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Author Topic: -We have tribes- We have lots of them!  (Read 6149 times)
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« on: 05 May 2003, 07:08:00 »

okay, somehow inspired by Curgann and Arti's note about Centoraurian borders I drew up all Santharian tribe borders.

I mainly orientated them on the description not on the existing map because the tribe maps does not recognize dwarven and elven territories at all atm. I used them as guide however when I'd to be inventive because I did not understand the territory desc or there was none at all.

Here it is:
www.thunder-productions.d...ia_pol.jpg

It's about the ancient distribution of land, of course.

Drawing it up I stumbled over problems one might not recognize when you just imagine your tribe:

-Many elven tribes are currently encircled by one sole human kingdom. While in some cases possible I think as humans and elves were enemies for quite some time their forests posed major obstacles for any human expansion. In various cases I'd assume that the human  territory would be smaller because of it.

-I couldn't decide whom to give Ximax. As Centoraurians are half nomads I somehow doubt they have much to do with mages and mountain ranges surrounded by water, two features the magic sickle has in plenty. Not sure but maybe an own realm or as part of the Kyranians it might make more sense.

-For a similar reason I'd give them the Heath of Jernais. When they're horse and cattle breeders the heaths would be a natural place to go, while Erpheronia would have to travel through the Thaelon, an elven forest, and is more urban which means they'd seek farm lands than plains.

-The Sophronians caused me a headache in their current territory. This tribe is pretty much torn apart by four elven tribes, two of them being very strong and dominant and a third, the Eophyrhim being known for not playing nicely with others. From my current feel this tribe would've been either broken apart into at least two realms, or settled more in the north away from the southern elven tribes, gaining some territory from the Eyelians around Onved instead.

-As the Maeverhim are pretty strong either, I guess that would've halted the Avenorian expansion north of their border, too.

-Was not sure if Barvados was originally Stratanian. If yes, as a seafaring nation, they might've build a port city at the east coast, too.

-The Caltharian border is rather feathered. With the Ancythrian Sea as a major obstacle I guess they would'nt have settled on the western side without building some major city. If Elsreth is Eyelian however, there wouldn't be any. Founding settlements with five other tribes around it would be however rather difficult then.

-The Isles of Ram are currently rather far off and with only Veltins as an Erepheronian port in the east, a city far off the homelands of the Erephoranians, I#m not sure they'd settle there. Maybe that would be more a place of the Caltharians who would gain some Erepheronian territory northward with Veltins, too.

- I was unsure whom to give Alvang and the various islands in the west. As with Ximax I was unsure if Centoraurians would colonize islands.

-Centorauria currently sounds a bit small when the Aerelian Lakes are their southern border. Maybe they get more from Kyrania and the southern border is somewhere north of the Ilian plateau?

-I draw the Shendar in with lots of land but as they're nomads I guess the Stratanians would claim all the lands their caravans go through. But as a population they'll stick to the coasts and cities, I think.

-Oh, when I gave dwarves some coastal strips this was mainly because it looked like land none else would really settle in anyway because it seemed far off.


All this are only my thoughts on it, partly not knowing what the various writers planned for certain tribes. I mainly looked for the tribe's homelands, their preferences and major natural borders that'd stop their settling. From these thoughts the above statements and questions arose.

But I think such a map with _all_ tribes would be helpful  development-wise, even if it stays a work in progress when different people shuffle over which city belongs to whom. :)  


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 5/4/03 3:10:17 pm
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« Reply #1 on: 05 May 2003, 16:35:00 »

Isn't Bardavos a free town?I don't think that it belongs to the Stratanian Kingdom. It is a town of artists maily, and would not need a port as urgently as a seafaring nation. They could use Dasai as well - or Varcopas.
I don't know either, if we can didvide the Shendar and the Stratanians so cleanly(?). The Stratanians are part Shendar and so the shandar will have their hands in all important political things as well - somehow. The territory in the south is too large, the Yar'Dangs are maily desert and Shendar guides are needed to cross them, but the stratanians can claim them nevertheless.
Maybe they even count the whole desert to there kingdom, though they can#t use it without the help of the Shendar.
Have to reread some parts--later.

Btw, nice map, a lot of work! :-)

Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 5/4/03 11:37:46 pm
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Silfer Darkflare
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« Reply #2 on: 05 May 2003, 17:13:00 »

Koldar: Ximax is pretty independant as well, I guess, as the Ximaxian mages are very well capable of defending the eleven towers form any wishing to claim them as their territory.


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« Reply #3 on: 05 May 2003, 18:31:00 »

The map is beautifully done!

A couple of problems with the dwarves:


a) they tend to monopolize the mountain regions in their area, but belowground. However, since the area can't be farmed productively, humans don't often 'use' the aboveground (just the odd hunter/ranger/trapper, etc.) and dwarves put their well-protected crop-farms in high mountain valleys and fastnesses which can only be reached by tunnelling.  

b)  they spread out underground.  What 'belongs' to an elven or human tribe above the surface only goes root-deep, as the dwarves say, and they tunnel where they want.  Thus the area of their underground territory is more expansive than indicated...

How this affects the map is:  it may not be possible to show the actual extent of dwarven claims without very confusing overlapping and dotted lines.  

A better trick would be to have two or three maps, one showing human claims and elven, (or a separate one for elven?)  and one showing dwarven.  Brownies, orcs, gnomes, and other smaller pockets of races can be marked on third or fourth maps depending upon the size of their claims.  When the page loads, only the greyscale map shows.  Then mousing over a list on the side would 'flash' up the appropriate map and legend...

Don't know if this is possible, and in the meantime this version is both very helpful and beautifully executed, with its shaded mountains and edges...

Thanks!

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #4 on: 06 May 2003, 02:08:00 »

Generally: That's the reason I drew the map. E.G. Ximax is currently seen as part of Centorauria but I'm not sure if that still fits to the tribe. Similary I tried to point out ither facts that currently sound weird to me.


@Talia: Hmmm... I thought that the Stratanians moved into the place from the north and stay in cities but the entry says otherwise. So Stratanians and Shendar have actually a good relationship? The same applies to Barvados as it does to Ximax. It is currently referred to as part of Stratania in the ancient kingdom maps, thus I gave it to them!

@Silfer: Thus I executed this map. Currently Ximax is considered Centoraurian territory but I also doubt this to be the case. But I think Curgan also has a say in  this. ;)

@Judith: Well, I assumed that any mountain range populated by dwarves won't be accessible by other races even when dwarves live above ground. I'd still assume that they want to keep control of the areas around their cities even if they don't use it in a productive way. Just like not wanting someone to dig somewhere without their permission or chop wood they might need for their construction sites or the smitheries.
They wouldn't do much like populating the area but they'd lay claim on all the hills they think containing raw materials they want, no?

Oh, and anything but the colours and tribes name is the original Santharian map from Arti, I just abused it by mercilessly painting over it! ;)  

Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 5/5/03 9:12:23 am
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #5 on: 07 May 2003, 07:08:00 »

Oh, I didn't find any tribe reference to the darkelves who once lived in the Shivering Woods not even a name!


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« Reply #6 on: 07 May 2003, 13:30:00 »

*waves hands*
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #7 on: 07 May 2003, 13:54:00 »

I definitely need to talk with Curgan about Ximax and Centorauria, cause of course it needs to be Centoraurian territory, a territory which gained independence in the course of time probably. Also the borders of Centorauria in the Curgan concept and on this map are problematic, though partly possible at earlier times, as the main kingdom borders are already defined, question is only the time this snapshot was made.

A map showing the exact migrations of men, dwarves, elves etc. with dates and borders as well as the changing of borders in the course of time is definitely necessary as soon as possible, though personally my time is too limited for such an endeavour.


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #8 on: 07 May 2003, 16:13:00 »

The nasty part is that we have more than two dozen tribes that would interact here, even if we assume that elves and dwarves will stay pretty stable in their realms the eight human tribes are still enough.

Eventually one could be mean and size down the amount of tribes with ambition and the blood to write history (with their blood or someone else's)?

I guess in a whole one could size that down to Erepheronia, Centorauria and Kyrania who had some territorial ambitions at one time or another and Avennoria with a centralistic government.

From Eyelians and Caltharians we read that they don't bother much about a strong kingdom so maybe the term "kingdom" is more a definition of a region than a real centralistic state with troops and stuff?

At least about the three nations that will become Tharania we have some history...

But given the two first Sarvonian Wars I fear one would need some info about elven politics as well. :

BTW: How fix are the ancient kingdom maps on the site in the sense of how representative are they?Meaning have their borders a backthought(like a certain city should belong to a certain tribe) or did they occurr on random?
Would be helpful to know, I'm afraid.

PS Sorry for opening Pandora's Box for you once in a while, Arti. :  

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« Reply #9 on: 13 May 2003, 14:49:00 »

To the south: without rereading the entries, I would say part of the people came from the north (Drafas Tristin f.e.) a lot later than the original Shendar. The Shendar themselves split up in those who settled on the coast and intermingled with the people from the north, forming the Stratanians. The relations between the Shendar and the Stratanians are forced to be more friendly than hostile, because they depend on each other to a certain extent. Maybe the Shendar tend to look a bit down onto the "week" townfolks who cannot survive in the desert without help?? I think the Stratanians can claim the desert for their territory as well, because their settlements(Strat, talambath, Varcopas) are located around on the coast, nobody else can claim this desert for themselves and the Shendar are not interested in claiming their own kingdom.
I don't know how it works or worked in Northern Africa - there were colonies declared and rights assumed without asking the Tuaregg if this is their country or not?

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« Reply #10 on: 14 June 2003, 04:54:00 »

I guess I do the politics. Tell me wht you want to know.

As for the Sopheronians..... Your estimation sounds about right. The Tetherhim and the Quaelhoirhim are both powerful tribes in their own right, and not always to nice to each other, nevermind their human neighbours.

Remeber prior SW1 the Ziephyr was more extensive than it is now. The Quallian was orriginally part of the Ziephyr and became a seperate forest as a result of deforestation and fire during the war, followed by a series of large floods and landslips unti the Theahevil river regained its equilibrium.

Looking at the entry it suggest to me that the human tribe were a divided one, they could easily fit a sort of Gaulish set up - one race made up of indvidual and independant sets.

And looking at the history section, I get the intese impression that all attacks on the Quaelhoirhim were conducted by other human leaders, the Sophronians would have both the most too gain and the most to loose in a war with the elves.

Any help?


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #11 on: 14 June 2003, 08:49:00 »

I guess Gaulish culture is possible but does not explain well the territory they inhabit at the moment. They're scattered geographical. It's a bit a weak position for them. But currently don't know how we could resolve this logical.

On a different note. Is there any explanation why Santhala became the capital of Santharia? The Eyelians don't look very urban and the Santharian kings originated from Erepheronian kings. You usually place your capital into your heartland not into the periphery. It's kind of weird to leave those lands where you have your most loyal followers. I guess this decision would need a good tale. :)

In a whole I think we should give the elves a bit more territory back in these ancient times. Currently their nfluence is coming a bit short with the borders of the human kingdoms being drawn right through their lands! Especially the Zeiphyr as you've described would form a rather big elven domain in the southern region.

In a whole  bit of a problem is that things get a rather cluttered as there does not seem to be enough land for everyone. Guess we might need to adjust territories and tribes a bit to "clean" it up a bit.

Just some thoughts.




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« Reply #12 on: 15 June 2003, 01:09:00 »

There already exists the story behind the foundation of Santhala (at least a larger part of it), see Wren's story in the Library "The Last of the Axhi":

"Santhala was constructed to hide the prison of the Mhhi. The town was constructed by Saban Blackcloak to house the dark mages, loyal to himself, that held the Mhhi enchained deep down in the bowels of the earth. At first it does not seem like an obvious choice for a hiding place, right in the middle of a populated country, but think about it! The creation of Santhala was in fact the ideal hiding place for the Mhhi. The Mhrnn, posing as the true saviour of the darkfriends was embarrassed when the Mhhi, close in thought to Cor himself, would not do his bidding. The Rimmerins Ring was local to Alvang, it was secluded, he did not need his mighty army to take the creature there. And once imprisoned far below the mountains, the darkfriends did not ever question, nor wonder at the Mhhis disappearance, just as no one questioned mages living in a small isolated settlement. All Caelereth knows that mages are curious types at the best of times! And these mages were the first of... the Guardians.

Soon though, the town began to flourish of its own accord. The land was good and productive, the Yellow river was a life giving vein that allowed easy transport, and the city was the ultimate in defensive sites, enclosed in the Rimmerins Ring.

Then, Saban went down the volcano Hckra, and left Caelereth forever. Worried about what the Mhhi would do to its tormentors and trappers, and without Saban to protect them, the mages kept it imprisoned out of fear, never breathing a word of its existence to anyone outside their circle. And so the irony came to be that the mages who once had worked for Saban, gradually became the protectors of the kingdom that grew out of his defeat, an irony that would not have been lost on the Mhrnn, I am sure.

Thus the capital of the New Santharian Kingdom, Santhala, the symbol of freedom, justice and unity under the great King Santhros was built on what the Mhrnn himself had created. Santhala was built on a secret and a lie."


Santhala then is destroyed for these dark reasons during the first centuries of the Santharian era (Wren's story starts in 299).


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/14/03 9:11 am
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« Reply #13 on: 15 June 2003, 15:13:00 »

It wouldn't need to be the capital straight away, and I am rewriting that chapter, so I can change it.

The way I see it, Santhros wants to make a united kingdom., draw a line under the kings of Old and their seat in Voldar.

He might also want to put himself on a different level to King Thar - by making his capital in the Midlands, on Santharia's most major river he shows that he Unites all the tribes - Not just the northern ones as Thar did. A symbol of a new Southern Sarvonia if you would.

Rimmerins ring offers you the Perfect defensive site. If you fear uprisings from the Eyelians, you can easily use this site to control the surrounds, but to be honest, by the time Santhros is crowned I'm not sure this is an issue. Your at the heart of the country, the perpiheries become regions already loyal to you.

There are also strategic advantages I suppose. You want to keep an eye on the two largest Elf tribes, build a City on their doorstep.

Considering that Santhros is soo vital, I think it's shoking he remains so shrouded in mystry *looks at Arti* Get writing boy.


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« Reply #14 on: 16 June 2003, 00:58:00 »

I guess Wren's reasons are quite logical and well thought up. Also the times of Thar are long gone when Voldar was the capital of the north, and Santhala definitely lies very central and is wonderfully protected by the Rimmerins Ring (if the opportunities to access are guarded pretty well, that is).

And yeah, Thar and Santhros would need entries, I know, I know. Unfortunately there are other projects which draw away my ressources, namely the Nepris game project at the moment, where we need to make as much progress as we can handle till Humangus leaves for the military, so that we know where what kind of problems lie and what we should do against them till autumn. Maybe I can quench one of these two important kings in sometime, but no promise on that soon.

Hmmm... Maybe Thar would be even something for Curgan, as he has married him to Curogana... Need to ask him...


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/15/03 9:02 am
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