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Author Topic: -We have tribes- We have lots of them!  (Read 6142 times)
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #15 on: 16 June 2003, 02:52:00 »

Eh, partly ok but you should consider what loyal people do when you defy them. :)  
Usually a capital is founded within the core of the most support because it is the best defensive position when there are thousands f citzens who identify themself with the kingdom. Geographical position is secondary and you don't need to found a capital somewhere where it can be easily attacked. For that purpose you've armies and castles.

Anyway the problem is more that it does not quite fit to the Eyelians who are not described as very developed. You don't put your capital among "barbarians´" when your own people are more civilized. Just imagine where the whole trade goes, usually to the highly developed regions not to backwater lands.

It's more that Santhala should imo have more rational reasons to found a capital somewhere in the wilderness far of the erephorian power centres of Voldar  and Nyermersys.

The power distribution does not feel right to me, just yet. If that sounds too weird I'll try to explain further. ;)  


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Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 6/15/03 12:54 pm
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Wren
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« Reply #16 on: 16 June 2003, 07:59:00 »

Aye - but the capital ends up being Santhala, Santhros chooses it. There may have been problems in his choosing it, but he did anyway.....

So instead of looking for problems we have to look for the positives that would have influenced his desicion.

Stop making my life awkward will you! :P


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #17 on: 16 June 2003, 08:47:00 »

That is what I intent ... doh... ;)

I mean, it is for me not the question that Santhala became capital but imo we should be aware to create several incidents why it was chosen to be the one. It could mean that the human tribes had a great sanctuary there where they meet during the Sarvonian Wars to forge their alliances for their common cause or the Eyelians are a far more powerful tribe than we know. It just means that we should make some adjustments so it makes in a way more sense than just "That is the capital because Santhros said so". Actually we could say so when we wouldn't develop Caelereth in such detail but how things are I fear we have to try to take various things into account and engineer things in a way making Santhala a good choice as a capital.

And to make things awkard for you I fear another problem is also a bit the province borders as they ignore historical and ethnical ties to a great degree. While we can say that Santhros intended right that one must just imagine what problems would arose when we slice France and Germany (or England) in halves and merge it with other nations. It is in a way an artifical Balkanization and that would be rather unstable. Strange enough imo the problem there lies more that we have so few provinces because many small ones would be to centralize government while few big ones will just include many citizens of different heritage and race and thus would have a greater potential of conflict.

Hey, I made this thread because of such questions not to hassle someone but to maybe to just talk about beforehead because this can create a hell lot of inconsistencies the more detailed things get.

So I don't try to make life awkward for you, just think it important to make the world consistent.


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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #18 on: 16 June 2003, 12:14:00 »

a) Eyelians of the Santhros era of course are much more developed than Eyelians who settled thousands of years before in Sarvonia.

b) The power concentration to the north is definitely not good for Santhros, as he needs to show unity - and visible signs of unity. Voldar has been the great capitol for thousands of years, and a new era has to start.

c) The geographic aspect therefore is extremely important to have a counterweight to the power concentration up north, cause provinces far off often have a tendency to claim their indepenence when the hand of the king doesn't reach far enough. The north is in firm hands of the Erpheronians (Tharian kingdom), but the south needs to be stabilized.

d) The south also needs to be economically revived as the north is pretty much ahead. With a semi-occupation of the south in order to help people there with economical know-how and a better organized centralized trade system, people will see the advantages much faster.

e) Santhros does not really occupy a kingdom. He is with the people. He is a king of the people, and he goes there where the people are. Not to demonstrate power and oppress them, but to help them. Therefore Santhala is a communication center for the many different tribes of the southern region.

f) As Santhala was in fact another town before it became Santhala, you can still place sanctuaries etc. and whatever makes the city attractive in there.

g) And everything else Wren mentioned as well (good defensive position) etc.

And that the province borders contradict the old kingdom borders is intentional as well. The old kingdoms were split into further parts (duchies etc.) and the reorganization draws the border lines between these dutchies differently, but the provinces do not have as much power as the ancient kindgdoms (at least not in the initial concept at the time of Santhros) and so these divisions are mainly of administrative importance.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/15/03 8:14 pm
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #19 on: 16 June 2003, 14:29:00 »

I'm referring to the Eyelian tribe entry. They don't sound too established, still clanbased and stuff.

And about the power cocentration. It is not good nor bad, it is just there and cannot be simply ignored.

You have to think Santhros founded his capital in the center of Santharia. But when the power centers of trade and military lie in the north he's miles away from the most important territories of the whole kingdom. The farther the king is away from them the more independant they'll behave and other than the poorer southern regions they have the wealth to pay for this independance. Abandoning his homeland that way would definetely cause more than just a little hatred among the people there. They would be more likely to turn their back to a king that ignores his own people than the southern ones would do when they join him by free will.

Quote:
Santhros does not really occupy a kingdom. He is with the people. He is a king of the people, and he goes there where the people are.


When we take the amount of large cities as a slight indication that's the North.

Thus Santhala needs to be of tremendous importance to be more important than your own homeland.

How about that. The three southern woodelf tribes are the strongest and definetely the ones with most contact with humans. Maybe they demanded that the free races would have their governmental council closer to their own homes and not somewhere north. Still has a bit the taste of the Erepheronians feeling mistreated as the most important driving power in Santharia. Thus giving Santrhala further historical importance in the past would make it more explainable why that would be the place of choice for government.


About the provinces I meant. You've eight kingdoms and eight provinces but the provinces ignore the original borders of the kingdoms entirely (splitting some kingdoms in halves while merging others together). From an ethnical point of view that's not that good and from an administrative point of view you've not resolved much because you need as many province capitals as before with the kingdoms.


I know these might be annoying details but they get pretty important easily.


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #20 on: 18 June 2003, 05:40:00 »

Defensive position is not an important issue for a capital, you won't place it somewhere where your subjects will try to kill you anyway.

Quote:
There are also strategic advantages I suppose. You want to keep an eye on the two largest Elf tribes, build a City on their doorstep.


That's a good reason to crush it if it's in the way because some stupid moron started trouble with elves. :)

No I think it's the most logical when it were the elves that wanted the capital of a united kingdom out of the old walls of the Erepheronians and on neutral ground. Are the Eyelians known as Elffriends maybe? The whole United kingdom idea would be void if elves and humans do not agree here. It would as well if the elves stay unimpressed to the whole idea so they need to do some things to "guide" the humans on the right track. And in Voldar the Ererpheronian kings started two devastating wars between the two races...


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Wren
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« Reply #21 on: 21 June 2003, 14:37:00 »

Elves and humans are united and for the most part friendly at this point though....

If you want to make a united kingdom why not go to a part of Santharia where there is a dwarven population (west), Hobbits (Elverground) and Elves?

My point was that it allows you to keep an eye on these, to a certain extent, autonomous elements of the Kingdom, and to make sure they don't act outside the interests of Santharia either economically or in a military sense. Build a capital on the doorstep of all the major races and you can keep yourself in the loop as to what they are up to!


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #22 on: 23 June 2003, 09:52:00 »

The way you describe it it wouldn't be a very nice step by Santhros to put his capital there, more a provocation to have the elves under close surveillance. :

We have elves and humans both being rather independant and different in their thinking. You won't get these guys into one kingdom if it is not in the mutual interest of both and thus the elves would want the Santharian king under close surveillance and not the other way around. Would elves really trust a human king when they couldn't ensure that his decision would at least have some elven sense in it? In Voldar a human king could do as he likes because he is in the heart of human territory. Elves wouldn't like that idea, I think.

In that matter Santhala is far more neutral for a united kingdom of sorts. From Santhros' point of view it might have been also your point why he did so but do you think you could sell 'to keep them under close control' as a positive aspect to other races?

Also being friendly to each other does not mean to be willing to give up influence. That's the current dillemma of Europe.Of course we are all friends, that's not the problem, but the hard work is currently to convince each other that giving up independance in certain aspects does not mean giving up your own interests.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #23 on: 23 June 2003, 10:00:00 »

As you can see there's no trouble why maybe Santhros did choose Santhala but there need to be also reasons why the other factions do so because Santharia is/was and never will be an absolutistic monarchy. That would hardly work even if Santhros and all kings after him were "full-blooded" halfelves. :)

btw: I'd see it good if the elven Ránn would also reside in New-Santhala with the Santharian king, otherwise you'll always end up with two power centers, one for the humans and one for the elves. Don't know if that is planned anyway though. ;)  

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