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Author Topic: Avennorians (Here Capher)  (Read 16982 times)
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #45 on: 15 August 2002, 09:53:00 »

Well, all my cultures that I've made with the CB are from two to ten pages long of hand written text, meaning like one to six pages of text in Word, so it's not very long, but very complete. If you want to know something about these guys, you got it there.

well, it's simply that I am tired of seeing things half done, I always make my things complete. Like some dum games like Wizards & Warriors on pc, or Airport Tycoon, are good example of unfinished products. I'm pretty tired of that and try to make everything that I do complete and not half way or three quarter way there. That's why I like the WB, once your through with it for a culture, it's complete, you don't need to come back later and find something's missing, maybe add new things but nothing is missing.

The only problem in making cultures it's the time in the world. A culture can last as long as a country exist or as short as a a centuries. So making cultures in a fictious world is very long since you must do each and every culture that existed since the first nation down to the last on the timeline. Using the CB cuts that time in half but increase difficulty for making them though, but in the end, it's very rewarding.

But since you are making more a book than a world, I don't mind randomly creating things here and there in the world as long as it respects the guidelines offered for something. I don't mind not using my culture builder either, I was just trying to show you something great a really excellent tool, but it seems you don't need it, so I'll put it back where it was and keep it for those who would like to build more a world than a book. :)

So I'll simply go back to Chrondra, forget about all that was written here and in the Chrondra topic and start to do things more or less randomly based on the description a primitive tribe that no longer exists because it's now the kingdom of Santharia not Avennoria. You really need to make modern versions of the cultures, no way the cultures are the same as they were back then. Think about it. :)

That's all, excuse me to have wasted your precious time, I'll simply go back to my chrondra and hope for the best.

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #46 on: 15 August 2002, 15:34:00 »

Well, Dala, my tactics really work better in person with a baseball bat. :evil

And, Feanor, I really don't think you're in any position to be criticizing games that make millions of dollars. Seriously though, what the hello is that? Airport Tycoon not a complete product? It's just like all the other Tycoon games, but with a different thing to build! You expect them to have height, weight, age, nationality, and favorite breakfast food for all the little people? Maybe names? Or perhaps it should be more realistic, where all you do it choose A. B. or C. to boring questions in a board meeting about whether to put a Starbucks or a McDonalds in the open slot at the food court? Geez.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #47 on: 15 August 2002, 22:51:00 »

Hey tarq, bugoff, don,t talk about things you don't know

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #48 on: 16 August 2002, 01:40:00 »

Oh, I see, so now you're also a big producer of video games and can judge what is and is not complete? Yea, well, when you do something better, then I'll consider your opinion. Until then you're just the same as all the other critics who whine about this or that.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #49 on: 16 August 2002, 02:00:00 »

*shakes head* First to Tarq:     Please  try to be a bit more sensitive in certain situations - maybe there are other ways to express a certain point of view as well. You've also made Wren very angry lately, and I'm sure this isn't what we all want, right?

*shakes head* to Feanor as well. I think you take things against your person here, which is something maiking it pretty difficult as you don't see the arguments anymore people post here in order to tell you that it is more constructive to not follow the World Builder thingy just for the sake of following it. Taking things in a personal way results in completely unnecessary counter-attacks, of which we here at the Santharian Dream have been mostly spared in the last three years. If you call the current scheme "primitive" this doesn't sound very respectful and constructive, but as if you'd have to deal with such "crap" (this word probably is what the current creators hear when reading your posts), only because people don't like your super-mega-excellent scheme.

Anyway, I'd be careful to tell others that I've made the best of all RPG systems in the world and that I have found the absolute truth concerning culture design (even if I would be convinced of that myself). There     are rules here which have developed in the course of time, and there     are good reasons (no random ones) why they exist this way (though everything can be expanded of course, only at the appropriate time). So you should take into consideration that the concerns of more than a single person you can read here and at Gean's General Discussion thread are indeed justified.

The language tree is a good example, why the scheme won't work here. I've posted that, but you don't seem to listen. Do you know which language was spoken by the Avennorians or the Erpheronians, the Northern Sarvonian tribes? What languages they spoke in ancient times and which one today? Do you know what the Tharian tongue is in fact and from where it derives? Any idea what other humans speak on other continents? Is there a same root or not? Know why elves speak another language than the humans?  What is it that myth tells us concerning all these questions? As I've said: Answering these questions alone would keep you busy far too long so that I won't see a productive progress concerning the things we     really need. And as far as I see other comments hint in the same direction. Do you see them as well?


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 8/15/02 9:07:14 am
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"Between the mind that plans and the hands that build there must be a mediator, and this must be the heart." -- Maria (Metropolis)
Viresse
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« Reply #50 on: 16 August 2002, 09:27:00 »

*looks around. Doesn't like where this thread is headed... whines in worry of upcoming events, but keeps mouth shut*

http://www.klintorth.com/images/misc/vir.gif">
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #51 on: 16 August 2002, 10:14:00 »

Well, I said primitive in the sense of cave man, not in the sense of "crap" Artimidor, because the tribal description are for the people that lived in Santharia hundreds if not thousands of years ago, sorry, I thought you understood what I meant.

Well, making a language tree isn't that complicated, like I said, you don't need to give all the reasons now, you only need to put names and lines that link each culture to its ancestor, it shouldn't take more than an hour to do. It's just to give an origin and to see how close languages are from one another. Like in modern Santharia, everyone would speak the same language today with traces of their old language of the past while just north of Santharia, another language would be used, much like Europe. Santharia being France and England north of Santharia, then the Scandinavians further north, etc. Just by making the language tree, you wil lbe able to know who can understand who, no way some complete stranger coming from the far north will know the language of a people down south, just look at the native americans, the Inuits we talked about earlier spoke a completely different language from the Aztecs and even some of the North American natives, but we all know that all the different languages of our native americans have probably the same roots. So by knowing how far from each other the cultures are, it will show us how hard it is for one culture to understand the other. And if you are writing a book and not creating a world, well, it would be even better if we make the language tree, it would look scientific and if left more or less simple will look as if some guy of the middle-ages would have made this, much like Tolkien did.

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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #52 on: 16 August 2002, 10:22:00 »

Okay, you asked for it.

Airport tycoon is like a screen saver, what you see on the screen isn't what happens in the game. So let's say you see a plane land on the screen, in the game there might have been four that landed and took off. The only use the graphical portion of the game has is that it allows you to build buildings. And Tarq, we all know what it is to be a teen, we have all been there, we think we know everything, but we don't.

Wizard & Warriors is a very incomplete game, several areas of the game have been "canceled" as well as having this selection problem. Selection problem is that when you want to pick up an item, you must find a certain point on the picture of the item, not a surface a dot, on the surface of the item to pick up and then try not to move the mouse to pick it up with a click. So imagine how frustrating it is to pick up a small coin or ring! almost impossible.

Another incomplete game, even though I hate to say it, is a game called Super Powers, the game is very incomplete, lacking many aspects having a truck load of bugs and can only be played for a year or two of game time before the game completely goes out of hand and absurd.

I could go on for a very long time, so you see, I do not say things without reasons like someone else here. They are not words thrown in the air.

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #53 on: 16 August 2002, 15:38:00 »

Again: I'd like to see you do better. Until then your criticism are just like that of everyone else.

Tarquet Galbar,
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #54 on: 16 August 2002, 16:21:00 »

*stumbles over the thread again, sees worried that it goes more and more off-topic, wants to go but cannot do without a final comment*

Tarq, Feanor, I'd appreciate it if you both woulf stop barking at each other and instead shut up! If you've nothing constructive to add to the topic say nothing at all.

That would ensure that both of you at least look smart!
"It is easier to keep your mouth shut and pretend to be clever than to open your mouth and prove the world the opposite." (Quote from someone I right now don't remember but something you both should seriously consider)

Sorry if you take this statement a bit harsh but that is exactly my current impression about both of you.


I'd say get back to topic and that is mainly about that culture builder and the Avennorians. That is something mainly Capher and Feanoir have to deal with but Feanor as you might recognize from others people I'd suggest to think more open-minded in using it. It is still my opinion that this tool is at least interesting and when you want to use it, none will search your HD so... ;)  I just see it like Art that many of these details you seem to need for it are far from important for Santharia right now so either ignore them or fill them with some assumptions.
Other than that I can only suggest to not take anything said too personally, it only expresses the worries about peoples who care about this world, nothing more but also nothing less.



So I'd like to see the next post in this thread to be better constructive or knightly Koldar will go and get some hell of a big barbarian greatsword and will start to get ...
annoyed.. ;)



Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!

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Dala Valannia
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« Reply #55 on: 16 August 2002, 20:09:00 »

*Dala pats Viresse's hand comfortingly and tells her 'there there, don't worry, it's just male hormones I'm sure'*

Feanor, it's obvious you take a lot of pride in your CB format so understandably, you might feel that our recent comments is unjustly harsh. You say it's fine that Santharia needn't use your format but then you give long explanations and rebuttals and end with apologizing for 'wasting our precious time' when no-one accused you of doing so......I'm sorry but I can't help but feel you're taking this very personally indeed like Art mentioned. You shouldn't. We're not saying your format or language tree is bad or useless, they are very good and detailed in their own ways, only that they're merely not suitable for Santharia.

Tarq......three words.....just walk away!! C'mon, I'm sure you're man enough to do it. Okay, I know Feanor got your heckles up (with good reason at times) but you got in more than your fair share of punches since then so trust me, you're not gonna be labelled a wimp if you just.walk.away.now.

Okay, I know Art and Koldar already basically told you guys to shut up and pipe down (and so did I, only more nicely :b , in an earlier post) but I'm adding this because I don't want Feanor to feel that we're being unfairly critical to his ideas and nor do I want Tarq to feel that all of Santharia is against him. No-one is taking sides here, we're impartially pointing out that BOTH of you two are acting like a pair of immature blockheads!




Edited by: Dala Valannia at: 8/16/02 3:12:16 am
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #56 on: 16 August 2002, 21:29:00 »

I had problems posting but now it's okay, I think I wrote something the ez-boards thought of beint an html code or something

Koldar, as usual, you are right. Anyways, I don't want to know what that big conan sword is doing, beside, you're too high level for me and I'm no warrior, I'm just a baron... although, if you are a Santharian knight, I could order you around. :lol  ;)

Here is what I thought for the language tree

Is Dala Valannia Goddess of wisdom and justice in Santharia? Because if she ain't, she should. She speaks wisely and just. :)

Seriously, Dala sounds nice for a goddess' name, no? :D  Dala, goddess of wisdom and Justice. hehehe

Well, I cannot help you with the language tree because I have no idea where the language come from, but what I can do, is give you the language tree of the Avennorians.

Language tree (without the lines lol):

Fatherland --- Colonial Avennorians -- Pre-Chosen war Avennorians -- Renaissance -- Northern Avennorian
                                                                                                                            -- Southern avennorian

-- Northern avennorian -- Manthric
-- Southern Avennorian -- Brandolanic

See, no big deal, took me two minutes to make the language tree! Plus an additional ten minutes to explain and voilà! I don't see what all the fuss is about, how can you built cultures without knowing what their language went through?

Here is the explanation of the origins of the different dialects:

Fatherland is the initial language of the first waves of colonists that went to the land now know as the province of Manthria in Santharia.

Colonial Avennorian is the language of the settled colonist three or four generations after their arrival in this new land. New fruits, vegetables, animals, events required new expressions and names and with the local population's influence later on made the Father Land's language to be altered much like the american colonies of all four countries in our own world in the Americas(England, France, Spain and Portugal).

Pre-Chosen war Avennorian was the equivalent of english after the independance of the Unite states, much has changed and since their lands have expanded southward, new things, people and even creatures were encountered altering even further the language.

The renaissance dialect appeared after the rebirth of the kingdom of Avennoria when Marcogg was rebuilt. By that time the old father land dialect has completely disappeared and the colonial avennorian dialect might only be found in the oldest and secluded parts of Avennoria.Pre chosen war dialect is still used among the commoner after the new dialect was born but gradually disappeared.

The Northern and Southern dialect appeared after the erpheronian invasion. since the Avennorians were no longer in power, and with the Erpheronian influence, their own language began to fade away to be replaced by the erpheronian language among the nobles, rich and powerful of the province. Soon, very few still spoke the renaissance dialect and no other dialect survived the invasion except this one.

The Manthric dialect is the moden day language of the Avennoirans in Manthria. It's a mix of erpheronian tribal language and the Avennorian renaissance dialect. Renaissance dialect is only used as a ritualistic and traditional language in temples and academical establishments much like latin in our own world.

Brandolanic is a degenerated version of the erpheronian language mixed with both the renaissance dialect of the Avennorians and the local clans and tribes that lived souther that the Avennorians. The Brandolanic dialect is different from the Manthric dialect, but if no one used their slang version of their language and spoke properly and correctly their language both could understand well each other. Much like the English and americans, Quebecers and French, spaniards and Mexicans, etc, in our own world.


See, took me ten minutes to create this and write it, no big deal or fuss. :)

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/16/02 7:41:59 am
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Lancelot2001ca
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« Reply #57 on: 16 August 2002, 21:34:00 »

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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #58 on: 19 August 2002, 17:55:00 »

So what do you think?

I have maybe a couple more of ideas but I'll wait until you tell me what you think.

As for taking this personal, well, try to keep your cool down when people barge into your conversation, and begins to talk about something that has already been resloved as well as having people wasting forum space with  unhelpful approvals and nno new ideas or comments and they blame you for this and that. So, do you think I have reasons to be upset? I think some people should roll their tongue ten times in their mouths before postiing, or at the very least, not posting things that have already been said and dealt with. From now on, I will ignore any unhelpful posts and posts that talks about things that have already been solved.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/19/02 12:56:53 am
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Thuja
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« Reply #59 on: 20 August 2002, 02:25:00 »

Language Tree?  I thought Artimidor wanted us to concentrate on elaborating other more and needed areas?  Guess I misread this several times.  Since it is here anyway the biggest question I have, when is the "renaissance" period of Santharia/Sorren?  I am not familiar with this as a part of this world's culture.  As a matter of fact, renaissance is a time period for our world and I don't think we should bring it into this world.  


"In a place like this, the magic is all around you, the trick is to see it."

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