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Author Topic: Pinn Quest in progress  (Read 10021 times)
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« on: 20 June 2003, 14:10:00 »

I've started with writing the dialogue lines for the Pinn quest... You have to think about various different states of quest stages the player can be currently in like (or not in yet), and still get the correct answer... It's not easy to think about everything, but with such a typical quest we might get these issues resolved hopefully so that the dialogue handling in relation to quests can be clarified.

I'll post the new lines of the Pinn quest tomorrow and will point out what we need to do where concerning scripts so that everything works correctly according to the different quest branches. Once this is approved (or changes and rewrites are necessary), then other quests should be able to follow this dialogue scheme without any major problems.

Stay tuned...


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« Reply #1 on: 21 June 2003, 10:04:00 »

Ok, here's an outline how I think that dialogues need to be written concerning quest design and what LT needs to be aware of...

We've already stated that the dialogue of Ilbeth Derkhan has a script when displaying the GETPINN_YES keyword, which sets Quest 1 to status 2.

Now let's see what is necessary from Pinn's side to continue with the quest. I put in the keyword's here chronologically:

Keyword: QUEST_1_2
Text: ...
Answer(s): "Pinn, I've talked with your mommy... She said you should head back home and fetch something to eat!" (leads to HOME)

As you can see, I've given the keyword already an indicator concerning at which quest step we are at the moment. Text is not necessary at all, only a point where to start the dialogue. Which means: Once the player got the quest from Ilbeth and meets Pinn again, then the program needs to check when the talk starts with Pinn what the status of the quest 1 is. Depending on this result either the keyword answer to QUEST_1_2, QUEST_1_3 or no answers at all need to be displayed as well.

Note: This check is only then necessary if the "known"-flag of Pinn is true if the dialogue is started (again). If the player hasn't talked to Pinn before at all, but got the quest to get him, then you first need to get as far in the dialogue with Pinn until you know him. Then, at the next opportunity, the quest-related query needs to determine what additional question to add to the questions pools. Note that if a "locked question" is displayed while the known-flag is set (e.g. something you have to answer with yes/no)  then the quest-related question will appear one round later.

Ok... Once that the QUEST_1_2 question is displayed there may be a bit of talk between the player and Pinn until the next quest step comes into play. Like this:

HOME
Text: Pinn looks at you doubtfully. "No, I won't go home," he says shortly and continues playing with his ship.
Answer(s): "Why's that you don't want to go home, Pinn? Your mom surely has cooked a good meal I wouldn't want to miss..." (leads to HOME_WHY)

HOME_WHY
Text: "Well..." Pinn looks around and utters some awkward sounds. "Uhm... Ehm... - It's because of... of the ball!" he admits finally.
Answer(s): "What ball do you speak of? What's the problem with this ball?" (leads to BALL_LOST)

BALL_LOST
Text: Suddenly everything pours out of Pinn. He gets up and starts talking. "Could you... could you help me?" he asks with questioning eyes. "I... I have lost the ball... It fell into the sea when I played with Mimi, and now I can't reach it anymore... Dad only finished it yesterday, making it just for me, and now I've already lost it. He won't make anything for me anymore! - But it's still there! I just can't reach it..." His face brightens. "But maybe you can, #PY#!" Pinn jumps up and down excitedly.
Answer(s): "Where exactly did you lose the ball?" (lead to BALL_WHERE)

BALL_WHERE
Text: "It's up the shore... Just a few peds north... I'm sure you'll find it! - Will you help me?" Pinn asks pleadingly.
Answer(s): "I'll see what I can do." (leads to HELP_YES)
"I'm sorry, but I have other things to do." (leads to HELP_NO)

Ok, we've come to a crossroads here, and we need to be prepared for both cases. Let's say the player decides not to help Pinn. In this case we need to guarantee that he still can continue the quest at a later time in the game, and that it isn't lost forever once and for all. - I propose to just handle this with an additional quest status.

Let's say status of quest 1 set to 3 means he has denied it.
Let's say status of quest 1 set to 4 means he has accepted it.

If the player has denied it and returns to Pinn, the program checks again the current quest status, finds 1-3 is active and will display the answers to QUEST_1_3.

Keyword: QUEST_1_3
Text: ...
Answer(s): "About the ball you're missing..." (leads to BALL_MISSING)

continued this looks like this:

BALL_MISSING
Text: "Yes? Will you get it for me now?" Pinn eyes you hopefully.
Answer(s): "I'll see what I can do." (leads to HELP_YES)
"I'm sorry, but I have other things to do." (leads to HELP_NO)

As you can see, this leads the dialogue back to the decision (the answers are the same).

The other possibility is that the player accepts. If he says yes, then the dialogue continues with:

HELP_YES
Pinn smiles all over his face. "Please, please! I'm sure you can get it! Please, please try!"

And the dialogue is currently at an end, which means: The quest has been given, status is at 4.

Assuming now the player gets the ball (quest status will be 5 in this case already), then the whole scheme (check what quest status, display keyword etc.) will continue as described, only that the QUEST_1_5 will be displayed or not.

However, Pinn needs to be prepared for all quest possibility, and the one we haven't thought about yet is QUEST_1_4. Which means: Player got the quest, and then decides to talk to Pinn again without having solves the quest yet.

This would look like this in dialogue form:
Keyword: QUEST_1_4
Text: ...
Answer(s): "About the ball you're missing..." (leads to BALL_WORKING)

BALL_WORKING
Text: "Yes? Do you have it already?" Pinn asks.
Answer(s): "Sorry, but I'm still not done. But I promise to get your ball back." (WORKING_YES)
"Seems I can't get it." (WORKING_NO)

And for both options you get a response from Pinn (without any further answers):

WORKING_NO
Text: Pinn drops his head. "But there must be a way..." he whispers to himself.

WORKING_YES
Text: "Ok, I'm waiting then."

----

That's it basically. I guess all possibilities are covered here in this proposal. Plan is to only send you the quest related XMLed-keywords, which - in combination with the final quest definition according to the template - will help you to determine how to integrate it by looking at the keywords only. Let me know if this is ok with you, Humangus, or if you can think of an easier way.


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« Reply #2 on: 22 June 2003, 08:29:00 »

I 've been thinking about the integration of quest logic into the XML dialogue docs. I thnink it is better to use <option> tags that will have a quest step requirement before they can be added to the pool.

e.g <option target="something" quest="QUEST_1_2">some text</option>

This option can be added at any part of the dialogue and will be shown only if the player is at step 2 of quest 1. The target of the option can lead to keywords and topics that otherwise are not accessible during the main course of the dialogue.

All quest related options can be very easilly added to the <start> tag which means they will be activated but they will not be accessible (added to the pool) until the required quest steps are reached.

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The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

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« Reply #3 on: 22 June 2003, 16:14:00 »

Slowly I'm believing that doing the exams in quantum mechanics was easier, LOL.

*Reassures herself, that if she has passed the tests in quantum mechanics(YES) she will pass this as well*

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« Reply #4 on: 24 June 2003, 11:20:00 »

Ok... So do I get this right if I convert the example above simply to:

<start>
<text>As you approach, the little blonde-haired kid turns away from you, hiding its toy from view. Seems like he is not very fond of talking to strangers.</text>
<option target="HOME" quest="QUEST_1_2">"Pinn, I've talked with your mommy... She said you should head back home and fetch something to eat!"</option>
<option target="BALL_MISSING" quest="QUEST_1_3">"About the ball you're missing..." </option>
<option target="BALL_WORKING" quest="QUEST_1_4">"About the ball you're missing..." </option>
</start>

... and add the targeted keywords below as nodes just like I do with all other keywords? This wouldn't be too much trouble as I could just go through all keywords starting with "QUEST_" and collect them at the start keyword. And putting it in the START node only suffices? Well, fine with me.

But I'd need to mark somewhere as well that the quest status has changed (details on what items the player gets or what items he/she doesn't have after a keyword can be found in the quest definition script anyway). But in which XML tag should I mark that a quest step changes (or that other variables etc. need to be set aside from the quest definitions)?

Just confirm and/or specify, and I'll see to adjust the XML export to these needs:D  


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/23/03 19:21
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« Reply #5 on: 25 June 2003, 03:42:00 »

Yes, this is what I think is best. Put all quest related options at the start.

For the quest details though (items removed etc) I don't think is a good idea to add these details in the dialogue itself. These XML documents describe the dialogue and it will be best not to cram too many details in the dialogue. Quest details can be in a separate document in natural language. Since there will not be any automatic generation due to the complex of the matter there is no reason to describe a quest in a structured format. Once I understand how the quest goes I will integrate it.

So, in the XML docs just handle the quest dialogue and give the quest details for each step in a separate document. This would be best for me.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




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« Reply #6 on: 25 June 2003, 11:19:00 »

Good, good. So I will adjust my XML export function to that then.

And I will write additional notes either in the quest definition or point certain keywords of importance (those which require scripted actions) out seperately as well.

Good to have these things clarified. Definitions make the life of a game designer much easier, though not less stressful:D  

---

Ok, just adjusted the XML export... Works fine already:)

Question, Humangus: If I export an already existing dialogue anew (if there are new keywords) do you want the whole thing or just the new keywords (or respectively those which have changed, cause older ones could have changed as well of course).


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/24/03 20:41
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« Reply #7 on: 26 June 2003, 02:32:00 »

I think it's best to send it all again. Changing the dialogue would be more difficult and perhaps confusing.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




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« Reply #8 on: 26 June 2003, 15:32:00 »

Ok, Pinn quest done and sent... As I've stated in the mail already: It gets a bit more complicated and challenging now with this quest, but if it all works, it should be fun;)


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« Reply #9 on: 03 July 2003, 10:23:00 »

Ahoy! Pinn Quest Integrated. Pinn and Ilbeth dialogues integrated as well. There are some general things I noticed though.

1) Pinn calls the merchant Uncle Tenni and Ilbeth says: Oh! that merchant ??? I mean if the merchant is Pinn's uncle shouldn't Ilbeth know him really good?

2) You mention in the description of that dish that it looks delicate. You meant delicious perhaps or delicate gets another meaning?

3) Room 162 is added twice. Room 162 is the room you get when you try to move south from the starting location and the room where you try to get Pinn's ball as well.

4) Finally. Where does the player get the net from? This should be part of the Quest Items right? Also give me a description of the net if not too much trouble.

That's all. After these issues (mainly the 4th) the new game version will ship 8)

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com

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« Reply #10 on: 03 July 2003, 11:45:00 »

Good, good... If there are no problems with the quest, others shouldn't be too difficult to add now as well, now that we know how precisely we can do them:)  - Looking forward to play the result!

Ok, some answers:

1) Well, I wrote "Uncle Tenni", because it is quite common among smaller children to call bigger people they know a bit better "uncle", without actually knowing what the word means. So that's just Pinn's way of expressing things. But we could add that for example to Ilbeth's dialogue - the player could ask Ilbeth abouth the "uncle"-thingy and get the answer I gave you here for example. I'll see to that.

2) Yeah, you're correct: "delicious" is the right word.

3) Also correct... Arti gets old and grey... Well, rename the "Shell Beach" Room 163 then, I'll update the map then.

4) I thought I had put it into the ducraer south of Terlano's house, but actually that was only a rope as I just saw. Well, I'll put a net in it as well and send you details this evening.

I'll also look through at least a few Talia rooms for the western part of the game and will include them as well...


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« Reply #11 on: 07 July 2003, 10:36:00 »

OK. I had some trouble with the quest but I finally got it as I always do. Hehehe ...

This is the link of the new version. Get it and test it good.

Latest Version of the Nepris Adventure

I discovered a bug with the journal display but don't pay too much attention.

I have also made some alterations to handle various stuff. For example if the player gets the ball but drops it somewhere he should no be able to tell Pinn about it and complete the quest.

Have fun and cheer up :D  

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com

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« Reply #12 on: 08 July 2003, 05:02:00 »

Just checked it in more detail at the midday break in my company...

It really is quite an adventure already to walk through all rooms and do everything which is possible, and the Pinn quest and the little other things like the deer pic and the snake options etc. already make it really interesting to play.

Some things I've noticed, though:

- At 1024x768: Journal Book doesn't resize for some reason (at least it didn't on my company computer, worked yesterday at my other one, with a higher resolution). Arrows, texts like Journal and Quests are in position, but the book background is not.

- Enter the House (Prosperous Farmhouse): Not possible with Numpad, also exiting.

- When going staight to Ilbeth without seeing Pinn first and she asks about Pinn, the option "Yeah sure, I've even talked to him. He's at the shore, just a bit to the south." is available.

- If you re-enter the room with the ball the conditional text about the ball being washed against the rocks should be displayed as well.

- If you talk to Terlano and at the beginning make clear that he should step aside, then Terlano quits the dialogue and you can't enter any productive dialogue again with him.

- I wonder if people actually can find the net and the rope, because the current way the "open the ducraer" is realized, the program doesn't inform you at all that there's something in there unless you look.

- Another description for the ball when in the sea would be good to have (realizable? could be another item?).

- I'm still not a friend of the automatic pick up-options upon examining. If I want to examine something, I don't want to pick it up, especially when I'm re-examining things the repeated question gets somewhat annoying. On the other hand it is currently not possible to "pick up" the ball, which is irritating as well of course.

- The USE command usually works the other way round... USE Net WITH Ball. But I see that you changed the program to make it fit by simply expanding the current USE command. I bit irritating though now.

- Quest Log: Hmmm... Currently this is all a replacement of the previous quest step text, which doesn't allow you to see e.g. from whom you got the quest etc.

- If you haven't picked up an unidentified item like the "blue flower" and you examine it, you get the identified name in the listbox to select.


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« Reply #13 on: 09 July 2003, 07:54:00 »

Some more things I found out today:

- After the short descriptions (after you re-enter a room) there should be line break as well between the text and the Exits list.

- When I talk to Ilbeth the name of the dialogue partner appears in yellow if I don't know her. Once she is known to me the name is displayed in white again. However, if I already know her and I talk again to her, the name is displayed in yellow. This seems to be Ilbeth specific.

- Is a sorting possible at the questions? Meaning: Those which are added in the last round should be always on top... Sometimes it happens that the new questions are placed on top, sometimes they are placed somewhere in the middle.

---

But in general I have to say that the game develops wonderfully. It really makes fun to discover all we've put into the game so far:D  - Great work!


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« Reply #14 on: 13 July 2003, 07:30:00 »

1)
Quote:
At 1024x768: Journal Book doesn't resize for some reason (at least it didn't on my company computer, worked yesterday at my other one, with a higher resolution). Arrows, texts like Journal and Quests are in position, but the book background is not.


Well, the more graphics we use in the game the more difficult it will be to adjust the display for different resolutions. I think we should stick to a single resolution. This will depend on the amount of graphics that we will use.

2)
Quote:
Enter the House (Prosperous Farmhouse): Not possible with Numpad, also exiting.


Why should it be possible? Once you enter the block with the house there is no clue where the house itself is in the block. So, it is natural that there should be a free form text for that purpose as it is now.

3)
Quote:
When going staight to Ilbeth without seeing Pinn first and she asks about Pinn, the option "Yeah sure, I've even talked to him. He's at the shore, just a bit to the south." is available.


Just tell me if you mean spoken to Pinn or get to know Pinn and I will fix it.

4)
Quote:
If you talk to Terlano and at the beginning make clear that he should step aside, then Terlano quits the dialogue and you can't enter any productive dialogue again with him.


I guess this is the way the dialogue itself is built since there are no other questions added to the pool. Not my mistake unless I overlooked something.

5)
Quote:
I wonder if people actually can find the net and the rope, because the current way the "open the ducraer" is realized, the program doesn't inform you at all that there's something in there unless you look.


As you enter the room the list with Items contains the ducraer. What do you mean? And the player should first know that a ducraer is a container. The rest is a matter of knowing how to use the interface. If you want to look into the container you use the "contents" button if it is already open. What's the problem here?

6)
Quote:
Another description for the ball when in the sea would be good to have (realizable? could be another item?).


Just give the description to me.

7)
Quote:
I'm still not a friend of the automatic pick up-options upon examining. If I want to examine something, I don't want to pick it up, especially when I'm re-examining things the repeated question gets somewhat annoying. On the other hand it is currently not possible to "pick up" the ball, which is irritating as well of course.


It should be irritating. Until the gamer finds the way to pick it up. When he can't pick it up while he should, the second thought would be to examine the item and get more information about it. The option then to grab it is just decoration. Besides, any item that is NOT static can be picked up. The same would happen to the ball if it was not static.

8 )
Quote:
The USE command usually works the other way round... USE Net WITH Ball. But I see that you changed the program to make it fit by simply expanding the current USE command. I bit irritating though now.


So "Use Net with Ball" is different than "Use Ball with Net? Besides, like I said, what if the user just wants to use something e.g. a lever without combining it? What should happen then? I don't find it irritating.

9)
Quote:
Quest Log: Hmmm... Currently this is all a replacement of the previous quest step text, which doesn't allow you to see e.g. from whom you got the quest etc.


We can then add additional entries, not update entries.

10)
Quote:
If you haven't picked up an unidentified item like the "blue flower" and you examine it, you get the identified name in the listbox to select.


Major issue here with other commands as well. I 'll try to fix it.

11)
Quote:
Is a sorting possible at the questions? Meaning: Those which are added in the last round should be always on top... Sometimes it happens that the new questions are placed on top, sometimes they are placed somewhere in the middle.


Currently it is not possible.You call it a question POOL not a question STACK anyway.

12 ) The rat you sent me is OK but the spider is still too dark. I had used the Auto-balance feature of the Photo-Editor before and I thought they were fine.

13 ) What 's going on with the recipe book? How will the player be able to look into it for recipies?  

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com

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