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Miraran Tehuriden
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« on: 18 May 2006, 08:31:00 »

I needed to create a styrash translation of "Drifting Woods" for my mangrove project, so i constructed the term Phédán'lón (litt; float-forest), But i am not familiar with the rules of word composition and verb use, so i just wanted to check if i was right.

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Avrah Kehabhra

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Mina
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« Reply #1 on: 18 May 2006, 08:47:00 »

The ending -án on a verb appears to mark it as being in the infinitive form, so I don't think it' suitable here.  I'm not sure what the correct form is, but I think it might be Phédá'lón.  


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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #2 on: 18 May 2006, 10:33:00 »

Ah i think i did figure it out now ( grammatical text didn't make any sense to me, had to borrow a dictionary at the library to understand them )

Mina is competely right; Phédá'lón

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« Reply #3 on: 18 May 2006, 12:28:00 »

Don't know where you get the "á" from, but according to the Styrásh Principles on the site it's "Phéd'lón" (the conjugation table states the "Phédi'lón" possibility as well, but I plan to eliminate this altogether at the next rework).


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Miraran Tehuriden
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« Reply #4 on: 18 May 2006, 12:43:00 »

Using the COnjugation Of Verbs table, i was under the impression that if ánci-á iú means being silent, Phed-á iu would be beaing afloat... so Phédá'lón would be Woods (that are) afloat...

Of course, my grammar is all instinctive, and my understanding of Imperative, participle, and infinitive is.. next to nothing, realy, so i might be reading this thing wrong alltogether.

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« Reply #5 on: 18 May 2006, 13:14:00 »

"ánci-á iú" actually means "I am silent", but indeed that is not that clear at this table and can lead to misinterpretations. It's only there in brackets at the first mentioning to give a translation of the word we're conjugating here. At the language rework I'll make sure to put in the conjugations in the correct English (Tharian) translation as well.


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Mina
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« Reply #6 on: 18 May 2006, 17:01:00 »

Yeah, I got that iú was 'I', so I thought that -á was something along the lines of 'is' or 'being'.  I suppose that would be í instead, but is usually unmarked?  


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Anwulf
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« Reply #7 on: 20 May 2006, 20:48:00 »

Art, when you do update the Styrásh grammar pages, it'd be a good idea to change the verb to an actual verb (e.g. speak, see, love, hate etc.), since ánci-á iú "I am silent" is a stative verb.

As Mina's post reveals, the form seems to be a source of confusion.

Mina, the verb is "be silent". The final is the 1st person singular inflection and agrees with the subject (which looks just like the Sicilian pronoun iu "I").

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Mina
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« Reply #8 on: 20 May 2006, 21:01:00 »

Ah, so -á is something like Quenya or Finnish -n?  Okay, I think I get that.  However, why is the 'iú' subject still needed the, or are languages normally that redundant?  


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Anwulf
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« Reply #9 on: 21 May 2006, 21:18:00 »

That varies from language to language. Some languages are called pro-drop languages, because they don't require subject pronouns. Italian is an example of a pro-drop language. In that case, the ending tells me which person is speaking (just as it does in Styrásh). Chinese is also a pro-drop language, but the context is important because the verb lacks personal endings.

English belongs to the other camp. In English, an overt subject is required even when the verb has an inflectional ending. I have to say, He sees a cat. I can't say *Sees a cat. But just because a language has a high degree of verbal inflection probably doesn't mean that it's automatically a pro-drop language.

There are exceptions in English in certain styles of writing such as diaries where it's not unusual to drop the subject (e.g. Got up just after 10am. Went to town this afternoon etc.). You know that the missing pronoun is "I".

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Mina
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« Reply #10 on: 21 May 2006, 22:08:00 »

Wait, Chinese is pro-drop?  I'm a native speaker, and I'm pretty sure I don't leave out subject pronouns that often.  Maybe I just don't notice it.  


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Anwulf
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« Reply #11 on: 22 May 2006, 20:19:00 »

It may depend on the variety, but you can pro-drop in Mandarin. Perhaps you have to say, "so long as the context is known". In other words, if you know I'm the speaker, then I don't have to say 我 "wo". The impression I get is that Chinese drops subject pronouns more readily than English. However, I won't argue with a native speaker. :worship

Japanese is similar because although the verb lacks personal endings, the subject may be left as understood.

In Italian, on the other hand, you can pro-drop quite freely because the endings of the verb tell you who's saying what.

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Mina
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« Reply #12 on: 25 May 2006, 03:48:00 »

Well, being a native speaker doesn't mean that I'm automatically right.  I find that one tends not to notice the features of the languages one is familiar with (or maybe it's just me), so some examples would be really nice.  ;)   Also, like you said, it might depend on the variety.  I speak the Singaporean variety of Mandarin, and I suspect my speech might also have been influenced quite a bit by English, which is the language I use most of the time.  

By the way, is it possible, in languages that can freely pro-drop due to affixes already providing the necessary information, for personal pronouns to eventually disappear altogether?  


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« Reply #13 on: 26 May 2006, 05:58:00 »

Mina, you could be right. Your English may well influence your Mandarin, perhaps in a way that wouldn't happen here on the mainland. I must have a look at my Chinese grammars and see if they have anything insightful to say.

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