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Author Topic: Sorren/Santharia - how might this work.  (Read 17798 times)
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Dala Valannia
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« Reply #15 on: 30 June 2001, 01:44:00 »

<<Therefore I think it to be essential for the game itself to try to reach this depth as well. If players in Sorren realize that they could develop to members like those we have now.>>
But will they realise it? If I understand you correctly, Art, what you mean by depth to be achieve in the game, is for the Sorren players to have a full understanding of Santharia? In that case, I agree totally that the best way for Santharia and Sorren to reach the highest potential together would be to make sure that players are required to have a basic knowledge of Santharia before they begin any role-playing. Which brings us back to the original problem - therefore, can we have your approval and consent, Art, since essentially you would be the point of liaison with Sorren, that at least SOME, and they won't be unreasonable of course!, ground-rules be set down if the joining takes place? And those who don't abide by them will be reviewed for banning? Sorry if I seem to be harping on this issue but your previous post was a little ambiguous to me and I'm not sure if you do agree to the proposal of laying out game rules.

I know some role-players might view rules and regulations as a killjoy but in the long-run, I feel this would be the best way to maintain Santharia's identity and integrity while keeping the enjoyment for the game. I mean we lay out certain rules, and those who don't like it can opt not to play, simple as that. Rather than they come in and are dissatisfied with aspects of Santharia and try to radically modify it but are told they can't. Weeding out people who are not serious BEFORE they start role-playing sounds practical and can minimize a lot of unnecessary unpleasantness that may arise, people usually don't like being told what they can't do when they're set on doing it....but then, maybe that's just me ;)  

I hope this isn't turning out to be a war where battle lines are drawn!! Thanks, Art, for not treating my ramblings as the mutterings of a discontented malcontent! I also hope you don't mind me speaking out like this! I really mean no ill-will! Like I said, I've become quite attached to Santharia and its people and am really concerned about the directions it'll be taking in the future. I truly would hate it for some black-sheep role-player to completely twist Santharia into a hotbed of sex, sin and violence, in a manner of speaking :lol   Something like that might be a small, isolated incident, but nevertheless it would spoil things for me, my pleasure in being a Santharian, considerably :(  

.....P.S I really am long-winded, aren't I! I seem to be enforcing the stereotype that females can talk a man to death given a chance! :lol   My deepest apologies if I'm boring anyone!  

Edited by: Dala Valannia at: 6/29/01 10:48:03 am
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #16 on: 30 June 2001, 15:44:00 »

*hehe* No, don't worry, Dalá - your comments and concerns are appreciated, wouldn't want to miss them!

As for the question: Will they realize it? - Don't know. All I can say is that it may be worth a try from my point of view before we can judge where the project heads. And that we maybe shouldn't be too severe at predefining rules etc. (at least a game is a game), but you're right though: There should be some clear pre-conditions set up before everybody takes what he/she/it wants from Santharia and heads off towards stupid player killing. This would have nothing to do with epic role playing which I envision for Santharia. Still, this would be quite a task to determine what role players have to accept and where the player's freedom begins etc. but it would be one of the most important issues to discuss.

Anyway. I haven't heard much of Nate in the past days, but I hope he's following this thread and will answer to the uttered positions from his point of view. Would be very interesting and decisive on the matter to hear his opinion.

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Nate of Sorren
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« Reply #17 on: 30 June 2001, 16:18:00 »

Yes I'm working with a 3D engine now to discover the development time and resources needed.  There will still be some issue I know we will need to work out Sorren side.

The strategy will not end.  The idea of Sorren is many games tied into the same world.  So like there might be one program that allows the world to be created and another for players.

From what I have been experimenting with so far it looks as if the framework of the game will work something like this...

The world is divided into geographic zones.  The zones around the current one you are in are downloaded in the background if your character has never been in that zone before on a limited bandwidth basis.  The more you explore the more levels load.  I'm wanting to be able to allow builders to build a zone (one of these levels) and then admins check it out and seamlessly tie it in to the rest of the world assigning a certain range prior to hitting the entrance that the level gets queued for download.

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Nate of Sorren
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« Reply #18 on: 30 June 2001, 16:47:00 »

In response to the question about using Santharian characters in the game.

I haven't decided exactly how to work everything in.  I will have to discuss ideas with you all for most of it.  There will be a lot of cross involvement if we decide to do this.

I cannot handle building a site like santharia.com in which people can interact with one another in order to develop the world.

Some of the things we may look into is the ability for 3D artists to have their models displayed on the Santharia webpage next to creature descriptions.

I'm not the person making this decision.  I would need to discuss this with art, but in my opinion I don't see playing characters that have been previously created in santharia as a good thing except for the creators of those characters.  Keep in mind the process will be evolutionary not revolutionary.  I don't have 20 3d artists, 10 programmers, 2 sound guys, and lead for each team.  Reason being that I desire to keep the game free, but I feel that a 2 year evolutionary development can get us a nice and fun 3d mmorpg.

I'm going to touch on something else I read higher on the message boards briefly.  Sorren is not another online web based strategy game.  I created the strategy game using the same database to house an rpg the heroes in The Lands of Sorren will be playable as rpg characters in The Heroes of Sorren.  I made a decision to work with Santharia rather than one of the other rpg dream sites.  I don't believe Santharia is just another of those many fantasy (ad

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Nate of Sorren
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« Reply #19 on: 30 June 2001, 17:09:00 »

This is in response to the concept of a merger.  This isn't what's happening.  I guess we can look at it more as a pooling of talents to better a world.  I'll elaberate more below.

I have had many programmers come to me excited about helping to improve Sorren making little progress.  I'm happy to see what Art has pulled off here.  You have excellent cooperation.  That's the kind of help that's useful.  Not the kind that disappears.

Art mentioned a calendar system, units of measure, necessary maps.  These are the things that Sorren needs the most, he hit the nail on the head.  These are also many of the things that Santharia needs.  Why do the same thing twice?  In addition to this Santharia already has much of what's needed.  Beasts and races for example.  Granted I may not be able to create all the races at the start or even make them all playable.  We would probably start by creating a small town with only humans with a few beasts outside the town.

Upgrading the previous example we might find a way for players in game to pick up an object and move it somewhere else.  Allow a person with no programming or art experience to decorate a house, or market with the details needed to make it look "right".  Having good communication to everyone will also be nice like if a builder needs an apple for a fruit stand how can they get it?

Now back to the first paragraph.  This isn't a merger.  Santharia doesn't have to be changed to fit Sorren, and Sorren doesn't have to be molded to fit Santharia.  But sharing the same resources is beneficial to both.  As well as sharing the same applications.

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« Reply #20 on: 30 June 2001, 17:43:00 »

In response to these demands of Sorren mentioned above...

>1. this must be ROLE playing, not some hack'n slash 3d game, RP must be done, and thse who dont MUST be removed promptly and efficently, I will not have my creations, or arts, or dala's, or koldars, that have taken hours of our time reduced to little modles for some wanna be hero to hack up without appreicating the story behind it.

>2. Applicants Must go through a short world getting used to training, so they have at least a basic idea before they start RolePlaying(see demand 1)

>3. this not interfir with our creativity, I know that things such as measurement and currency are important but so are anchent heros, or varios wines, and things like that...


This is an example of what must not happen.  The good little list of demands.  I have heard Sorren players mention things like.

Example 1. As long as Santharia agrees to not create more then a human race then I would say okay.  But additional races is just so dumb.

Example 2. They can't have magic in Santharia, what's going to happen next, create little pixies to sprinkle pixie dust everywhere.

Well I believe very strongly that these decisions aren't made like this.  I can say what my vision is for Sorren.  But I can't guarantee to any demands.  The final product will probably not be my vision.  Art, Xenos, others will dramatically effect what is in the final product.  But we get closer to the goal i'm not going to get lost in technicalities, and I'm not going to say Santharia has to be a certain way.  That's not my place.

Now to answer the specific items as best as I can from my current vision.

1.  I see some players interacting with Sorren as a hack/slash game because that's all that some players know.  I plan on monitoring the game well, and that means approving character names for them to level past a certain point.

Keep in mind I have a strong background in non-graphical mud playing.

2.  I would like to see a newbie training area.  One in which the character will be taught about proper role playing.  I also want to see little details added to the game to make it more adventurous for the "true" roleplayer.  When I say that I mean maybe going so far as to code in dynamic quests that take many clues to solve.  A hard quest may involve learning an Elvish language from instructional books found in the game.  I know this may be a bit elaborate right now, but in a couple of years it will seem closer to reality.

3.  I came to Santharia because of the creativity.  I don't plan on making a list of rules you must adhere to.  Keep in mind that both Art and I have made quite a few accomplishments that have taken reasoning, teamwork, insight, creativity, and dedication.  After talking with him I don't feel he is going to wreck my current view of Sorren.  Although I am sure the view will change.  Change isn't always good or bad.  But change will always exist.  I just help to guide it in the direction I believe myself and players will enjoy seeing it go.  And yes I give your opinions with the same value I do player suggestions.

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Xenos Ravenbeack
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« Reply #21 on: 30 June 2001, 20:07:00 »

acceptable... I will contue on my present coarse of fleshing out R'unorian history... I will be very interested in seeing 3d lurkers flying through the sky when the time comes

oh, please show me those who dared to interfir whith my creativity and tried to limit us here at santh... we have some things to discuss



good day I wich you luck in your endevor

but we're watching you... never forget that

(sorry if I'm sounding like a warped dictator again... for my other project, please nate don't take anything as a threat, or hostility, I'm just wierd)

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Nate of Sorren
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« Reply #22 on: 30 June 2001, 22:48:00 »

I won't take it to heart.  Just keep in mind the game may not go like you or I intended.  Art and I are both careful enough to protect our dreams from damage.  If the game doesn't work out Santharia is simply left with more applications to play with and continues as normal.  If Santharia doesn't work out Sorren is simply left with more details about the fantasy world and will continue to grow as normal.

If my guess is right though they will both work out quite well and continue to grow and develop into an elaborate fantasy world bigger than any of us imagined.

Technology limits us right now.  But if we can play catch up we can get on top of the newest toys and ride them into the next decade.

I think the near future has a lot to offer including million triangles per second renders.  Remote control flat panel glasses (true 3d through lcd).  Smell and pain feedback.  Motion detection interface.  The fun stuff we now see in the movies I feel are very close.  And by getting on top of modern technology we can get ever closer to making dreams a reality.

I created a company when I was 19.  Our slogan was "Making Dreams a Reality".  I suppose that's one of the things that caught my attention with Santharia.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #23 on: 01 July 2001, 09:10:00 »

Many thanx for your detailed explanations, Nate!

I can understand the concerns and suggestions from both sides, from players (Sorren) and world developers (Santharia) and I see that we both, the two webmasters, are sitting in between these two groups who of course have all their own ideas how everything should work or shouldn't work. What we need is a compromise from both sides to make things work, to let creativity flow. I know also that developing a game as Nate envisions it is by no means an easy undertaking and that the vision and reality will differ considerably perhaps. Too strict demands on how the final result should look like from two sides would be impossible to cope with. But Nate already mentioned in many ways what I think too. And I guess he is heading in the same direction.

Let me especially note that I think that Nate is indeed someone who has a dream and does his best to make it reality. Sounds familiar somehow. And there are few people who stick to their projects the way Nate does, as far as I can judge from my first impressions. He spent months in order to make Sorren work and as you can see on the amount of visitors who enjoy gaming in Sorren it was worth it. Now a cooperation of two good sites is one step more towards the same goal: realizing a dream. Every site stands for something the other cannot offer. But of course most things still have to be based on trust and understanding. We of course still need more voices (from both sides), but I personally think a cooperation is worth a try and will help us both in our endeavours.

BTW: Thanx for integrating Santharia to your link exchanges, Nate! The amount of visitors increased dramatically (at least today), I've got several people who signed in for the newsletter already and judging from a guestbook entry we also already have one more who is interested in joining the Santharian development team.

Ok, hope to hear more voices here! Also keep us informed what the gamers of Sorren think about the cooperation, Nate!

Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/30/01 4:11:55 pm
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #24 on: 01 July 2001, 10:11:00 »

Well, reading all this I just see one big problem and that is how deep the cooperation will be.
On the one hand it sounds somewhat strange to adopt weights, measures, gods and cultures from Santharia but not geography.
On the other hand in case the playground of Sorren will be set as a region/continent (AFAIK we have still some free space in our world) of Santharia it would be strange if we don't integrate its geography/history/etc. into our world.

Without lists of demands here are some general suggestions:

-Santharian history goes up to the age of Discoveries (ca. 1300 b.S.), as this is the time of the great writer of Artimidor Federkiel, IMO only this or the following age(not yet existing age) might be suitable for Sorren/Santharia as this would prevent unwanted interferences in existing Santharian history.
I would think a RPG-Worldcreation-crossover can only happen here.

-The scale of your game is needed in order to know how Sorren can be built-in Santharia or Sorren combined with Santharia or Santharia built-in Sorren.
We can desert a town, plunder the landscape, burn farms, slaughter families to make several hundred square-miles free for you but whole continents might lead to a uprise and war with powerful nations we won't win if we try! ;)
Meaning: A single town for startup is IMO no problem, whole continents are! That has to be planned in before not afterwards!

-What do your players want(Or: Do you want your players want! ;) )? A RPG where they've to dive into an existing world or a world they'll create while playing? A small but important difference.

-It might be good to check back what you want to preserve from your now existing Sorren and if or how the existing world fits into Santharia. Already how many races exist there -in your existing game as well as in what you've planned for the RPG- might be a keypoint.

In the end it leads to one major point:

The degree of cooperation we start with has to be clear and the degree of cooperation we want to achieve, too!

If we want only to exchange ideas it might be better to handle Sorren as completely different Realm.
Problem: This would be a startup of a new worldcreation and thus it will get difficult how Santharia might help while keeping the World of Sorren unique and not a shallow copy of what we have here.
If we want to merge the game with Santharia in some way we have to know/discuss and clear how we will merge it together and how deep, otherwise we might have a big problem afterwards.

We shouldn't forget that binding two vast projects like this together leads to an even bigger project and so we all have to know what will be going before giving away what we all already see as our spiritual property (not kidding here!).

I try to keep a neutral position here but realize that this will be also a big problem as I just can't! :)

Another interesting proposal would be to open a Forum where Santharian guys can meet Sorren guys and we might exchange ideas about Sorren should work there. In a full cooperation the least thing would be to use this forum during game creation  as discussion board for all content-specific(and thus more Santharia-related) stuff.

BTW: A general timetable (esp. when you want to start making your RPG) would be good to know...

Well, lots of text and  think half of it can be skipped but I also think that 50% of it are points that has to be cleared/discussed to make a good decision!

Bye!

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight

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« Reply #25 on: 01 July 2001, 12:05:00 »

It's a huge project that's no doubt.  The current age sounds good.  Age of discoveries will work great.

The first version of the game will not be the final version.  It will grow and evolve over time as everything else does.

Basically stage 1 will allow 3d models to be displayed using java and directX on our websites.  These will likely be the same 3d models that's used for objects inside the game.  it isn't quite as time consuming as it may appear at first.  Because the models themselves can be reused for example your coat of arms.  We can texture the same mesh with different skins to have different ones.

Stage 2 will allow world builders to look around the zone (local area or map chopped into downloadable segments)  Downloading of zones will be in the background under limited bandwidth after the current one is downloaded to allow fairly seamless play.

Stage 3 will involve creating communication between the building application and the server so that changes in the zone can be stored on the server.  (details not determined).

Stage 4 will involve developers seeing one another in the same zone and both making changes simultaneously.

Stage 5 will involve many players being able to view and interact with the world.

Art and I have discussed the nature of developers, their roles, appointing them, what to call them in the rpg game so as to not break character etc.

As for a timeline I want to have stage 5 finished in 2 years.  Breaking it down farther would be a challenge.  I think working with you guys may push initial deadlines back but save in the long run but i'm not sure.

This will be hard and rewarding work for all of us.  I don't plan on messing with your history at all.  there isn't much from Sorren to work in.  Art and I seem to feel about the same way in most instances about matching stuff up.

It's too big of a project for us to create all of santharia at once.  Way too big of a project.  We are going to figure out how to do this with a small town called Uderza.

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Nate of Sorren
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« Reply #26 on: 01 July 2001, 12:15:00 »

Sorren will likely be the name of the planet in Human Tongue.  Dagada Daonami will be world builders in charge of zones.  Art and I have discussed a nice little background story to go along with this including about how they live outside the plane of existance etc.

The Dagada's have Other Daonami helping them.

Take note that all of these are world builders.  Players will not be given this same application.  The gods choose who are Dagada and who are Daonami and what abilities each have in the world.  One may be able to move objects another change the appearance of them applying different textures.  The method of getting the textures into the game might just be to simply upload it and then log in and move them.  At least that's the idea.

Some Daonami will continue to live in a land after it has been finished and populated with players.  The Dagada left are cursed.  They are unable to move objects but have special abilities to walk through walls and doors at will as well as abserving others without being seen.

If they find anything that needs fixed they have no power to fix it but report to their Dogada who can fix or assign the job to a Daonami.

I hope i'm not getting too elaberate here, i'm trying to quench the thirst for knowledge without flooding the others.

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Nate of Sorren
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« Reply #27 on: 01 July 2001, 13:00:00 »

There has to be a balance between excitement, graphics, sound, plot, strategy, interface, learning curve, and role-playing.

A game isn't likely to do as well if it has a learning curve that requires people to study for weeks before playing or if it's too complex to navigate.

Strict in game rules mess things up.  Targeting your audience helps.  Current Sorren players tend to be bright, and strategic.  Many are creative.  Not as many have that same high level of role-playing skills.  I'm not creating the 3d game for them.  The games will be working together.  But appeal to different audiences.

Just like another game might be added later that allows humans to play as dragons.  the goals of the new game would surely be different.  But I bet figuring out how to out think a dragon will get harder.

My icq is 20748554 for anyone that wants to contact me go ahead.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #28 on: 02 July 2001, 00:50:00 »

Nate has changed the code of his website so that Santharians can see the threads in the Sorren-Message Board concerning the cooperation without having to register at Sorren. Check out www.sorren.com/html/forum...?forumID=8 to see how Sorren players think about the idea!

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« Reply #29 on: 02 July 2001, 09:09:00 »

Just some short notes (still working on today's update):

The Dagada and Daonami Nate speaks of could be interpreted as mythological beings of the Etherial Void - they shift the Dream. We had a similar idea already somewhere about Guardians of the world, but it was never realized. These spirits (angels? demi-Gods?) would be essential for the game and could also play a role in Santharian World Development. I envision them as some sort of tragical figures (well, most of them), as they are doomed to create and modify the dream, but not allowed to live in it (at least some). Could be an interesting mythological undertaking: to give these creatures purpose, meaning and destiny aside from a pure function for the game.

Concerning the Forum you mentioned, Koldar: Should I maybe add a Forum inside the Santharian Message Board, Nate, harbouring all things related to this project? More threads than this one would also be fine so that we can discuss certain aspects seperately...

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