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Author Topic: Avennorians (Here Capher)  (Read 16963 times)
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #30 on: 13 August 2002, 15:22:00 »

I understand what you say, but we are creating a world here not writing a book right? I mean, how can you write a book with so many people and so many different points of view, it can't be done, well, not in a short period of time at least.


As for the Avennorians, it's ok, I'll swithc them to bilateral no prob there. Like I said, I wasn't usre how they looked like in the modern day.

Atrimidor, Capher, i think we all agree about the seashell buildings, I think we are arguing about something that we all have the same point of view. As an example, we all said that only the richest and more powerful would be able to have their house made out of seashells and whale bones, as well as important buildings, historical, holy, and/or traditional buildings too. So I think we do not need to argue about this point any further or we will look silly arguing about something that we all agree upon. LOL

Like I said Artimidor, I too like the idea of a seashell/whalebone castle and manors, but you would need magic to do it, it could not be done unless the seashells themselves were magical.

From Artimidor:
"We could anchor the Avennorian society deeper in the belief of Baveras, Goddess of the Sea, so that seashells have a very high importance for the Avennorians, a religious importance if you want. People know that the sea renews their lives constantly and as a sign of this natural process they could make the seashells parts of their homes, which they ritually expand and/or renew at the Feast of the Blessing of the Seas, which they celebrate annually.

Nowadays maybe much of this tradition is lost, but maybe there's still this famous seashell castle in the capital, which people still adore... "

sounds ok to me, maybe such a magical process is lost too. Maybe only some very unique persons could now build such things since the Erpheronian invasion and it would take a whole adventure just to find one of these persons. What do you guys think? Souns good no?

Oh, and Capher, I would like to put some words or sentences in bold or italic sometimes, but I don't know how. :
lol

I have updated the values and kinship according to what you say and may have added one or two things. :)  

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #31 on: 13 August 2002, 15:30:00 »

Except that that's what all these entries are about, writing a book. The Compendium was written by Arti in Santharia, big sage dude. The entire Compendium is a book, and the entries should be treated as an entry in it.

And it's a compliment, Capher.

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Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 8/12/02 10:30:55 pm
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #32 on: 13 August 2002, 23:21:00 »

Next stop is language, I think this part is going to be very interesting to all the WB. :)  

I really added things to the Values and Kinship like I said in my last post. Just a thing or two. ;)  



Language: Language bonds groups linked in the far distant past but now separated by distance and lifestyle. This is perhaps the most crucial element for constructing cultures, since language is indicative of how people thinks and expresses its thoughts. Common language roots produce a related pattern of thought, and manifestations of this tie can appear in the way people act or in the objects they produce.

       The first thing the WB should do when dealing with this element is to construct a language tree showing the original tongues and all their offspring. Ideally, this will be a drawing with lines representing the steps along the families’ branches. This gives the WB a picture of what language are related and how closely; he more steps along the branches between two tongues, the further apart their ways. Should two languages derive from altogether separate families, the associated cultures normally have tremendous difficulty in communicating and understanding each other.

       A society’s setting and subsistence patterns act to affect language over time. After all, an experience with something gives insight into its details, and new words and phrases are adopted to explain the specific concept. Cultures with no life experience might have no word or only a general word for the idea. In such a case, the details might escape them, making peripheral ideas hard to explain.

       The following rough methods can help the WB construct the basic pattern of a language, and might spawn more detailed vocabulary and grammar should the need arise. One or more charts with headings and columns covering these points prove invaluable.

A)        Language tree: Draw up a language tree keeping in mind the place where the base tongue originated, and noting the type of culture that first employed it. That setting and associated lifestyle should affect the way the language family was first conceived.

B)        Mapping tongue: Assign the language to specific cultures located on your world/campaign map. Those whose lifestyles are similar and/or intended to be related in race, spirit or locale might use related tongues.


C)        Dialects: Then connect each tongue’s linguistic sub-groupings (dialects or archaic tongues) to segments of society. Certain classes and isolated sub-cultures often embrace their own dialect.

D)        Literacy: Based on the society’s technological level, note whether there is any form of writing, and to what extent it is employed. Distinguish between differences found in the written and spoken words, accounting for the various dialects and any forms of ceremonial or shorthand (cursive) writing.


E)        Writing forms: Note the writing form of major literate language groups. Consider whether they use pictographs, abstract symbols to express whole concepts, a syllabic alphabet, a phonetic alphabet, etc. A sample graphic might help.

F)        Sounds: Give each major language groups some unique features, such as the use of certain consonant or vowel sound combinations to express specific concepts. Note how plurals might be formed, or words combined.

G)        Vocabulary and grammar: Then embark on specifics, such as the vocabulary or grammar of a given dialect. Keeping in mind the overall scheme of the language family, use a few basic foundations, such as a series of “root words” to tie together other words expressing similar or vaguely related concepts.

Remember, in terms of game play communication may be the key to survival in certain cases, and a number of language families and sub-groups can allow for a tremendous variety of campaign situations. A simple misunderstanding may produce a fight or a friendship where none is intended.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/13/02 6:24:17 am
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #33 on: 14 August 2002, 04:38:00 »

Well, to be honest: I personally don't think that this kind of language details will be very helpful at the current stage of development of the tribe. I'd say: Concentrate on the more important things which will be essential to build places on this site and for the MUD. Too much focus on your World Builder thingies leads too much away from what we need here, and proves counter-productive at the moment (I guess most members of the Santharian development team think likewise - tell me if this shouldn't be the case). You can use your World Builder thingies if they support our current scheme, Feanor - this should be your main intention. We need to have progress here in the next weeks, no general discussion about life, the universe and everything.

Many things of this World Buidler scheme may be useful to a much later time of development, at the moment this seems mainly irritating, at least to me.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 8/13/02 11:40:05 am
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Capher
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« Reply #34 on: 14 August 2002, 05:40:00 »

As I have stated in a different thread Art I agree.  I was trying to be kind, but I was wrong.  Feanor, lets just drop this thing now.  I was an experiment anyways, and its not going to work.


I am terribly terribly sorry for all of the trouble I have caused, forgive me Art and the team for being shortsighted.

Capher.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #35 on: 14 August 2002, 13:38:00 »

Hey, no need to stop working on the Avennorians - I only want to emphasize that it is necessary to set priorities, what we really need. Parts of the world building system sure is helpful, but it shouldn't lead to scientific analysis and things like language details are pretty unimportant at the current stage of development I'd say (see also Gean's discussion at the General Santharian Discussions thread). But the Avennorians need to be elaborated nevertheless.


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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #36 on: 14 August 2002, 14:24:00 »

Well, if you want to build a culture, you need to build it step by step like that. It tough, but it makes it look like a real culture like if it was part of a reaal world! So when we're going to read the Avennorian for example, we would think that these guys exists for real somewhere. That's the whole point of the CB, to make the cultures look real. But it's mostly for structure, pertinence, realism, and logic above all. I like to have structure in a world, without it, well, I think you probably know where the world will go if it doesn't have any structure. :)

I don't mind, I'll keep working on it on my own on my pc, and if you are interested to see the final version, just tell me and I'll post it here.

I don't understand why you say that it's a waste of time because you cannot build communities and talk about a people without knowing its culture first. anyways, your the booss. :)   But I really don't understand why you say that building a culture is not important at the moment, especially language, which is one of the foundation of a culture.

I'll try to figure out some town desc for Chrondra, but I don't guarantee anything, it's going to be mostly random things that I think, and I will use the little info I have from a primitive tribe description and the little info I was able to get in this topic.

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Thuja
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« Reply #37 on: 14 August 2002, 14:27:00 »

I will be rude.  I have finally followed this thread after my initial input.  This program to make a culture to describe an area and whatever else it does is great if you want a sterile world.  To use it for hints and ideas is great but the ideas fleshed out and any others should come from what is between a persons ears, not what some unthinking program says what should be where.  If a person works out an area and says there is not some mineral or fertile land or what ever than that is what it is.  Having someone come back later and saying that there is but you don't see or know it is there is not acceptable.  Or worse saying, according to this program, something has to be there because several thousands of years ago there was such and such making it so.  I can not accept this.  I don't care if the program says 10K animals died a day in a certain place so there must be oil.  If a person says there is no oil there is no oil.  Besides this person has not written that that these animals died here so therefore it can not and did not happen.  I don't care if there is a diamond the size of a persons fist in a farmers yard, as per a program statement.  This diamond does not exist until or when a person writes about this farmer digging a well and finding a diamond.  Even then the writer must come up with a reason the diamond is there in the first place.  It all comes back to imagination is what makes a world.  If there are problems in a certain area that is where the other people come in.  They ask question or show ideas, problems or what ever to help make the idea more workable

I do not like this heavy reliance on magic to make, find or do everything.  It is available and co-exists in a fantasy world but magic does not a fantasy world make.

You say you have vast experience in world building, then prove it.  Show us what YOU can do.  Anybody and slap a few words onto a program's output and say "Look at my world, isn't it wonderful, isn't great?"  Isn't it damn boring.


"In a place like this, the magic is all around you, the trick is to see it."

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #38 on: 14 August 2002, 14:40:00 »

Well, of course you can build your own language trees for the Avennorians, own dialects, specific grammar and whatever, Feanor, providing you first elaborate the Tharian tongue in detail along with all it's modifications from day X till now. This will keep you busy for at least 3 years or so. Of course it would be fine to have, but we need to set priorities.

If you play Baldur's Gate for example and meet another character like a gnome for example and he talks to you in simple English, the RPG player usually doesn't question why this guy talks English with him. Of course you can build a whole culture on such a detail, and it is fine if it is done and works. But thinking practical common sense tells me there are more important problems at the moment than drawing language trees. These important things in order to build a rough culture have already been predefined by our scheme. Once again: You can use parts of your world builder system to make these sections richer in detail, but should never forget, that we have no intention to get into so much detail at the moment that all other world developing issues of a tribe have to be put on hold, because you give priority to a language tree, which - for our current world development scheme as well as for the MUD in progress - is of no relevance at all. Think practical, set priorities.


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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #39 on: 14 August 2002, 15:49:00 »

Screw Baldur's Gate, play Neverwinter Nights. Not for any real examples or anything. It's just awesome.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Capher
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« Reply #40 on: 14 August 2002, 15:51:00 »

Art, what updates do you need on the Avennorian's?  I searched all over the site and see my original entry.  Is that what you need updated?  If so, how or what are you looking for?

Thanks

Capher.

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« Reply #41 on: 14 August 2002, 16:01:00 »

Date fixing, 10000 to 5000 approx. and elaborate more details in all sections if possible (perhaps with parts of the World Builder concept, but don't make too much scientific work from it). E.g. Resources, general things about People, also propose a change of the Coat of Arms to something more simple (we never get that on one CoA *grin*), more detailed descriptions of the territory etc. Just to have more details on which we can base towns etc.


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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #42 on: 15 August 2002, 01:05:00 »

Hey! Thuja, I,ll be rude too. >:

Are you an ..... or what? Are you blind when you read? You said you followed the thread, well, I don't think you had, because if you had, you wouldn't have said what you said.

SO I WILL REPEAT MYSELF A THIRD TIME FOR THOSE WHO BUMPS INTO CONVERSATIONS THAT THEY DID NOT FOLLOW (Not to mention that Artimidor said it too):

The CB is posted in the Maps and places in the Chrondra topic entirely, there is no program nor any software or any tables I roll on, it's semi-professional and everything I've wrote about the Avennorians of Manthria is pure imagination and logic, nothing was taken from anything except my imagination and the notes on the primitive Avennorians found in the "Races" on the SD site. Period!!!!


Now,

as for what you say Artimidor, yeah, it's a real big job, but we will only need to make the language tree of the avennorians and make a quick overview of their language without going into specific details as grammar and pronounciation. Only the tree so that we know where their language came from and how different it is from others who came from their father land long ago. But I'm pretty sure that only the backwater village and isolated towns still speak Avennorian, the rest would speak the language of the Santharian kingdom. Why? Because Avennoria is too small to retain it's own language and will be easily assimilated by another more dominant culture AND because they were invaded and conquered. So through centuries, the Avennorian merchants, rich and powerful began to speak the Erpheronian tongue (nobles were Erpheeronian so they already spoke that language) and when the Kingdom was made, one language became the language everyone used in Santharia and that's the one that is used today in Manthria.

Only small coastal villages and isolated inland villages still uses Avennorian language commonly, other than that, it's mostly a ceremonial language used in ceremony and religious rites.


Well, that's the overview I have of the MODERN Avennorains. It's logical and realistic, they are losing the war in keeping their language like any other conquered country in our world and will require either independance or a law that will make them highly resistant to the loss of their old language.

Well, that's what I think the language should be in the time santharia is now, dunno in the future though, it might completely disappear, only found in recordsm dunno, depends on what happens in the future.

that's all for now, asn for the language tree, it's pretty darn easy to do, takes only one hour to make, you just take the first nations and tell where each cultures came from linking them with lines and which one derived from which one and voilà! You've got yourself a language tree. :)  

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 8:09:02 am
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Dala Valannia
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« Reply #43 on: 15 August 2002, 01:24:00 »

Finally got around to reading this thread AND the Chondra one.....I don't agree with Feanor's CB or World Building format either, my reasons for rejection is basically too that such a format takes away the spontaneity, fun and 'soul' of a hands-on creation.

But I do think Feanor, reading through his replies, did try to make an effort to try and bring his points on the advantages of such a format across, only his tone was rather overbearing like when he told Viresse that he knew what's good for a fantasy world and what's not and more than a little condescending in the Chondra thread......*shakes head* Feanor, I have no doubt that you have a great deal of experience in world-building but in Santharia, you are still a relative novice so do please try to refrain from making 'sweeping' statements in the forum :  

Art and Capher considered Feanor's entries, discussed them reasonably, and thus giving him a fair chance before deciding his ideas won't work for Santharia. And I think this should be the way. Honesty and forthright opinions is of course a good thing when discussing a new concept but please remember that it's also easy to hurt someone else's feelings unawares and tactfulness can spare a lot of eventual unpleasantness. Tact from BOTH sides, alright? Tarquet, it's not really helpful when you tell someone to stuff it and go back to their own little world if they don't like it here :b   Blunt yes, but not condusive in the least :lol  

There is no good or stupid ideas, just a difference in how one perceives them.

Feanor, your format does save a lot of time and effort in the long run, but the same advantages becomes its failings. I think your entry is sufficiently good in some respects but lacks the human touch. Your format requirements to build a race/culture is too restrictive, rigid and mathematical imho. It's kinda hard for me to explain my own views on this, but look at it this way - a machine can produce a thousand chinese paper fans in a minute but compare those factory produced fans to one single fan, done by a craftsman in a year and there's bound to be a difference. Not to the eye perhaps, but in the way you feel when you hold the hand-made fan and see all the personal touches and details that the craftsman had put in and a machine can't.  

Edited by: Dala Valannia at: 8/14/02 9:06:43 am
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Dala Valannia
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« Reply #44 on: 15 August 2002, 03:32:00 »

Re-read your culture building list Feanor and I have to emphasize my original view that while it is detailed, it's also VERY lengthy....to a person who delights in minute details, I'm sure the format will suit him/her to a T but for the general masses, it is sometimes unnecessarily complicated. It's not boring precisely....but it is a little kinda control-freakish, if you don't mind me saying so :lol  It's good that a culture should be fleshed out as much as possible but you have to remember that you're creating a culture for others to read and hopefully enjoy and if you have pages and pages on how the race grows wheat or rice etc, you simply won't be able to substain the readers' interest. It'll be like reading a textbook on agriculture and not a stirring fantasy tale based on the created culture.  

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