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Author Topic: Avennorians (Here Capher)  (Read 17278 times)
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Feanor the Grey

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« Reply #75 on: 21 August 2002, 22:44:00 »

I'll answer then in your own post. removed first lline 'cause it's a personal thing and has nothing to do with the subject though. :)

(I do not know how to put things in bold in a forum, so I put the things I say in () after each of your paragraphs.)

"On the subject of language (not that I want to drag it out, because I don't feel it to be overly important at this juncture)

Language is Vital to the Dream. Tolkien made his world for the languages to exist in.  (ya, I hear you, you're right here)

However, fantasy worlds are not real worlds. While much of what we learn in RL applies, much does not. (That's where the thing I said about real life and Realism applied, sorry for the confusion, it had nothing to do with the language further down your post. :)   )

In Tolkien's World Quenya, the language of the elves is given, and all other elven languages evolve from this. Tolkien never entered into vast discusscusion about how the languages of men came to be or where they came from.     (elves had more than one language in tolkien, although Quenya was more frequently used I think, I should check my Middle books for that. :)  )

OK........So Santharia. First remember the Avenorrians are an ancient tribe. Santharia itself is now rather Like the UK. To be Avennorian in the modern Santharian World is rather like being Scottish or Welsh. You have a cultural identity as an Avennorian, but only a few of these people maintain their own language (the exception to this is the far south, But that's for another discussion).         (I already said that Manthria was no longer Avennoria and was pretty much like every other provinces in Santharia minus some exceptions due to the original Avennorian people there, in a previous post early in this topic.)

If you look at languages like Welsh, Gealic, ect, where cultural identity has been maintained for several thousand years, no clear language trees can be drawn. One can say they are Indo-European in origin. One can even analyse them and say that Welsh is probably closer to Breton than Gealic is; but there are NO certainies, No Right answers.         (Yes, but in the case of the Avennorians, they have a distinct history, maybe dark and mysterious to the common folk in the modern day due to the Erpheronian invasion, but some scholars, sage and temples might still have records of the past that were hidden from the Erpheronians. They are not just little scots or welch, they are much like the vikings at a smaller scale, they were great at one time, but are no one now except people part of a bigger country.)

You may if you wish, do as Talia did, create a linguistics journal, where you may write theorys, articals ect.      (I think that's what I'll do when I'm at that level of detail . :)  )

Where Language trees are useful are in later languages - Tharian the common tounge of Santharia (English basically), where tounges have been combined recently enough for their evolutionary roots to be clear.      (Language trees are necessary for every cultures, from the first people who invented language to the end of time. So you can know if someone from a certain place can understand someone else from another place, and the difficulty of understanding each other. Each step a language takes apart from a sister language makes it even more distant to it. etc.)

I would suggest any language in use earlier than 300 b.S is really traceable, and thus must be treated like a Celtic language. Tharian, however, will be identifiably the language of the Epheronians (if you treat this like Old English) and then start saying that the celtic elements of Tharian are from other languages absorbed as King Thar expanded his empire further south. But that is another discussion and I would be happy to take it further elsewhere          (If everyone in Santharia came from the same place, they must have different dialects and their language must be different a lot, especially before Erpheronian invasions. While today, most people would speak Santharian. I say Santharian because it's the kingdom btw.)

Language and Historical detail are interwiened indelibly. A human with a knowledge of Linguistics and a detailed understanding of events in the language area will be infinetly more accurate and logical in creation of such trees. Besides that is what this is 'A World In Creation'. We do not use computer programs because ultimatly it is imagination that drives this project. Science and Logic have their place, but they are no match, in this world anyway, for magic, literary talent and imagination.           (That's the part where you should have skiimmed through previous post so you wouldn't make me upset by repeating things that have already been solved. That is why I said and think that you didn't read the previous posts, you just give the proof here. No hard feelings though, just don't do it again please, I'm getting tired of this. :)   I never said I used a program, read the topic in full, at least my replies.)

Anyway that's my two pennies worth.

Summary for thos Lazy tykes - I personally feel language trees are only applicable to Tharian onwards. I therefore feel this debate to be out of place and suggest language debate on aforementioned Tharain tree to be taken to language forum and would prefer it take up no more space here.        (Ok, but we're not doing any large scale things here, we're just doing Avennorians, not the language tree of the world. We only need to know how well they communicate with other people, that's the use of a language tree in the first place.)

That's all, I don,t question your integrity or your capabilities wren, but by doing just as I did, will help you understand my post earlier, sorry if it upseted you. :)

Feanor the Grey

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« Reply #76 on: 21 August 2002, 23:04:00 »

Oh, ok, no prob

But I'm truly only pissed at people talking about things that have been solved a week ago, nothing else. Really!

Just put yourself in my shoes and try to keep your cool when people barge in your nice debate and begins to talk about things that have already been taking care of, I don,t think you can do it for long. That's what pissed me off, nothing else.

If that wouldn't have happened, I wouldn't be upset and pissed at all now.

We can continue to workd on the Avennorian with my CB only if people STOP barging in in the topic with things that have been solved over a week ago, if you guys can do that, I will keep my cool.

Like I said in another topic, I LIKE a good debate, but not when people are barging in like I explained so many times. I repeat over and over so the ones who didn't barge in the topic yet don't start over this s..t again.

I'm pretty tired of this too, so can we go back to work now and ask people NOT to barge in without the full knowledge of our topic and things that are discussed in it please, I'm not asking for the moon here.

Sorry, Wren if I was a bit harsh and cold, but understand and try to put yourself in my shoes, would you like people doing that in your own topics? Not saying that you did it seriously, it was just something you mentioned lightly here in a post. Like i go into one of your topics in a whatsoever thread, and start saying nonono, it can't be, you go it all wrong, this can't be, and one week before, all agreed in your topic that this would be worth a try or would work or whatever by everyone else but me. It has nothing to do with your post truly, only the drop of water that spilled the vase actually.

I don't ask for excuses, only that anyone that wants to say something follow the entire conversation or AT THE VERY LEAST, ask others about what you want to say if it was said before or was dealt before, first to save forum space, second, not to start bad arguments, and third, to waste everyone's time and energy. And for me, fourth, to piss me off. lol

so I am not angry about what you guys say about the language and all, it's  about people barging in conversation with no or very little knowledge about what has been said.

For example, all, or almost all, people who have posted since my topic on Chrondra all knows that I'm not using a software or anything  when we talk about a Culture Builder. And at the beginning of this topic, I explained to Viresse that the Culture Builder is not a software. So stop bugging me with that please. Pretty please... :lol  

That's all that I have to say, and if the barging continues like that, I'll simply work with Artimidor, Koldar and maybe Uragel, since I have their icq. Not to mention Capher since he's the master of the Avennorians. And stop posting in the forums since some people are doing thindgs like that. God, is that too much to ask? Have I barged in a conversation without knowing the entire tipic first? no, I don't think so. So why people are doing this to me? dunno why, must be a past bad deed I did when i was younger. lol

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/21/02 6:10:30 am
Feanor the Grey

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« Reply #77 on: 21 August 2002, 23:13:00 »

Not fixed Capher, improve.

Beside, your description of the Avennorians are for the primitive Avennorians, not their modern descendants, you need cultures for the modern day, not cultures that died off or are in the process of dying off.

Just need to make a modern day Avennorian, what he looks likes, what are his beliefs, what is his daily life, etc. Nothing more or less. :D  

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« Reply #78 on: 22 August 2002, 10:23:00 »

Oh pants.

Well apology accepted. I don't wish to drag this out longer. But you are still unwilling to accept that I have any kind of point worth making and I think that I have some vaild arguments which you have not touched on. And to be honest I still feel rather talked down to!

*leaves thread or this is just gonna drag on*

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« Reply #79 on: 22 August 2002, 11:27:00 »

*knew that this was going to be like this, from her first post, has thusly said little*

well, Feanor... The reason this is a message board is to post our opinions. True, some don't read the entire thread, as some believe it to be a 'continuing conversation' instead of a mass of information laid out chronologically. I read threads as a conversation. I don't know if anyone else does. New people come into the conversation, and give their opinion. Some may not have read, and then you can point them to Exactly what it is you're talking about, instead of yelling in frustration.

The first half of this Conversation is in the Chondra thread, that makes things even more confusing. I'd hope you can give some slack. The only way we know where the first half is is Only becuase you're shouting at everyone.
Also, the fact that a single entry is over four pages is a bit intimidating, people don't have the time to read four pages.

Yes, this would be the part where you say " Well, if they don't have the Time, they shouldn't comment." And then I say " Well, that's not what this is about. It's about creating an entry that all of us can enjoy without fear of retaliation for expressing our opinions."

Usually with new info, we post it onto the First thread, so people don't have to scroll all over the thread to get info. If you could do that, I'd be happy, others would be happy becuase all the source info would be in ONE place.

I'm really trying hard not to be mean or cruel or brash or anything. That's not the kind of person I am. I've done myself a favor and kept myself quiet throughout this thread, which means I still have a cool head, and am able to comment without emotion cluttering my words.

Although I do have to say that I dislike you, as anything you post either insults a longtime member and elevates yourself to a "Holier than Thou" status, or another entry for the Avenorrians when people haven't resolved the issure before it. It's very frustrating to see you anger others with your shouting and irritability, and then Others anger you for some reason I am unclear with.

Perhaps you should not have been so ambitious with this entry. Tribes are hard. The fact you are inexperienced with Santharia will make it harder. And the introduction of the seemingly information-laden Culture Builder pits you against those that have created cultures with only templates and our imaginations.

Or maybe it's us. Maybe we're too fantasy-laden, and so full of ourselves. We're way too pompous and arrogant to want to deal with your work, and we are luddites who hate any form of change.

Either way, something needs to change. I'm sure you agree. But as you are here in Our world, dealing with Many of Us, who have never had problems like this before, I don't know if it's going to be us that will change, Feanor...

*sighs. Fears this will do little, and eagerly wishes to close the thread...*

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Artimidor Federkiel

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« Reply #80 on: 22 August 2002, 15:16:00 »

Yup, thread now closed. At new threads only polite people may enter - please get your politeness tickets at the Forum entrance! :D  

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