New Kh'omchr'om (Orcish) Vocabulary Here!

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[Tharoc Wargrider]

the study of Kh'omchr'om is a relatively new endeavour, and as such we are all still 'feeling our way' a little. There are a few ideas about how the language is constructed, but no hard and fast rules exist as yet.

I can't speak for our other orcen devotees, such as Azhira, but when I need a new word for something I just make it up. I have taken inspiration from many sources, already existing words, the Klingon language from Star Trek, and even the IKEA shopping catalogue! Mainly I find inspiration for new words from things I read or hear everytday, or just from my imagination.

When creating a new word or phrase, it is impostant that you check the already existing vocabulary to make sure you aren't repeating something. Try to familiarise yourself with the orcen tongue, say the words to yourself until you have a feel for how it sounds, how the words are constructed etc. Look for common letter combinations ('ch' 'cha' 'kr' 'ak'). This will help you decide if your new words would fit in with the language.

I suggested a while ago that due to their tusks, the language, apart from being very gutteral, would have a fair amount of hissing sounds in it. Try to incorporate this occasionally.

I really should try to find my original ideas on language construction and discuss them with Azzy.

[M´ruk Loshashzuck]

Ok, thanks. How's this?:

Make- Ssal
Death- Lak
To Kill- Sharo (lit. make death)
Wound- Arg
Weapon- Arg-Ssal (lit. wound maker)
To Die- Kal
War- Lak-Ssalo (lit. death maker)

Constructing the imperative: add the suffix 'ek' to the imperative if it ends with a consonant and 'sek' if it ends with a vowel. E.g. Die! = Kalek! Kill! = Sharosek!

[Tharoc Wargrider]

I think these sound good, LOTP. Don't be suprised if they aren't added to the dictionary just yet. There are words that have been floating around for ages that are still in the queue.

Updating the dictionary is one job I have on my list!

As for your suggestions for constuction, we need to gather all the orc experts together (in a very small room) and decide what the final rules should be.

I would try to avoid making words too long though. The orc language is evolving from the basic militery commands they used centuries ago which were invariably short, barking words. They still don't have the need for words longer than, say, two or three syllables, and maybe 6 or 7 letters.

Another point to keep in mind is that due to their recent trading with other races, they will undoubtedly be incorporating words from tharian, thergerim (rarely) and styrash (very rarely, due to the construction of the elven tongue orcs find it difficult to pronounce) into their everyday speech. I don't think they would directly borrow words, but rather use an orcen version of them.
Foe example, I'm working on an orcen weapon called the Kle'vaar. It is a chopping weapon who's name has obviously been borrowed from the tharian cleaver.

[M´ruk Loshashzuck]

Ok, good point. How about:

To kill- Sharo
War- Lak-Ssalo (lit. death maker)

And some more:

Mouth- Aaa 
Tooth- Ook
Tusk- Tuk
Eat- Nom 

Let me know if that's a bit too obvious.

[Tharoc Wargrider]

Keep 'em coming, LOTP. If we don't use them exactly as they are, we may be inspired by them!

And why in the name of K'ahn'uck's breeches didn't I think of using nom for eat!
Brilliant! That one's definately going in!

Oh, and another thing; many orcen words have slightly different meanings, depending on the context they were used in. Much of the orcen language is based and expressed through body/facial movements, any of which can change the context of a word or phrase. It's a very complex language in that respect,and very difficult/impossible for non-orcs to become fluent in.

[Azhira Styralias]

A good start, LOTP. As Tharoc mentioned, when us developers need a word, we simply make one up. I am not a language expert, so I am fairly sloppy when if comes to language. Most of my orcen and Kaaer words are inconsistent, but I try to make them fit as best I can.

[M´ruk Loshashzuck]

@Tharoc- Thanks! It came to me in a flash of inspiration  !
That makes sense, but how would one show that? I mean, could you just write Tooth = Ook and frown, or is there another system?

@Azhira Ok, that makes sense. But if we based Kh'omchr'om (loosely) on a RL language, we could get a bit of inspiration. Maybe just in a few areas. But then again, there aren't many languages that are anything like Kh'omchr'om. In the mean time though, I think just making it up should suffice.

Thanks for the help!

[M´ruk Loshashzuck]

N-And
Arl-Greeting
Bla- to talk

[M´ruk Loshashzuck]

Sakad- goodbye
Sif- to smell
Sif with frown- to smell bad or stink
Ak!- general exclamation

[Tharoc Wargrider]

I'm giving M'ruk a shiny new AURA +1 for his welcome additions to the orcen dictionary.

And in the expectation that he will continue with this worthwhile endeavour. *Peers ominously over the top of his closer-upper lenses at the Newbie*

I sense you may be one of those bright sparks who have a wonderful command of the intricacies of language, Mruk. With this in mind, (and remembering that I'm completely clueless in that direction), I suggest that we try to define a few simple rules for Kh'omchr'om at some point.

For example, we need to decide why some words have apostrophes in them in places where apostrophes have no business being. Stuff like that.

Are you in?

[Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr]

Not strictly speaking vocabulary, but perhaps the apostrophes could be represent glottal stops (at the most basic level) or for a higher level of complexity, changes of expression? For example, to take the name of the new contributor, my glamorous assistant - M'ruk, may I borrow your name for a second? Don't worry, I won't damage it...much.

Anyway, m'ruk could be rendered as m[snarl showing fangruk. Perhaps, if I may be so bold, symbols like ~/#/^/>/</`/¬/¦ could be taken and given differenmt meanings.

Let's say:

`  =  Tooth-displaying snarl (E.g. M`ruk)
#  =  Cross-body gesture with hand, makes a word plural
^  =  Frown (so, as M`ruk proposed, sif is the basic smell word, but s^if means stink)
>  =  Jutting chin (maybe for more challenging, belligerent words?)
<  =  Smile (or whatever orcs do... - eg, s^if means stench, but s<if means nice smell.)
¬  =  Tensing up of body (I know I overuse it, but s¬if means smell of danger)
¦   =  Gesture with hand, turns word into a verb.
And then ' as a multi-purpose glottal stop.

For sentence structure, I have a tentative idea of orcs speaking verb-subject-object as basic word order, with adjectives and adverbs coming second? Eg, S¦if Tharoc Altario means "Tharoc smells Altario".

I've got a couple more ideas, but I want to see if these are ridiculed first. That's my answer to Tharoc's specific point, at least.

Hope they'll work/provide inspiration.

Athviaro

[Tharoc Wargrider]

See, this is just the kind of thing I was looking for. Many thanks, Athviaro.

Your thoughts on why apostrophes keep popping up are interesting, and not entirely dissimilar to my own. I'm not sure we should be delving into creating the visual language until we've decided more about the oral side of things. Your suggestion of using more symbols is a good one, however, and I shall file it safely!

As for sentence construction, this is an area where I think the various tribes would have their own ideas. Personally, I rarely use Kh'omchr'om when speaking as Tharoc, preferring instead to use his version of Tharian (which is actually the dialect I speak with in RL, albeit tidied up somewhat for ease of reading, believe it or not).

[Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr]

See, this is just the kind of thing I was looking for. Many thanks, Athviaro.

Why thank you. Have a cookie, I know you love them.

Your thoughts on why apostrophes keep popping up are interesting, and not entirely dissimilar to my own. I'm not sure we should be delving into creating the visual language until we've decided more about the oral side of things. Your suggestion of using more symbols is a good one, however, and I shall file it safely!

Point taken. I merely did so in response to your saying that Orcen is very visual and Artimidor's statement

the orcs have a common tongue to communicate with each other

which led me to believe that, in the nature of "pidgen" tongues, this common language would be fairly basic in its vocabulary range and it's ambition of syntactical and grammatical scope. (I actually pulled that sentence off!) Therefore, I thought a more accurate way of representing expression in print was needed. My picture was that orcen made no distinction between many things in the actual words, but used gestures to express number and word type. (I note that you have the same word for "Wargs" as for "Warg" - thus, would not a gesture be needed? Also "Cha" means "enchanted, cursed" or "woman" - again, a distinction of some sort is needed - you even claim they have "different" gestures, but what are they?)

As for sentence construction, this is an area where I think the various tribes would have their own ideas. Personally, I rarely use Kh'omchr'om when speaking as Tharoc, preferring instead to use his version of Tharian (which is actually the dialect I speak with in RL, albeit tidied up somewhat for ease of reading, believe it or not).

the orcs have a common tongue to communicate with each other

Thus would they not have a common sentence structure? Or maybe (this only just occured) the more "advanced" tribes can be distinguished by a more sophisticated sentence strucure, and the cruder by their basic construction? It's your language(ish - well, it's not mine!)

Happy language building.

Athviaro

[M´ruk Loshashzuck]

@ Tharoc Thanks very much! I will polish it as much as I can. As for continuing, I doubt anyone could stop me if they tried (that is, unless they had cookies). I look forward to working with you often. We Orcs should stick together, you know!

@ Athviaro That is an excellent idea, in my opinion, and I think with a few modifications it could be a good base for this language. My only concern is that there aren't enough symbols to cover every action, and it would be a pain to try to do that. I suggest that the symbols correspond to only the most common actions and the rest are written in.  

[Athviaro Shyu-eck-Silfayr]

That was my idea too, but I decided to err on the side of "too many". If asked, I would say to keep the "plural" gesture, the "verb" gesture, maybe the snarl (`) and then a frown and smile for positive and negative words. Then all others can be represented with ' and be written in next to the word, perhaps in [] or {}. But some basic ones would be useful, it seems to me.  ' can just be to show where these expressions are/change.

Then for the grammar side of it, perhaps

'A - 1st person (I or we)
E'e - 2nd person (you)
O'u - 3rd person (He/She/It/They)

So... (If we keep plural notation the same)

'A
E'e
O'u
#A
E'#e
O'#u

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