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Author Topic: Counting Undead as a Race  (Read 5394 times)
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Darkest90
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« on: 21 January 2002, 22:00:00 »

Well, I've thought Undead as intelligent beings, not evil or good, maybe just naturally chaotic, though they can learn to be lawful.

Ok, here is what I am proposing to make Undead feel better and more respected in the World of Sorren.

When there is a dead body, apart from others, around a good ammount of element-full Wizardleaves... something called a Natural Reanimation Phenomenon (NRP) occurs. The Wizardleaves, upon this rare action, die instantly and devour any small close-by plants. The corpse is filled with the energy, its soul returns to it, and it is reanimated.

No blood may flow, no neurons may go through the brain, so how do these guys work? Well, normal undead work on Necromantic Structures, and they are animated by necromantic powers which can be broken if they are injured right down to the soul, which breaks their Necromantic Structures.

But, the corpses reanimated by NRP are stabilized by Natural Structures, which allow their soul to breathe new neurons into the brain, and letting natural electricity flow through the nerves to control muscles, but no blood flows.

The NRP Undead, which I call Ghouls... aren't controlled by any person, they have a free will. They may sleep, or drink, or eat, but it won't do them any good, for they are dead. Their Synapses do not release anti-pain or pain... they are all out of that... they do not need water or air or anything.

To be killed, the Ghouls must have their head cut off... not across the forhead but across the neck, because even though a slice through the forhead will half the brain, it still partially works. Only when the spinal cord is seperated the Natural Structures fall to the ground, dissapearing, and their soul goes up into Heaven/Ava's Realm.

The Ghouls also take on a chaotic animal personality, since they are animated from natural energy and not sentient energy.

***Tribes and Castes and Such***

Ghouls naturally bond with eachother, their Natural Structures act as a beacon to attract other ghouls. After enough NRP occurs, ghouls will have formed into Tribes or Clans... about 10, good enough to start searching the world for answer.

When around enough Natural Structures, the energy inside triggers almost an Undead Puberty... which makes them have the urge to discover, and naturally the Ghouls follow eachother in their tribes to try to figure out how they came to earth and why they did.

Ghouls, upon reaching this Undead Puberty, are able to use some of the spare Natural Structure to form a link with another. At first this link starts as a Telepathic Connection between eachother, so they can talk between their minds. Slowly, these links will grow so attracted to eachother that both Natural Structures bond together... along with the Physical Body... Two-headed Ghouls are a rare sight but 'merging' almost always happens eventually.

The Ghouls Tribes have a few castes that they have formed. They lick themselves occasionaly to keep from molding and to resist rot. Keeping of the body is always the first thing with ghouls, as a week without keeping body-parts together will result in breaking apart. Licker-Ghouls are taken good care of, and they are specialists in taking care of other ghouls. In return, many ghouls use herbs to polish the dead tongues of the ghouls and keep them healthy.

Warriors are also needed, many wild animals can sense rotting meat and scavengers try to eat them. Warriors also have cut their flesh off of their hands, and carve their bones to make claws on their hands. The Warriors bond small body parts sometimes. A no-handed Licker means a two-clawed Warrior. Undead Warriors can be very dangerous, their flexibility and endurance is unmatched.

Herb-Ghouls often find the uses of herbs and concoct potions. They can sniff out any herbs and they sometimes make scrolls of different ingredients to be used.

Mage-Ghouls are the rarest, a few Ghouls have been able to practice magic and enchantments, whether from finding a spellbook or finding a magical talent bestowed upon them when being Reanimated. Wizardleaves can deliver to much energy, creating raw talents such as Pyrokineses, Hydrokinesis, and other skills. Psychic Ghouls are more common then Ghouls who use real magic, and sometimes more powerful.

***Habits and Religion***

The Ghouls build totems around their camps, with fires and shelters and such. They live very happily when they are settled, and though they cannot multiply to make their camps larger, they build Totems and Fires to try to attract other wandering Ghouls.

The Ghouls believe they can ward off rot and danger if they scatter sand across their base and draw markings into it. Some marking tell stories, and if a band of Humans would stop to look at it for a moment, they might try to make friends with the Ghouls instead of raising a sword at them.

***

That's all I have right now. I know it will probably seem a strange idea, but its turning out cool.

This isn't a race, I'm just redoing the Undead in my own fashion.

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #1 on: 21 January 2002, 22:21:00 »

Alright, I made a few points in the Beastiary on this too. Aside from the Not Accepting Races thing, there are two things that I think should keep them seperated from Races.

1.They are dead, and were created from someone of a certain race after death, so they wouldn't be a different race just because they died.
2.From a Cosmological viewpoint, I don't think Queprur would allow people to naturally be reanimated. While her clerics or necromancers could summon back souls to serve them, I don't think it would happen randomly. And even then they are intelligent undead, but they are bound to the person who summoned them so much follow commands. As for Demons on this point, they are soulless, but intelligent. However, they too are dead, so are not really a race in their own respect.

Pyrokineses, Hydrokinesis, and other skills. Psychic Ghouls are more common then Ghouls who use real magic, and sometimes more powerful. I also have a problem here was we do not use the term Psychic. We use the term Mentalist, and mentalists are the best for controlling raw elements, that's a bit difficult, but they can do things like telepathy and such. Then I just have a kind of probably with regular undead being magic users. While they may have odd abilities where their screams are super potent weapons, or like demons they control a certain thing that's linked to them, they aren't like living mages where they learn spells and such, it's just natural.

Then there's the simply fact that, as they are dead, most people would be freaked out and hunt them down, and without a necromancer to be afraid of would probably suceed.

Only when the spinal cord is seperated the Natural Structures fall to the ground, dissapearing, and their soul goes up into Heaven/Ava's Realm. I suggest you read up a bit on the Cosmology. Ava doesn't bother with Sorren anymore, it was jsut one of her many dreams. Queprur takes care of the dead, peeling their souls from the sphere of existence or some such.

What we really need to remember is that Undead were once people who lived in Sorren or some other world and not seperate entities, so even if it wasn't evident they would have at one time belonged to a race, or been a mage, or whatever. While their body may be ravaged by death, or they are simply souls that warped flesh of dead bodies to use as avatars (like the Gamosh-Ra, or Chasm Demons). They should have some residual left over from their life which would have something to do with their undead abilities. I guess Thuja kind of got me under his sway in thinking that each race would produce a certain type of undead, at least when they were recently dead and raised so they weren't too decomposed. If they were dead so long they were decomposed to a certain point they may be skeletons, specters, etc.


I'm not trying to crush your creativity or anything, but Undead probably just belong in the Beastiary. And as one of the bigger demonologists here I feel a certain connection.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

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Darkest90
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« Reply #2 on: 22 January 2002, 00:05:00 »

1.They are dead, and were created from someone of a certain race after death, so they wouldn't be a different race just because they died.

"Not the ghouls... and I shouldn't have said Race I should have said tribe, or a group. But intelligent things don't belong in the Beastiery."

2.From a Cosmological viewpoint, I don't think Queprur would allow people to naturally be reanimated. While her clerics or necromancers could summon back souls to serve them, I don't think it would happen randomly. And even then they are intelligent undead, but they are bound to the person who summoned them so much follow commands. As for Demons on this point, they are soulless, but intelligent. However, they too are dead, so are not really a race in their own respect.

"Who said Queprur summoned them? When their souls are traveling to her realm, maybe another God... Eyasha, Arvins, or Seyalla or some other... would take it back saying the soul had something else in the world. Before death, maybe the enchanted leaves around the body tied the soul to it, so Queprur couldn't grab it.

Also, no one summoned them... Except the gods, and gods control everyone, so what's stopping the ghouls from being like other people?
And I'm not talking about Demons... I'm talking about a breed of undead."

Pyrokineses, Hydrokinesis, and other skills. Psychic Ghouls are more common then Ghouls who use real magic, and sometimes more powerful. I also have a problem here was we do not use the term Psychic. We use the term Mentalist, and mentalists are the best for controlling raw elements, that's a bit difficult, but they can do things like telepathy and such. Then I just have a kind of probably with regular undead being magic users. While they may have odd abilities where their screams are super potent weapons, or like demons they control a certain thing that's linked to them, they aren't like living mages where they learn spells and such, it's just natural.

"Yeah, I've heard of Mentalist... I forgot to use the term. Why can't undead use magic? There are no rules to magic saying that only mortals can use magic. And these aren't normal undead, they can learn, as long as their brain doesn't rot away. Plus, most of the magic is natural... I said Natural Magic at one point I think..."

Then there's the simply fact that, as they are dead, most people would be freaked out and hunt them down, and without a necromancer to be afraid of would probably suceed.

"Come on, what if they live on some uncharted forest island? There has to be a place where there is a few miles of forest or desert... and these aren't your normal undead, these are super-genetic strange thinking undead phenomenons... I'm not saying they are immortal, but they match a human with a sword easily. And with their bizzare Mentalists, Mages, and Warriors, they'd hold off a while..."

Only when the spinal cord is seperated the Natural Structures fall to the ground, dissapearing, and their soul goes up into Heaven/Ava's Realm. I suggest you read up a bit on the Cosmology. Ava doesn't bother with Sorren anymore, it was jsut one of her many dreams. Queprur takes care of the dead, peeling their souls from the sphere of existence or some such.

"I have read up on Cosmology, but no one said "Now Ava is gone" or something like that, they just say what happened when she was there. You need some more time lines in your information. But, I guess I should read up on Cosmology a bit more. I'll get to that soon."

What we really need to remember is that Undead were once people who lived in Sorren or some other world and not seperate entities, so even if it wasn't evident they would have at one time belonged to a race, or been a mage, or whatever. While their body may be ravaged by death, or they are simply souls that warped flesh of dead bodies to use as avatars (like the Gamosh-Ra, or Chasm Demons). They should have some residual left over from their life which would have something to do with their undead abilities. I guess Thuja kind of got me under his sway in thinking that each race would produce a certain type of undead, at least when they were recently dead and raised so they weren't too decomposed. If they were dead so long they were decomposed to a certain point they may be skeletons, specters, etc.

"Yeah, if you were magic, you got magic. Mentalist, you are a mentalist. If your strong your strong... That part is taken care of..."

I'm not trying to crush your creativity or anything, but Undead probably just belong in the Beastiary. And as one of the bigger demonologists here I feel a certain connection.

"Undead deserve to be respected. Queprur has all the respect she needs... there HAS to be a way this could work, even if I have to tweak the idea a thousand times."

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #3 on: 22 January 2002, 04:44:00 »

I haven't read through all of it but the only possible solution that might work would be to integrate such species as weaker kinds from the Netherworlds(the place where the Demons live).

Tarquet, you once developed a system of the Death Realm of Queprur. I bashed you down as I saw it not fitting the Goddess of Death very well but I still think in some way or the other it might work out as a general, mythical outline of the Netherworlds...

Just some suggestions how to go further.

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--One Sword might make you a warrior but a dagger in your boot makes you a winner!--

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Greybark
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« Reply #4 on: 22 January 2002, 10:03:00 »

I like some of the ideas, I don't like others of the ideas. Reading with interest and will comment more once more is figured out.


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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #5 on: 22 January 2002, 13:39:00 »

The problem is that souls don't "travel" to Queprur, she grabs them and takes them off of the sphere of existence. So there wouldn't be a chance for another God or Goddess to intervene, and I doubt they would, or Queprur might start another War of the Chosen.

And as far as I can tell, Ava is gone. She dreamed the Dream, created the Gods and Goddess, the Tree of Life, and Sorren, then went on.

As for them using magic, I just don't think they should. They are not living creatures anymore, they should have more limitations than living creatures. Their bodies have started to decompose, or are decomposed, and have lost most of what they had. While a warrior might be a warrior even after death, it's doubtful that it would show. Liches are dead, but through magic have preserved themselves and never actually died, but transitioned into undeath through magic. Wizards who actually died then came back might have a certain power, but not enough to do magic.

And still I don't see how they could, like I said, Queprur wouldn't allow random reanimation, so it's really a moot point as to what they could do if they did come back.

Koldar, I did have that idea before, though I did drop it. Now Art is kind of helping me with my idea, and so is Greybark, that it's more the underside of Sorren where demons and such come from. Is that the same thing as the netherworld?Kind of Queprur's soul depository, I suppose.

I understand that you aren't talking about Demons here, Darkest, but Demons are undead too. Whether they begged Queprur for flesh, then used the strength it brought to return to Sorren, or if they were summoned, it's mostly the same result, except that those summoned must obey who summoned them. I see this as the way most undead do it too, either getting a skeleton or rotting body, then getting back to the surface, or being summoned.

As for the thing about Necromantic Structures, is this saying that the Necromancers like build an avatar for the souls they summon? Not really. They may have dug up a body for it, or a skeleton, but sometimes they just summon the souls as a specter. They deffinitely don't build anything, and it's rather easy to destroy those with bodies, since you just have to destroy the body for the soul to leave. As for specters, you probably just have to slice them in half with a sword.

I'm not saying that undead shouldn't get a certain respect, or that they aren't intelligent, but they are beasts. At one point they were a race, but they died, and return as a servant either to who summoned them or a servant to the promise they made to Queprur. They kind of just lose that thing that made them what they once were and fall into the catergory of Beast instead of Race. We have intelligent beasts, but they don't have the little extra spark to take them into Race.

One thing that really must be remembered is that all kinds of undead are rare today. Demons especially, but undead in general are not common, at least not on Sorren.

Tarquet Galbar,
BeastMaster Of Santharia
Creator of Weavers
Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 1/21/02 7:54:19 pm
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Darkest90
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« Reply #6 on: 22 January 2002, 13:51:00 »

Ok, so they don't have souls. Maybe they have something else, lets call it a spark. Its taken from the Wizardleaves, and this spark acts as a substitute soul.

Ok... they don't use the Living Magic, they use something else to do magic... Ghoulish Magic, a different brand of magic unlike others.

It doesn't require lip movements, just thought and a bit of Ghoul Mana. Ghoul Mana is generated from their totems, from fires, and almost any element. So, standing on a large rock you would gain a little Earth Mana for every minute you are there. Sleep or Meditate their, it generates faster. As the ghouls get the certain mana, they have a feeling that grows inside them.

Sleep by a fire, in the morning, you feel hyper and energetic.
Sleep by a boulder, in the morning you feel subtle and powerful.
Sleep by a creek, in the morning you feel gentle and happy.
Sleep by a tree, in the morning you feel sturdy and powerful.

But, spells they cast, maybe just creating a small fireball, would take so much Fire Mana away it would leave the ghoul tired, so you'd have to sleep by the fire for atleast three days and eat by it also to get enough to cast a small fireball and feel awake.

So, I filled in the holes, now give me some more I can fill.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #7 on: 22 January 2002, 13:57:00 »

General question: Are the Netherworlds the origin of the Higher Demons then? Or are they becoming your Underworld, Tarquet. I just thought it would be another plane of existance....

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--One Sword might make you a warrior but a dagger in your boot makes you a winner!--

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #8 on: 22 January 2002, 13:58:00 »

That would deffinitely be something a Necromancer could do, reanimate a body using Wizardleaf, but how would it happen naturally? It would take more than just being near one of the plants, if they have to take something from it then they'd have to be alive, and if it's just a body it couldn't really do that.

Koldar: Maybe we should find some way to pull our ideas together. Perhaps it's the physical underside of Sorren, but there's the same type of barrier between the two as there is between two different planes.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Chronicler of the Rahaz-Dath Mercenaries

Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 1/21/02 8:01:44 pm
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Darkest90
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« Reply #9 on: 22 January 2002, 14:12:00 »

That would deffinitely be something a Necromancer could do, reanimate a body using Wizardleaf, but how would it happen naturally? It would take more than just being near one of the plants, if they have to take something from it then they'd have to be alive, and if it's just a body it couldn't really do that.

Okay... the Ghouls don't take the 'spark'... the Wizardleaves give it to them. But it would be rare that a corpse would fall near a patch of energy-full Wizardleaves... so there are very few ghouls.

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #10 on: 22 January 2002, 14:25:00 »

I still don't think they should be a race. Maybe an intelligent beast, but they would have been a race at one point, after they die they aren't anymore. Perhaps you should submit Ghouls as another beast.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #11 on: 22 January 2002, 15:30:00 »

Sounds fine, Tarquet. I was reffering to the current entry on the Netherworld beasts where the Netherworld is mentioned. Just don't know if there were a plan for them only knew that demons are comming from this "planes".

We already have some kind of barrier between two "worlds"(or whatever with Mythe so maybe this could be the same with the supposedly position of the Netherworlds being 'under' Sorren?

Just some free ideas, if you don't like them, no problem at all. :)  

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--One Sword might make you a warrior but a dagger in your boot makes you a winner!--

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #12 on: 22 January 2002, 16:24:00 »

Alright, well I'll check out the thing on Mythe and the Netherbeasts, then work up on entry for the Netherworld as a seperate world on the underside of Sorren. I'll mail it to you before I post it, since you're the Netherworld guy.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Greybark
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« Reply #13 on: 22 January 2002, 23:32:00 »

I believe Ava is still around, as its supposedly her dream. When she wakes up, the world ends, according to Art.

Of course, the vast majority of Brownies would have nothing to do with such nonsense.


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Darkest90
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« Reply #14 on: 23 January 2002, 17:11:00 »

Yeah, who says the Elve's and Human's religion is right? There may be a whole other system (probably not).

But, that's what I thought, that Ava's Dream has to go on until it ends, in which every single soul is deleted from the universe, because you can't die when the dream is ended.

Cosmology... ugh... Ok, gonna change my name now

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