* 
Welcome Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?


*
gfxgfx Home Forum Help Search Login Register   gfxgfx
gfx gfx
gfx
Pages: 1 [2] 3
Print
Author Topic: Orcish Vocabulary Discussion  (Read 14472 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
PhraugMar the Great
Newbie
*

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Posts: 3


View Profile
« Reply #15 on: 17 August 2005, 10:30:00 »

Is there a word for "the" in Orcen

Logged
Bard Judith
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 365
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 7.650


Dwarvenmistress


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #16 on: 17 August 2005, 13:24:00 »

Phraghar - No, there is and will be no word for 'the' - it's not used.  'Maelion, I think the same will be true for 'to be'.

K' as an indicator of subject SHOULD be repeated for multiple subjects, yes.  How can I resist adding more 'k's?

And I like the proposal of making 'Y' do double duty - very suitably orcen!   Alysse, what do you think?

(rambling follows...)

'je' as an ending particle is used in Dutch to diminutize:

Alysse's real name is "Lies" (pronounced 'Lees' for you non-Dutch) but when she was small we used to call her "Liesje" (pronounced 'Leesha').  You also have 'meid' and 'meisje' (girl) as examples of the same diminutive.

And in English, though it's not formal, we use 'i',  'ie' or 'y' endings!
"Look at the nice doggie / horsie / kitty, sweetie!"   Not to mention that you used another esoteric ending already - 'ling' as in 'elfling', 'sweetling', etc.  

:smile  

Edited by: Bard Judith at: 8/16/05 21:29
Logged

"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
ishmaelion
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 315


Ishmaelion the philosopher


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: 18 August 2005, 01:16:00 »

I had some ideas about orcish, although I don't know if they are any good, I'm going to post them here anyway, maybe we can usechangeassimilate some of it.

Alright, let's look at the verbs we have encountered sofar:

rrt = do, doing, to do
arq = hit, hitting, to hit
b'rak = declare war, declaring war, to declare war (maybe the 'b' somehow is the war part and the 'rak' is the declaring part?)
hnk = bite, biting, to bite

Well, there we have them, a little bit an unruly bunch aren't they? The only link I could find between them is that they all consist of three letters, taking the 'b' in b'rak as an addition. plus, they always end on a medeklinker: t, q, k . If one would follow these 'rules' one could create a lot of verbs like:

ogk = see, seeing, to see
khq = fight, fighting, to fight
rat = have, having, to have

one has 297 possibilities of three lettered words which end on a t, q or k, and they might be increased by the g and m:

ong = eat, eating, to eat
ogm = move, moving, to move

Now, you should all remember that these are only ramblings of my mind, I am just brainstorming a bit, so if you have comments, please make them.

The verb 'rat' meaning to have invokes some new issues in my mind, namely, those of naamvallen!:eek
Whe have the 'u' for objects, so the sentence:"I have a wolf" would result in: "K'rat ram'u" which sounds pretty orcy I think. But what if you had wanted to say: "I have gotten a wolf from an orc youngling" ? That's right, the genitive:eek  
would it bë: "K'rat ram'u Y'oc" ? This could very well be so, but you'd encounter problems in the following sentence: "K'mnt ram'u Y'oc" where mnt = bring, bringing, to bring. This could mean "I bring the wolf to the orcling", but could also mean "I bring the wolf from the orcling" You can solve this problem in a number of ways, one could add words substituting from, to, towards, next to, on top of, etc. I think this would be a good way of solving the problem, but could also think of other letters like we have allready done with the 'K' and the 'u'. I like this way better, as we have already made a rule for the nominative (subject) and the accusative (object). Maybe something like -og for the genitive (from) so the sentence would be "K'mnt ram'u Y'oc'og" and If you wanted to say "I bring the wolf to the orcling" one could a an augment like a- resulting in "K'mnt ram'u a'Y'oc"
so, summarizing, we could have the following rules:
K- = nominative (subject)
-u = accusative (object)
-og = genitive (from)
a- = dativeablative (to)

Well, this was enough for one morning, I have some more ideas, but let's see how these ones do shall we?
please comment on this.:pet  

Logged

Mi a welaf gwr
gwelaf fi y paladr
angheu a ofnaf fi
mi a ddifferaf fy merch
cwyddaf
Bard Judith
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 365
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 7.650


Dwarvenmistress


View Profile Homepage
« Reply #18 on: 18 August 2005, 16:11:00 »

Oh, you can expand the definition of verbs more widely, I think.  After all, they will be the basis of the orcen vocabulary - that and nouns!  They can be more than three letters (though I would stick to one syllable or two for most orcen words - individual phonemes of meaning, that is) and can end with most consonants (if that's what a 'medeklinker' translates as!) - though I do like the idea of keeping them always ending in a consonant...

So by that 'rule'

mym
wrot
h'hun
vik
drpth

would all qualify as usable syllables.  


We should decree right now that any syllable should have at least ONE vowel, no matter how many consonants you put in it!  "Hr'hunth" is valid orcen, and pronouncable by the human palate - "Ptwx'nn" is not.  

'Y' counts as a vowel.  Vowel blends such as 'oi', 'ae', etc. give a visually more sophisticated effect - let's avoid them if we can!

I love the last paragraph of your suggestion - obviously you know far more about grammar than I've even forgotten, to reverse an old phrase.   However, as I understand Alysse's conception of the culture, you're making the language too sophisticated.

She theorizes that the spoken language is quite simple and is augmented with some form of gesture, sign language, or subtle bodily signals that convey more layers of meaning.   So I don't think the ambiguity in your sample sentence will be at all a problem in that regard!

Alysse?  Comments here, please!  :wave  

Logged

"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
ishmaelion
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 315


Ishmaelion the philosopher


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: 19 August 2005, 05:19:00 »

I was reading through some texts about the orcs and encountered two names of places:

Resz'Ar'Ghun = Tombs of the cursed
Haz'Ar'Mhun = Guard of the red fields

These words, if they are orcish (I thought they were) show a translation for the word "of", namely "Ar"
furthermore, it gives us some more words, which will enlarge our vocabulary:

Resz = TombTombs (maybe the case of plural is also not a spoken, but a matter of body language?)
Haz = GuardGuards
Ghun = the cursed maybe even 'to curse'
Mhun = the red fields (probably a name for the region, instead of meaning exactly red fields, I guess)

There are more words in other texts as well, I would like to list them here below with their translation, so that anybody who needs an orc word, can check if it exists or not. Any help is welcome, I will be starting in the races section, so if anyone would want to seek orcish words in the other sections, please do!:thumbup

Ps: Bard Judith, I fully agree with your verb 'rule', but I do think we should make some rules, and not pushing everything to body language, or we should work on the sign language as well, I would make things clearer for me personally.

Logged

Mi a welaf gwr
gwelaf fi y paladr
angheu a ofnaf fi
mi a ddifferaf fy merch
cwyddaf
ishmaelion
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 315


Ishmaelion the philosopher


View Profile
« Reply #20 on: 19 August 2005, 06:02:00 »

Allright, here come the first words from the races texts + the words we created so far:

A
Ar = of
Arq = hit, hitting, to hit
Ashz = Noble, High, (Worthy:number1 ) (Ashz'oc = tribe)
Ashzuck = Worthy Warriors

B
B'korra = music (yes, orcs do have music)
b'rak = declare war, declaring war, to declare war

C
Cha = female
Chyrakisth = ?? (Chyrakisth'oc = tribe, Nybelmar, so probably other language)

G
Ghun = the Cursed
Gob = (Cave(s)) (Gob’oc = tribe, also known as Goblins)
Goruck = Shielbearer(s)

H
Harach-me = Ogre Berserk(s)
Haz = Guard
hnk = bite, biting, to bite
H'rok = horse
H'rrimt = stop, cease

K
(khq = fight, fighting, to fight)
Kroch = good

L
Losh = true (Losh'oc = tribe)

M
m= a negative
Mhun = 'the Red Fields'
(mnt = bring, bringing, to bring)
Morgur = Warg(s)
M'ruk = fangs

N
Nap'tyr = (thought to be general word indicating action or behavior)
Ngangaz = Archer(s)
Noruck-chmer = Skirmisher(s)

O
oc = orcorcs
(ogk = see, seeing, to see)
(ogm = move, moving, to move)
(ong = eat, eating, to eat)
Orcristh = ?? (Orcristh'oc = tribe, Nybelmar, so probably other language)
Oshter = 'Mount Oshter' (Oshter'oc = tribe)

P
Ph'ragh = stone, rock

R
(rat = have, having, to have)
Resz = Tomb(s)
Rhom = (plain/prairie/grassland/steppe) (Rhom'oc = tribe)
Rochock = Wargrider(s)
Rrt = do, doing, to do

U
Uckzuck = Warrior
Uon'kh'al'on = Shaman

V
Volkek-Oshra = (Society of Enlightment) (Volkek-Oshra'oc = tribe, often called Ximaxian orcs)

Y
Yrr’la’h’rok = (lit) milk of horse. An alcoholic drink made from fermented mare's milk.

Z
Z’rovkya = hairy, bearded

Words within brackets: ogk, khq, rat, ong, ogm, mnt are only ideas, and have not yet been approved or anything.

Edited by: ishmaelion  at: 8/19/05 10:47
Logged

Mi a welaf gwr
gwelaf fi y paladr
angheu a ofnaf fi
mi a ddifferaf fy merch
cwyddaf
Marvin Cerambit
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1.233



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: 19 August 2005, 06:26:00 »

Like I said, Chyrakisth and Orcristh will probably each have their own language. Maybe this could be the translations for orc in each one?

And I propose the following translations:
Gob = cave (Gob'Oc = cave orc)
uck or zuck = warrior (ashzuck = worthy warriors)
Rhom = plain/prairie/grassland/steppe (not sure what the Heaths of Wilderon exactly are)

for Volkek-Oshra:
Quote:
Later, when the Eleven Towers were built, the orcs changed their name to the Volkek-Oshra, which they said meant Magic Orcs, though no one knows from which language thin fact derives.

Maybe oshra comes from oc? Like some kind of dialect.

Or you could change it to the translation of 'Society of Elightenment' (see their history).
Volkek = Elightened
Oshra = society/group

Edit:
Maybe Noruck-chmer should be formed out of two words as well? And - or ' could be used to indicate that it's composed out of two words (maybe something the researchers started using to recognize the seperate words easier?).

Edit 2:
Uon'kh'al'on = shaman (4 words?)

Edited by: Marvin Cerambit  at: 8/18/05 14:59
Logged
ishmaelion
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 315


Ishmaelion the philosopher


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: 19 August 2005, 09:20:00 »

I'll add them to my post:thumbup  

I've put them in brackets, because we should get some approvement first, just like the other verbs, okay?

Thamokles: "the surreal combination of ground elements in the intrinsic elemental thesis"

Edited by: ishmaelion  at: 8/18/05 17:28
Logged

Mi a welaf gwr
gwelaf fi y paladr
angheu a ofnaf fi
mi a ddifferaf fy merch
cwyddaf
Marvin Cerambit
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1.233



View Profile
« Reply #23 on: 19 August 2005, 11:57:00 »

Uon'kh'al'on = shaman is certain (just use the search function on it)

and as for uck/zuck, you have
Ashz = Noble, High, Worthy
and
Ashzuck = Worthy Warriors
so it seems that uck or zuck (depending on what you like) must be 'warrior'. Zuck seems to be sounding better (and for some reason the German pronounciation of 'z' seems to fit the orcish language the best)

Edited by: Marvin Cerambit  at: 8/18/05 19:58
Logged
Alysse the Likely
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 69
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.086



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: 19 August 2005, 19:16:00 »

Wow!  Okay, I've got some commenting to do.  I'm our resident Orc expert, for those of you who don't know, and the Bard pointed me to this thread.  

It's wonderful to see such enthusiasm!  Congratulations, Ishmaelion, on your thorough research, and thank you Marvin, for your helpful and constructive comments!

BUT...I must say this--please remember that the orcs are not a civilized race.  Even those orcs that do have some interaction with humans are not likely to be cooperative language teachers.

a) to orcs, anything that is not another orc is "vermin".  Would you try to teach anything to or learn anything from a cockroach?  No, you would squash it.  So as Compendium researchers, we really wouldn't have the opportunity to learn much about the orcen language, beyond a few words here and there.

b) Orcs don't have a hugely intricate spoken language.  For example:

"I am hitting you", "You are hitting me", "They are hitting him,"  "She is hitting it"--all would be said the same way, "K'arq'u".  All the subtleties are expressed by way of a richly complex sign language involving hand gestures, postures, even just facial movements.    Though I admire your sincerity and the effort you are putting into this, Ishmaelion, the Bard is right--the spoken language is just not that sophisticated.

c) Except for the black orcs of Nybelmar, orcs do not have a written language (and the black orcs have a complex pictorial system like Egyptian hieroglyphics) so our Tharian spelling is based on how the words sound to our ears.  Which means that there is no standardized spelling for Orcish speech.  Thus there can be no definite rules based on the spelling.  "Rrt" is simply a rolled "r" sound closed with a "t", not necessarily a three letter word.

These problems would not be insurmountable with a willing teacher but where would you find a co-operative orc?  There are one or two cases in all of Santharia where you have a (female) orc in a long-term relationship with a (male) human (see " Racial Crossbreeding in Caelereth", in the Miscellaneous Forum) but none of them are in "civilized" lands and the travel difficulties/costs make acquiring the information difficult.  There just isn't that much call for orcen language experts in Southern Sarvonia.


As regards your list, there are some additional words that are not on it (see "The Tale of Fash", in the Library)

B'korra--music (yes, orcs do have music)
H'rok--horse
Cha--female
Kroch---good
Ph'ragh--stone, rock
M'ruk--fangs
Z’rovkya--hairy, bearded
H'rrimt--stop, cease
Nap'tyr-- (thought to be general word indicating action or behavior)  
Yrr’la’h’rok--(lit) milk of horse.  An alcoholic drink made from fermented mare's milk.


So if you add these, we should have a fairly complete list of what's on the site. Just be aware that our information would naturally be limited and our understanding equally so.  We really can't realistically have a good understanding of the orcish language at this point in Santharian history.

Again, thank you for all the work you have done and are doing!  Once we get the words and rules collated and organized, we can put them up on the site properly, rather than having them haphazardly scattered around.  You're making that job much easier.

And I apologize for not commenting sooner, I should have been watching, but my attention has been elsewhere that last day or two.  If there is something that needs clarification, please do let me know and I will try to get back to you on it.

Alysse the Likely

Edited by: Alysse theLikely at: 8/19/05 3:31
Logged

Alysse the Likely
Marvin Cerambit
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 0
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 1.233



View Profile
« Reply #25 on: 20 August 2005, 02:18:00 »

Quote:
a) to orcs, anything that is not another orc is "vermin". Would you try to teach anything to or learn anything from a cockroach? No, you would squash it. So as Compendium researchers, we really wouldn't have the opportunity to learn much about the orcen language, beyond a few words here and there.

How about using the Volkek-Oshra as a source for the orcish language? They are Sarvonian orcs, so they would probably know the Kh'omchr'om. They might even be the ones trying to find a way to write things down.

The only problem might be is that they had no contact with other orcs since 2017 b.S (when they moves to  Ximax). So they might have developed there own dialect out of the Kh'omchr'om.

Logged
ishmaelion
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 315


Ishmaelion the philosopher


View Profile
« Reply #26 on: 20 August 2005, 02:45:00 »

I've added the new words to the post.
:thumbup  

As to those verbs I created and the words Marvin came up with (those that weren't literally in texts), what do you think about them? And, as we only know words by chance, maybe we should add some. The Oshter'oc are very millitarized, and researchers must have seen them in battle to know such a thing. So it would be logical that some words are overheard: "Attack!, Halt!, Retreat! (although I do not think they would shout that too often)
Fire!"
We could at least produce these words, because they could have been overheard by our researchers, and do not require a friendly scholarly orc (actually, we'd need a lot of not friendly warliking orcs;)   )
And as for their body-language, I for one am curious how that works8o    but I'm always curious how things work, so you needn't pay much attention to it, but would there be an offchance that we might produce a short section on orc bodylanguage, just the basics, just what we could dedact out of observations?

yours truly,
Ishmaelion

Ps: I might be able to reverse our Vocabulary today, tharian - orcish, will that be okay? Might make it easier for people to find words:thumbup   (I am ready with the vocabulary, where should I post it?)

Pps:
Quote:
There just isn't that much call for orcen language experts in Southern Sarvonia.

Maybe now there will be:idea  :wink2  :D  :read  

Ppps:
Quote:
to orcs, anything that is not another orc is "vermin".

We should create a word for "veminhumanelfdwarf rownie" too, just one word:thumbup  

Edited by: ishmaelion  at: 8/19/05 13:09
Logged

Mi a welaf gwr
gwelaf fi y paladr
angheu a ofnaf fi
mi a ddifferaf fy merch
cwyddaf
Alysse the Likely
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 69
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.086



View Profile
« Reply #27 on: 20 August 2005, 06:10:00 »

I am okay with those words that you and Marvin came up with, so go ahead and include them.  They sound suitably orcish to me ;)    And, yes, we'd probably know some military terminology.  However, "retreat" would probably just be the orcish word for "stop" or "halt", (which we have) with an obvious gesture to the rear (arm upraised, jerked backwards over shoulder, for instance, since any military gestures would need to be large, sweeping ones to be visible.)
As for "vermin", there is such a word.  It's "Ch'ron-P'thok" which probably translates most accurately as "lower being", or "lesser life" and is generally used in reference to any other sentient race, including half-orcs.

edit: As for the Ximaxian orcs, Marvin is right, they have been separated from other orcs for over 3600 years--the language would have changed drastically in that time.  I mean, think about how our language has changed since just the time of Chaucer, for instance.  I think it would not even sound like the same tongue, not to mention having developed specialized terms for their magic, (much like we have developed specialized computer jargon :)  )



Alysse the Likely

Edited by: Alysse theLikely at: 8/19/05 14:19
Logged

Alysse the Likely
ishmaelion
Aspiring Member
**

Gained Aura: 10
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 315


Ishmaelion the philosopher


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: 20 August 2005, 09:33:00 »

Fully updated now:

In Northern Sarvonia the orcs have a common tongue to communicate with each other, the so-called Kh'om'chr'om. With thousands of dialects this language is often necessary even between related tribes.

It consists of hard grunting sounds and hissing, sounding cruel and unforgiving to other races. It is as hard to learn as to master a life in most orcish societies.


A
Archer(s) = Ngangaz
Attack! = Rrrak!

B
Bearded, hairy = Z’rovkya  
bite, biting, to bite = hnk
bring, bringing, to bring = mnt

C
Cave(s) = Gob (Gob’oc = tribe, also known as Goblins)  
cease, stop = H'rrimt
Cursed, the = Ghun

D
declare war, declaring war, to declare war = b'rak
Distance, future = kh’al’on
do, doing, to do = Rrt

E
eat, eating, to eat = ong

F
Fangs = M'ruk
Female = Cha
fight, fighting, to fight = khq
Future, distance = kh’al’on

G
Good = Kroch
Guard = Haz

H
Hairy, bearded = Z’rovkya
have, having, to have = rat
High, noble, worthy = Ashz
hit, hitting, to hit = Arq
Horse = H'rok

M
Milk of horse (lit).  An alcoholic drink made from fermented mare's milk. = Yrr’la’h’rok
'Mount Oshter' = Oshter (Oshter'oc = tribe)
move, moving, to move = ogm
Music = B'korra

N
Nap'tyr = (thought to be general word indicating action or behavior)
Negative form = m
Noble, High, Worthy = Ashz (Ashz'oc = tribe)

O
of = Ar
Ogre Berserk(s) = Harach-me
Orc(s) = oc

P
Plain/prairie/grassland/steppe = Rhom (Rhom'oc = tribe)

R
'Red Fields, the' = Mhun
Rock, stone = Ph'ragh

S
see, seeing, to see = Uon
Shaman = Uon'kh'al'on
Shielbearer(s) = Goruck
Skirmisher(s) = Noruck-chmer  

T
Tomb(s) = Resz
True = Losh (Losh'oc = tribe)

V
VerminHumanelfdwarf rownieeveryone not orcish = Ch'ron-P'thok

W
Warg(s) = Morgur
Wargrider(s) = Rochock
Warrior = Uckzuck
Worthy, noble, high = Ashz
Worthy Warriors = Ashzuck


Other Orc tribes with different languages:
Chyrakisth'oc = tribe, Nybelmar
Orcristh = tribe, Nybelmar
Volkek-Oshra = ‘Magic Orcs”  (Volkek-Oshra'oc = tribe, often called Ximaxian orcs)


:jawdrop  

Edited by: ishmaelion  at: 8/20/05 8:24
Logged

Mi a welaf gwr
gwelaf fi y paladr
angheu a ofnaf fi
mi a ddifferaf fy merch
cwyddaf
Alysse the Likely
Santh. Member
***

Gained Aura: 69
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 2.086



View Profile
« Reply #29 on: 20 August 2005, 12:15:00 »

Looks good!

A couple of things I'd change:

The word for "attack" should be derivative from the word "B'rak", to declare war.  I suggest "Rrrak!"  (Orcish has a lot of rolled "r"'s, it's a pretty growly language. :)  )

Also, the word for shaman, "Uon'kh'al'on" should be derivative, probably from the words for "see" and "distance".  I recommend you change the word  for "see" to "uon" and add "kh'al'on", meaning distance, or possibly future.  (To orcs, they would be similar concepts and a simple arm movement or hand signal could indicate whether one was referring to a geographical or temporal distance; e.g point towards sun for time, across the land for space)

Other that that, looks great!  You've been busy, Ishmaelion, and that's made my job much easier.  Thank you!

Alysse the Likely

Logged

Alysse the Likely
Pages: 1 [2] 3
Print
Jump to:  

Recent
[27 March 2019, 00:01:57]

[21 June 2018, 14:28:00]

[31 May 2017, 06:35:55]

[06 May 2017, 05:27:04]

[03 April 2017, 01:15:03]

[26 March 2017, 12:48:25]

[15 March 2017, 02:23:07]

[15 March 2017, 02:20:28]

[15 March 2017, 02:17:52]

[14 March 2017, 20:23:43]

[06 February 2017, 04:53:35]

[31 January 2017, 08:45:52]

[15 December 2016, 15:50:49]

[26 November 2016, 23:16:38]

[27 October 2016, 07:42:01]

[27 September 2016, 18:51:05]

[11 September 2016, 23:17:33]

[11 September 2016, 23:15:27]

[11 September 2016, 22:58:56]

[03 September 2016, 22:22:23]
Members
Total Members: 1019
Latest: lolanixon
Stats
Total Posts: 144586
Total Topics: 11052
Online Today: 47
Online Ever: 700
(23 January 2020, 20:05:39)
Users Online
Users: 0
Guests: 24
Total: 24

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2005, Simple Machines
TinyPortal v0.9.8 © Bloc
Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Theme based on Cerberus with Risen adjustments by Bloc and Krelia
Modified By Artimidor for The Santharian Dream
gfx
gfxgfx gfxgfx