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Author Topic: Pinn Quest in progress  (Read 10226 times)
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #15 on: 13 July 2003, 11:43:00 »

1) Resolution: Well, sure, I don't refer to a higher resolution here, but to the standard one (I guess 1024x768 is standard, and if there are higher resolution you should limit the screen size maybe to 1024x768 ) . And it doesn't work for some reason at this standard resolution. Can it be that your resizing function fails if a vertical toolbar is displayed to the right of the screen and 1024x768 isn't recognized?

2) Hmmm... Yeah, you can interpret it this way as well. How about using "5" on the numpad for "enter" or "leave" then, and "+" and "-" for "up" and "down"? This way it is ensured that you can walk through the game with the numpad alone.

3) This refers to known, cause as long as you don't know Pinn's name you actually have no idea if he's the right one.

4) This is handled differently at my Dialogue Editor. As long as you don't know the guy, quit, and get back to him again, you start with the unknown keyword again, so the problem can't happen.

5) Yeah, that's exactly the problem. People don't realize that it's a container. Especially as it is not a container you can open & close, know what I mean (people would see it much easier if it was chest what to do)? We should think about a way to show the player immediately that there is something in the container when examining an open container and what there is in it, e.g. giving him the option immediately when the player looks at it to check the contents.

6) Will do.

7) Typical example of player annoyance: Player wants to pick up ball, Pinn says no. Player then examines ball: Again is confronted with the question to pick up ball. Tries again of course (cause now the program reacts differently by showing the player an option, so maybe player can pick up ball now). Pinn again says no. Player questions himself what's this for.

8 )  Well, "Use door with key" is strange, "use key on door" is logical. Let me know a game where you actually have the first case realized this way.

"Use lever" (with no addition) is of course also possible, cause you don't need to combine things. These are just two different usage-possibilities.

But if it's too complicated to change that, I can live with that as a programmer. Players might have a problem, though, to understand what they need to do how.

9) Ok.

10) Ok.

11) Nothing serious, though, at the moment.

12) Propose to adjust you monitor settings, Humangus! It appears they are way too dark, check out this example. At 1.4 you should see the wall perfectly. If you have Photoshop installed, you can calibarte your monitor with it correctly, maybe other paint programs can do that as well. Especially Santharian artists have to take care of these settings to get colors right, and as I've calibrated my monitor correctly, I assume you're too much on the darker side.

13) Suggest USE BOOK will do. Then the text starting from at("Upon expecting the book more closely you see that there are some bookmarks to the most often used recipes. You may want to take a look at any of these recipes:") should be displayed.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/12/03 19:44
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« Reply #16 on: 14 July 2003, 13:56:00 »

Hey,I used windows and a dell :rolleyes

Some of my comments may be the same as Artimidors,I just played it through and wrote down, what I found.

Is there a note I can read? (First Quest)
Map isn't showing,should it?
River Name
Coming from the south,I talked to Pinn,but not about his ball.So I should not know,that it is Pinns when examine it.
We could add to the Andulf dialog under the point "Ask about" the keywords Pinn, and maybe Ilbeth,if Andulf tells the player, to whom Pinn belongs. If the player haven't met Pinn yet,he will not ask.
I think it is a bit strange, that you can enter Andulf's house without asking him or his wife. Maybe we could ask him for allowance to enter it to get a mug of water and then the possibility appears to enter the house?Or you change the dialog so that Meghrim is in the house and gives you the water(short dialog)
The first rooms of the path to the tomb give still a direction "runs to the west", "and east to Nepris" is missing.

Path/Meadow to the tomb:
Meadow south,item blue flower: EXAMINE: Cerubell flower appears, should be still blue flower,as long as the player hasn't got the info from the herbwoman. Clicking on Cerubell flower, nothing appears.
Same with meadow north with yellow flower and lavender flower. It looks not good,that yellow flowers appears already in the text twice, should only be visible if clicking EXAMINE.
Lampstalk meadow: The name should not appear in the first text, not in EXAMINE now either
Snake meadow ..easescathe shouldn't be named here as well, not before a stay with the herbwoman
No roomdescription when following the snake to the forest (Room?)


Hmm, what about a hint,that there is something in the Ducraer? I wouldn't have looked for a content,if I haven't known that there is something.Not every player is experienced!

When entering the farmhouse again and Pinn sits at the table eating, the TALK option still tells me, he is playing with his toy.
(Hmm,have I missed a update,where is the cookerybook or was it just a proposal to put it somewhere?)
Can I add another char if I have started already with playing?

+runs back to her Mac+

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« Reply #17 on: 15 July 2003, 13:40:00 »

- Yes, there is a note you can read, just check your inventory, Talia!

- Map: not map there yet:b

- River name: changed in next version to "Toran's Creek"

- Yes, got a point here with Pinn's Ball. Will change that.

- Yes, quest-related questions will be added at other characters as well. As the player can't ask everybody about everything, we'll have to limit it a bit, but if possible we'll see that you get support of other NPCs at various quests whereever we can.

- Andulf just stands around in an undeveloped area... He'll be inside the house, I assume. But we have to ensure that you can move wherever you want to, nobody will object if you go straight into someone's bedroom e.g. It's a game, and we can't be 100% realistic.

- Yeah, there are some identification problems, indeed. Humangus is aware of that already.

- Yeah, the Pinn description needs to be adjusted. Will take care of that as well.

- Cookery book in preparation for next version. No cookery book yet in the current version.

- No, you can't add a char during the game... What for, BTW? There's aren't even monsters in yet of which you can be afraid... Feeling lonely? :lol

But during the game you will have the opportunity to ask people to accompany you on quests, and some will actually join you and support you in the game:)  


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« Reply #18 on: 16 July 2003, 10:01:00 »

@Talia: Artimidor has covered me 100%. We should not add too many details. This is for dialogues as well. "We can't be 100% realistic"

- Alright. I can calibrate my monitor but we can't actually ask the players to correctly callibrate their monitors as well before playing. So I still suggest that it is better that the images are a bit brighter to cover all situations than darker which will result in missing information. So we are sure that images will show all details in every monitor adjustment.

- What is a ducraer anyway? :   I thought it was something like a chest. And what do you suggest for the contents.

-Pick up message adjusted. Now it is first handled by the location. So there will be non-static items that you will not be able to pick up but in the next release.

- A lever and a door are in location. The player carries a key in the backpack. Presses the Use button. What should the list contain in order to cover all situations as you imagine it?

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




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« Reply #19 on: 16 July 2003, 12:27:00 »

Calibration: Sure, you in general won't have that brightness problem, the rat and the spider pic were both taken from a larger, very dark picture where they played a minor role and adjustments were necessary. Just don't overdue the adjustments, so that the pic looks unreal.

Ducraer: Ah yes, we definitely have to take care of such cases when we use Santharian expressions which the player's won't understand immediately. Therefore I also corrected the kuatu to "kuatu squirrel", thus players will get the idea. A ducraer is a small boat BTW.

Use: Well, to make the difference between the two kinds of "use" possibilities explicit in the form of 2 different buttons would make it very transparent if you ask me. Graphical games which show the inventory and the gaming area on one screen (like for example Ultima VI + VII) don't have that problem, cause you can click first on the game screen, or first at the inventory item  and it is clear whether you want to press a lever or use the key on the door.

In mainly textbased games I've seen it therefore often realized with two different buttons cause you lack the graphical reference where you can immediately go at the graphic and the game interprets what you want. In textbased games it's mainly "Use" and "Operate". You "Use a key to open a door" and you then "Operate" the door to open it. One button with two functions may be confusing if they are not obvious immediately.


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« Reply #20 on: 19 July 2003, 02:49:00 »

About the updates you sent me.

1 ) Has the quest changed so that the ball is not accessible before getting the quest? I don't think this is necessary. We can just change Pinn's Ball to Ball as well.

2 ) I don't see it necessary to update Andulf's Dialogue. This is a village. Everybody knows each other. What will happen when there are 30 NPC's. Will the player be able to ask about each of the villagers to everyone? Huge mess.

3 ) About the kitchen. When you exit the room Pinn goes to his bedroom? Is this the update? Will this happen even if you have not spoken to Ilbeth?

4 ) Gif images cannot be displayed in the Image control I'm using. So you must send me either jpg or bmp images.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




www.legendarytales.com

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« Reply #21 on: 19 July 2003, 07:32:00 »

1) No, the quest hasn't changed. I mainly wanted to avoid problems, which also happen in commercial products: That the player solves a quest without actually getting the quest. E.g. you could bring the ball to Pinn without having talked to him at all. I don't know if LT would handle the situation correctly, but in order to be on the safe side, I changed this part. Also I think that this forces the player to actually search the ball - cause he just can't find the ball right from the start, and the player actually needs to re-visit the location. It's much more fun to discover something somewhere which wasn't there at the beginning. Adds "life" to the story.

2) Sure. Never planned to have more people except Andulf and his wife who could answer any questions about Pinn. Reason to have these two, though: Ilbeth said Pinn can be found in the south, and as Andulf's house is the only one which lies south as well, I guess it's ok to add the option to ask him about Pinn.

3) Uhmm... Yes, that's it. Pinn is just decoration if you return with the quest done, and his only function is to sit there. As soon as you have been in the room seeing him sit there, he needs to be off asap, cause he can't eat for the rest of the game. So get him into his room as soon as you can.

However, small correction: Suggest to put

Exit Room [While Quest_1_6 or Quest_1_7 is active]
[Move Pinn to Room 57_05]

into room 57 instead not in 57-01, otherwise you might go from the kitchen to Pinn's room and he has suddenly materialized without passing you by...

4) GIFs: Ok, not much of a  problem. Will add wood background and a nice drop shadow effect to such pics, this makes them even more effective.


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« Reply #22 on: 19 July 2003, 11:09:00 »

1 ) It is fun but it makes this quest almost impossible to solve. Believe me that this is a very difficult quest from the point of the player. He has to use an item found in one of 400 locations without any clue. The ball is in a location not directly north from where Pinn is at the moment so the player must also do some turns. He has to revisit a location although he will know that he has not encountered anything making it more difficult to visit that location again. All these things make this quest very difficult.

Besides, I have already handled this situation. If you first get the ball and you go talk to him the dialogue goes normally until he tells you about the ball. Then you get the option to offer the ball to him immediately (if the ball is already found in the backpack. )

So I don't think any more changes are necessary except for the description of the ball and the name.

Perhaps the ball and Pinn should be at the same location and the net at some place nearer. This will make this quest easier.

2 ) But as you move north from south you can't miss Pinn. Anyway, it is not difficult to add this option which should not be present if you have met Pinn I suppose.

3 ) We get into too much "thinking" here which is not good. It will make things much complex. Pinn can't eat all the time, Ilbeth can't cook all the time, fishermen can't fish all the time ... We should not be concerned with these details. These are just decorations.

And the other option not to let Pinn bump into your back while going to his bedroom is again too much.

Perhaps we can move Pinn as soon as the player enters the kitchen. Then Pinn finishes eating and goes to his room. Besides there is some time until you get to the farmhouse since you tell Pinn to go home.

4 ) Great.

Quote:
The great successful men of the world have used their imaginations. They think ahead and create their mental picture, and they go to work materializing that picture in all its details, filling in here, adding a little there, altering this bit and that bit, but steadily building, steadily building.

-Robert Collier




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« Reply #23 on: 22 July 2003, 09:53:00 »

1) Well, in a role playing game most objects usually can't be found only once in the game, but in dozens. And fishing nets will be one of those items you will find in nearly every house in this game which happens to take place in a fishing village.

The placement of the ball in the water right from the start takes away the searching fun and the "Aha! - I've found it!"-experience. With other words: It's boring. A living environment is always preferable over a static one.

Pinn BTW tells you precisely that it's north, and it is north. I don't think that any player will have problems finding it. Playing means at least a bit of thinking.

The quest also is not yet playtested. Adjustments of too difficult quests can still be made, but I personally think that it absolutely would suffice if the player talks to Pinn again and at the second time Pinn is more precise where the ball can be found and maybe give hints at a net or something. If the player is desperate he'll usually does 2 things: a) search the environement, try things again several times (You get the message: "You can't reach it with your hands alone..." or something = hint!) and b) Talk again to the person who handed out the quest. And c) We can write an additional hint in the quest log. I think there are a lot of possibilities to make difficult quests easier by simply adding a line here or there.

Walking through the game completely without at least a bit of necessary thinking in my point of view is not desireable. Placing the items right in front of the nose of the player neither. The more twists and turns a single quest can offer (without a high general difficulty and the possibility to get hints from asking again and investigating the environment just a bit), the more fun.

3) I guess it is important to move some characters around a bit. This doesn't have much of complexity. If you plan it right from the start, you only have to take care of that the descriptions of the characters and the repeatable dialogue parts aren't place-specific, and that's it. Then you can shove people around with the engine, and the player will feel to see a good old friend again when the character is met again somewhere else.

I personally see only advantages in the Pinn movements, especially if you move him once you're outside the house. Cause for quest number 2 you will have to go in and out of the house several times (Ilbeth's husband works at the outside). So if you do the Pinn quest first it (likely, as you have met him already) is also likely to encounter him again in the trapdoor room later, cause you need to deal with the rats.  If you talk to him then you're rewarded with another little quest, the Fetch-Ship quest. As you can see Pinn has a life on his own already if he has three different defined locations, and this is an important detail for a believeable world.

I think it's pretty easy to realize these things through script as well, BTW, so why not do them?

BTW: I heard you've graduated by now, Humangus, so congratulations from me again here officially on the board:D  Good that graduated Software Engineers also do something really useful like coding LT engines:lol

I also read at your last mail that another version will be coming soon, so I'll see if I can quench in some more Talia-rooms and send them to you in time;)  


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/21/03 17:56
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« Reply #24 on: 22 July 2003, 14:50:00 »

Humangus, I agree with Art, don't make it too easy. The game isn't this big yet  for not being able to look for a net. However for an unexperienced player like I am, a hint, that you can actually look into something (ducraer)is helpful (not a must though).
I know you miss the fights, but see it as an enhancement (?) of the game if they are coming later.

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« Reply #25 on: 23 July 2003, 02:47:00 »

Quote:
Good that graduated Software Engineers also do something really useful like coding LT engines


What?

www.legendarytales.com

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« Reply #26 on: 23 July 2003, 02:51:00 »

Quote:
Good that graduated Software Engineers also do something really useful like coding LT engines


What is this?

www.legendarytales.com

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #27 on: 23 July 2003, 03:31:00 »

Hey, that was just a joke!

I think it's a much bigger step towards the future of mankind to develop good games instead of boring applications like e.g. the sales management systems I'm coding myself;)  


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/22/03 11:32
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« Reply #28 on: 23 July 2003, 15:18:00 »

"I think it's a much bigger step towards the future of mankind to develop good games instead of boring applications like e.g. the sales management systems I'm coding myself"


hear, hear!! hehe... yeah... I really admire you Art. really. I had my first day in the office today, and after having spent 7 hours sitting in from of that damn pc, and with the prospect of having to start learning Labview to pragram some GUI and the rest of some program, I'm really starting to appreciate your project even more. You have some superhuman powers though, probably.... dont you? ;)

if you wonder what i'm doing in the office programming GUI's - I just started my practical training period, which is part of my study. and now I have to find a 3d rendering engine, preferably in a form of some dll, program an interface around it and make this whole thing animate a model of a human, according to some data, that is being fed to it in real time, of movements of the body of a subject human.... bearing in mind that I never have worked in 3d, or used programming languages tougher then pascal, I admit I'm a bit worried about my possible failure.... *gulp*
plus it's summer, and half of the staff is (going) on vacation,...
at least its good to know you folks arent :D  form what I hear Koldar is burried in work as well... good luck man!


       
     
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« Reply #29 on: 24 July 2003, 12:53:00 »

Well, fortunately Humangus covers the programming side excellently, and I'm currently mainly game designer and organizer of the whole thing;)  It all takes time and requires some sacrifices on other dev things from my side, but we only have till November when Humangus' military service will start. We should get as far as possibile till then. But your wonderful pictures help a lot to get on with the project:D  And yeah, managing updates on the site (plus special things like the cookery book) as well plus having a fulltime job indeed requires a bit of superhuman powers I guess... :lol

The project you have to do sounds interesting as well, Faugar, though I have no idea what Labview actually is... Hope some guys there can help you a bit. Nobody is perfect when you start with programming, it all lasts a while to understand what a language can do and what not - and also finding out who can help you when and where;)  


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