New styrásh (elvish) vocabulary here!

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[Mina]

Ten languages!  Which ones?  I'm too lazy to learn new languages.  

I was mostly thinking about Semitic triconsonantal roots.  I read somewhere that they are thought to have started out as words derived from ordinary syllabic roots, but later certain vowels were dropped which lead to consonants becoming dissociated from vowels, and caused the consonant sequences of those derived words to become regarded as roots themselves.  What you cited sounds like an even better example though.  Would you happen to have a translation for it?  

As for the language being resistant to change, the generally long lifespans of elves might help with that.  I think there would probably still be some changes here and there though, even if the elves were consciously manipulating their language, just not that quickly.  

In any case, I'm not an expert on elves, so I don't really want to speculate too much on what can or cannot work for Styrash specifically.  That's for Rayne and Artimidor to decide.  I'm just here to provide some background information and talk about linguistics in general.    

[ishmaelion]

*to-eti-mo-ber-et-is 'they carry me' is composed of:

to : proclitic, adding a sense of direction to the verbal root
eti : conjunction marker, always in Wackernagel position, indicates that the verb is part of a new semantic sequence (i.e. a new sentence)
mo : first person infix pronoun
ber : the present tense verbal root!  meaning "carry"
et : third person plural ending
is : relative marker, indicating that the agens of the verb has been mentioned before

In two centuries the following occured:
to-eti-mo-ber-et-is > to-ti-m-ber-t-is > to-s-m-ber-t > tabairt
 but for example the non sentence initial form of this verb:
to-mo-ber-et-eti > to-m-ber-t-et > to-ver-s-et > do-veirt

I won't go into the reasons for every change, but as you can see the word changed quite a bit. 

I learned Old Irish, Middle Welsh, Middle Breton, Middle Cornish, Hittite, Sanscrit, Hebrew, Old-Saxon, Old French, Middle Dutch, Gothic, Old English, Old Norse and improved my Classical Greek and Latin. What can I say, I like dead languages...

P.s. sorry if this post was a bit off topic...

[Mina]

Thanks for the translation!  

And that's...a lot of languages.  

Edit: You know, looking at it more closely, it seems almost polysynthetic.  Certainly didn't expect that from an Indo-european language.  The Wikipedia entry on Old Irish is unfortunately lacking in detail about its grammar.   

[Rayne (Alýr)]

Did the issues here regarding compound words for basic concepts get resolved?  I don't see an resolution in the discussion..

[Mina]

Well, Ishmaelion and I seem to agree that it's not something a human language would realistically do, but might be possible for something spoken by a nonhuman species.  Ishmaelion suggested one way to make it work for Styrash: having the language be very resistant to change due to the elves consciously keeping it mostly the same.  This obviously doesn't work for humans; despite the all the effort prescriptivists put into trying to halt language change, languages just keep changing.  But elves are not humans, so maybe it could work for them. 

As I said though, I don't think I'm really qualified to comment on whether elves should be that different from humans.  You know a lot more about them than I do. 

[Rayne (Alýr)]

That sounds good: very useful to know. But that wasn't quite the issue we were discussing: recall that we were trying to decide which words should or should not be created--specifically, if words like "blood" and "stars" should be compound words or should have their own word. Naturally, these are probably rather ancient words, fundamental to life and elven nature. I believe that they should probably have their own word, and not be constructed from other words.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

I've given my reasons why I think that words like blood or star can very well be composed words, however, in case this causes you sleepless nights, Rayne, feel free to change it. The question however remains, when one should be allowed to compose what words and when not and what to do with lots of other already constructed words.

[Mina]

Would it be acceptable for you guys if there were both roots and compound words for such concepts?  As I mentioned near the beginning of this discussion, real languages do contain synonyms. 

[Rayne (Alýr)]

I've given my reasons why I think that words like blood or star can very well be composed words

Were there any reasons you gave that I did not address? I thought I made a pretty good argument, but if you think I responded incompletely or incomprehensibly,  please let me know. I feel my argument is very strong, and don't want my ineloquence to get in the way of conveying it. 

The question however remains, when one should be allowed to compose what words and when not and what to do with lots of other already constructed words.

Well, I already made a proposal in that regard:

I think the words for "caravan", "corset", and even "store" would probably be constructed in Styrash, as they are 1) not related to nature and 2) not frequently found in elves culture/society.

Constructed words should be used to relate things that are part of elven culture and nature to things that are not, not to relate things that are more distant from elven culture/nature (gems) to things that are closer (star).

Would it be acceptable for you guys if there were both roots and compound words for such concepts?  As I mentioned near the beginning of this discussion, real languages do contain synonyms. 

I don't mind synonyms; I think there may already be a few in the dictionary.

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Ah, well. Synonyms are fine with me, there could be a version of words that judges the appearance or the function in combined form (in case of the stars and blood) and there could be another word. That's ok with me, but complicates things unnecessarily if you ask me.

I see more merit in a unique approach like an oligosynthetic language than a copy of a human one in general - after all we're trying to make the elves a completely unique culture, so why just copy what is common for in human languages?

[Rayne (Alýr)]

To be clear: my issue is not that there are constructed words. It's about what words are roots and which are constructed.

[Bard Judith]

Not really a language expert here (Dwarven is pretty much based on my main mother tongue with direct transliteration), and not taking any sides.... but...

I think Rayne's general and light-handed principle of considering elven philosophy and connection with nature when deciding whether a word is root or construct is a fairly effective tool to use.   We need to 'back-story' the language while remembering that philology recapitulates philosophy.     And trying to think from a non-human perspective is also a useful principle to keep in mind.

  Sooo.....just for example, when I was designing specific words for ThergerimTaal, I didn't just give them North, South, East, and West....two-dimensional directions....but actual three-dimensional orientations that allow them to move in pitch blackness beneath the surface of the earth.  Dwarves have a specific word for 'upwards 90 degrees, outwards 45 degrees, and 45 degrees to the right' (sort of the position your arm would be in after snapping off a salute, or pointing out Venus in the morning sky.... )

Elves would probably have 'root' words for anything that exists naturally, and more of them than we would (Korean has one word - hobak -  for 'gourd vegetables', which we distinguish with 'pumpkin', 'squash', 'acorn squash', 'zucchini', and 'eggplant', among others...)   while they would certainly need to construct more 'civilized' or 'alien' concepts.   Depending upon when an idea/thing entered their culture, those new words might morph to roots over the course of time.   Many of our Greek and Latin morphemes are firmly embedded in English, and we frequently use them as constructive elements.

Just my two sans there, and hopefully helpful to the discussion.

Hugs all round, and a plate of doch nut cookies while you are chatting,
Judith

[Artimidor Federkiel]

Ok, suggestion: Let's have some root words then and use the existing composed ones where they are out of place, say, as poetical synonyms, which can refer to the same thing in the proper context. Like a human poet would refer to a star maybe as "glittering skylight", so an elf might also have a poetic version like "miés'efér". Such constructed words can exist aside from the regular roots and are known to follow the dominating oligosynthetic tendencies Styrásh is known for. Yet in cases when no synonyms, but regular words are composed, the root words serve as the basis.

[Eldor Delrossa]

Just a couple of words that I created for developing purposes:

linénlón (m.) - grove (lit. "little forest")

náfrefér (m.) - ember (lit. "fading fire") 

Náfrér'linlón (m.) - The Grove of Embers (lit. "Ember Grove")

Note: I'm not sure if proper nouns get defined as masculine or feminine, but Náfrér'linlón would be masculine if they do.

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