an easily-overlooked section in one of my games) that in Santharia we return to the medieval convention of RED for boys and BLUE for girls.  Red stood for blood, earth, fire, energy, agression - blue for purity, heaven, water, wind, renewal, forgiveness.  The tradition was reversed (and weakened) into baby blue for male children and pink for females fairly late in our recorded history.  

While I don't wish to perpetuate negative gender stereotypes, I'm not on the side of androgeny, either.  Remember, wind and water have their own powers and energy which aren't to be scoffed at!

So..... I'm going to post to the Myths section under a new thread titled COLOURS and propose some heraldic, historic, and cultural meanings and significances for the most common colours. Kind of a reference section?  Hopefully this will support, not restrict, the work of the amazing artists among us.  I'll give one possible example here, in case you're starting to worry, based on that great Handcross banner...

"The blue of the shield represents the Dream of Ava (blue might be Ava's colour? Don't recall at the moment) and is a recognition of the way in which our world is supported upon Her constant meditations.  The white represents the Winds which blow through and around our cosmos; four sections for each Great Wind (hope that's right, I can't remember the shield exactly!).  The whole is held together with a golden braid, a subtle allusion to the life force which powers Weaver magics and threads through every living thing."



PS:  In 'formal' heraldry, colour is never charged upon colour or metal upon metal (and since yellow and white stand for gold and silver, that limits the number of combinations!)  However, it's obvious that's far too constricting, and Santharian heraldry would have its own rules and limitations hedging it about based on what the various nobles, clans, and designers came up with.  Not to mention that the non-human races will have their own very different ideas!

Perhaps some flags, drapes, gonfalons, pennants and oriflammes would be a good addition to these shields, just for a bit of variety in shapes and backgrounds for heraldry?

Love and regards from Bard Judith the Eclectic




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Capher
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« Reply #7 on: 27 October 2001, 08:10:00 »

I like your ideas Judith. My description of my whole Coat of arms was a bit much for Koldar as it included supporters, helm, mantle ect. So that it could be woven into a tapestry or banner. Also the colors I used were mostly for gems that the army and nobility were distinguished by.

I love the way you integrated the colors into the Santharian shield. If there was a uniform color scheme for each tribe, kingdom, ect. Then it would be easier for artists to draw.

Also I never knew that the medievel colors for boys and girls were red and blue repectively and what they meant. As well as what the other colors in different parts of the world meant and were/are used for. That is why I love this web site you learn so much about the diversities of culture, people ect.  You sure a wealth of information.

With deepest regards,Capher

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #8 on: 27 October 2001, 10:12:00 »

Don't come to me with heraldic, Capher tried that already and I would die if you force me to decipher old heraldry to make Coat of Arms!! I knew some of the rules but they don't make sense in a fantasy environment as they also didn't make any sense in the Middle Ages. You needed it because every small knight had one.

Although full supplements of banners will be major work and go far beyond what is neccessary in the first place esspecially as most tribes still lack a simple banner.
BTW: Why should Santharian CoA consist of this traditional/realistic parts of a banner at all? It's an own world so it would have own ways of doing such things.

I don't want to argue but I think that these things are not neccessarily included into Santharia.

More interesting would be Information on how Asia, Islam and the rest handled this. I think in Japanese you wore certain colors together with a symbol on it. How did Mongols, Chinese and Indians make themselves unique in battle?

What we did so far was finding historical or mythical symbols and use them as a sign for a certain tribe. The colors express the feelings of the tribes. Also the shield form varied according to the tribes because to certain tribes just fit huge golden shields while others are far more practically aligned.

As you might've already noticed I don't like heraldic rules because they would limit the creativity. Santharia might be one kingdom but it consists of dozens of tribes who all had a different way of living. Rules wouldn't fit and I don't think that they would be welcomed by many of the tribes.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #9 on: 27 October 2001, 10:24:00 »

Yeah, such an entry would be great, Judith! I'm sure you're the right person here:)

Most Gods we have made have pretty obvious colors: red=Foiros, grey=Seyella (melancholy), black=Queprur etc. But we haven't made up a color for Avá (this entry is still a bit fragmentary), though white for obvious reasons (innate sense) sounds the most likely. Could be that Avá represents white and the dream is blue (sky, wind etc.)?

However, feel free to set up your own ideas, Judith! I appreciated to have this topic covered in full.

BTW: I personally never understood why boys are related to the color blue and girls to pink, but well, maybe that's because I'm colorblind...

P.S. I thought about maybe putting a star in the center of the Santharian CoA (don't know if this is still possible without major redesign). Currently the attention is directed to the center of the CoA - and at the very center there is hole. I have a huge thin star in mind, put behind the hands, 4 tips, all moving along the straight lines to N, E, S, W. They end at the borders. This is just a proposal in order to find something which would make the center of the CoA most effective.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #10 on: 27 October 2001, 15:37:00 »

I'm sorry, I'm somewhat overworked lately. Had done all CoA in two days and I even had a star in the Santharian CoA but was stupid enough to overwrite the copy.

Still, I have to admit that I don't like the idea of a "pseudo-heraldic". As long as any tribe creator thinks up his own mythological reasons for everything Santharia appears like a huge fruit bowl with many different people living in one big, harmonic(more or less) kingdom.
Such norms would be totally stand against it and make things worse for tribe creators and also me. General things like white for "Good" and "Black" for 'Coor' sound reasonablebut I don't want to work after textbook.
One last note on colours. I don't take any ethnical beliefs into account but 'artistic'. Yellow and red are just expressive colors, blue is always cold, green harmonic... so I use the colors that fit best to a certain shield. I'm currently thinking about working green into the Ylfferhim CoA. I'm still not satisfied with its 'impression'.

Note for Judith: White was also the mourning color in the western Europe in the Middle Ages because of the belief that the dead will now continue their life in paradise.
It became black in the terrible pest plagues because the survivors feared that the Apokalypse was coming and the Dead would take revenge on the Living. So they hid in black clothes that the dead couldn't see them.

So it's far more complicate because there were severe changes within only few decades. ;)

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 10/27/01 11:28:16 am
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Greybark
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« Reply #11 on: 27 October 2001, 22:27:00 »

I agree with Koldar on this one. Helaldry came from having a similar, common background, as was the case in Europe's middle ages. Do you really think that Elves, Orcs, Brownies, and Aca-Santerrans would all have the same way of looking at these things.

If we HAVE to have heraldry, it should be specific, as in southern Santharian elven-human heraldry.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #12 on: 28 October 2001, 05:54:00 »

2 questions:

To Koldar: Is it still possible to work in the star? At least the Santharian CoA will be the most important one, so we should try to make it perfect if possible.

To Capher: Is the Sophronian CoA accepted? If so, then it can already be integrated this update. Please confirm!

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Wren
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« Reply #13 on: 29 October 2001, 19:35:00 »

I still can't see them....

b%^£* hamsters

WHy oh Why do they plauge me so?

I'm sure its fantastic though. Thankyou Koldar.

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Bard Judith
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« Reply #14 on: 29 October 2001, 21:39:00 »

First, a note to Koldar:  Relax!

We are, actually, completely in agreement, as you will see if you read back over my initial message.

Santharia has a wide diversity of peoples AND races, and I am in no way suggesting an overall heraldic code for it.

Next, everyone:  I have merely provided some further information which may (or may not) be of use to other artists and designers, based on my knowledge of "Earth" (grin).  

Likewise, I'm not suggesting an overall 'colour code' that would bind everyone.  In fact, my object was to point out examples in order to AVOID using culturally restrictive stereotypes from our own ethnic heritages.  Individual artists' colour choices, symbolism, design principles and styles all vary widely and are what make their art unique - I would be very wary of ANY decision which restricted artistic freedom in THIS universe or our fantasy one!

Third:  Solely to be of assistance and to flesh out our world further, I would like to suggest some possible Santharian associations which will be based in THEIR cultural backgrounds - recognizing that it will vary widely from people to people and race to race.

For example, Barbarians/ plainsdwellers will probably have a preference for bright colours (since psychologically their visual development would have been limited, growing up with the monochrome browns and tans of the steppes.  Colour will often indicate where fruits, flowers, grazing grasses and other items of interest to a nomadic people can be found...)  However, merfolk might dislike bright colours on the grounds that their under-water adapted eyes are highly sensitive to light and subtle differences in shading (rather like the difference between rods and cones in the human eye - one senses black-grey-white distinctions, one reads colours)  So merfolk would have far more words for the distinctions between tones of colour: ex: navy, dark blue, grey-blue, 58 % blue, light blue, heavy blue, baby blue, sea-blue, and so on.

See where I'm going with this?

Everyone feel free to put their two drachmas' worth in...


Regards - Bard

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