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Author Topic: Avennorians (Here Capher)  (Read 17042 times)
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Viresse
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« Reply #15 on: 08 August 2002, 23:48:00 »

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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #16 on: 09 August 2002, 01:24:00 »

No worry, Viresse, nothing against you or what you say. Anyways, whatever you say, I'll listen more than anyone else since you are Mod of this forum and everyone likes you so much in the SD team. :)  

forgot, thanks Artimidor for the links to these maps. :)  

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/8/02 8:25:50 am
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« Reply #17 on: 09 August 2002, 04:34:00 »

Third time (I keep on repeating): All entries in Santharia are written from the position of a Santharian local, gathered in the book called the "Santharian Compendium", published by Artimidor Federkiel (a Santhalan sage) in 1660 Santharian time (see entry). No Gods write entries in this tome.


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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #18 on: 09 August 2002, 14:47:00 »

LOL, okay

anyways, it's only for reference, it's not something that is going to be official you know. :)  

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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #19 on: 09 August 2002, 22:43:00 »

I was being quite helpful, I was helping a friend. I'm sure you're quite angry that not everyone is saying "Oh yay, the nice man who has so much experience is going to teach all us stoopid newbies how to do things right!", but that's the way it goes now isn't it? Not everyone reads through all the forums all the time, and since other people got to have their say on the world builder subject in the other thread, then what's wrong with others having their say here?

And until now you never said anything about it not being a program, you never explained anything about it at all. You apparently showed it to Capher, maybe some other people, but I never got to see it, neither did Viresse. So don't go complaining about how no one else knows anything about it, because that's your fault for not explaining it.

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« Reply #20 on: 10 August 2002, 04:45:00 »

Well, Feanor has introduced his culture building concept in the Chrondra thread in the Places Forum.


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Capher
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« Reply #21 on: 10 August 2002, 06:40:00 »

Hm... Feanor, I am not quite understanding what you are doing?  Are these posts just research for the final entry or is these what you are planning on putting in the final entry?

I am somewhat confused.  I hope they are just research.  The Avennorians were a human species, though ancient, nevertheless they were and if by fisher folks, you are describing people who live off of the ocean, then you have the correct idea.  If however you are implying they are some kind of wierd species just because of their genetic ability to dive under water and handle pressures of the deep much more than ordinary humans then you are wrong.

As far as the resources in the area, for research purposes, I suppose there could be petroleum, but they would not know how to drill for such things and I do not believe they would even know what to with it if they did find it.  To them it would be a death trap if it was near the surface, somewhat like an oil bog.  We use other types of oil or candles to give us light in Sarvonia.  Oil of whales is what the Avennorians use because the ocean is where they use and recieve most of their resources.

Look up the Inuits, or Eskimo's to understand where I got my idea for the Avennorians.  They have not been swallowed up by the local population, or by their conquerors.  They are still a very simple people living like they did thousands of years ago, albiet some have adapted to technology and use them, but for the most part they still live the way they always did.  I just added some things to make the Avennorians special, and to be part of the world of Santharia.

And by the way the motherland of these people are in Northern Sarvonia and came from the descendants of the Naval warriors of Fa'av'aclar led by Glandor.  Which, after the war, settled on the far eastern shores of Northern Sarvonia and built the port of Glandoria among other towns and villages in that area.  See the Exodus of the tribes after the destruction of the Elven empire Fa'av'aclar.

Thanks, oh yeah one more thing.  The dwarves live underground, they are the ones that would know about any mineral veins, not the Avennorians.  Though I believe Bard Judith and I were discussing ways for them to trade between the two.

Remember above everything else the Avennorians and Santharia is a magical place, anything can happen.  Even people living in homes built out of nothing but finely crushed sea shells.  They crave beauty and wealth above everything.

To live in a home where the sun shines through and you live in a perpetual rainbow would be an Avennorian's dream. But because of the expense, only the richest of them could do so.  Imagine a city built of these homes, when the sun shone upon them it would radiate a rainbow of colors you could see for miles.  That was and is my idea of what Marcogg (their Captol city) would look like by an outsider riding up for the first time and seeing the city.  Just imagine it.  Close your eyes and just try and see it in your minds eye.

I think that is what Tarq and Viresse and the others are trying to tell you.  To create something, magical like that, you need imagination, not just the resources.  Don't take away the imagination and the dream by letting your desire for logic to overcome imagination.  There are many things today that cannot be logically explained, for example the "Great Pyramid" cannot be logically explained how it was built.  But we know it was for we can see it.  We can admire the structure and wonder how the ancient people of that time built it.

That is how I envision people when they take a look at the Santharian Dream  They would not know how it was done, they would just admire and be awed by the imagination, beauty and wonder of it all.

Thanks for listening to my heart.  

Capher.

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« Reply #22 on: 10 August 2002, 17:12:00 »

No wonder everyone likes you, Capher. :lol  

And yea, I know where he introduced the concept, but it wasn't explained, just that you could build cultures with it, and that it would make things easier.

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Edited by: Tarquet Galbar at: 8/10/02 12:14:08 am
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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #23 on: 11 August 2002, 00:57:00 »

Capher, read the full CB doc in the maps and places in the topic about Chrondra, you'll understand perfectly what is meant by fisherfolk here.

By the way, the inuits live in the far north, and are not living in a temperate or sub-tropical region squeezed between several other cultures. Besides, the inuits are not colonists, they have been there since the last ice age, are alone in their ice lands and in contact rarely with their southern brethren. So no, it would be very hard for a small group of colonist to retain their culture after several thousands of years, that is why I proposed we found an alternate solution, like mass colonization of the area that was then decimated by the chosen war cutting pop in two, so returning to a more acceptable amount for the region, then the war with the elves would have sucked their last inch of power until the Erpheronians broke their back and put Erpheronian nobles at the head of the province.

The Avennorians still exist, and probably still dream of their indepedance some day, we could invent a secret society that works against the kingdom, which would make it even more realistic and add a little spice to the region. :)  

Just to tell you that I didn't plan to change the Avennorians much, just look at the town map of Chrondra (dunno if Artimidor posted it somewhere though) and you'll see lots of hovels, these hovels are made the Avennorian way, but other larger more durable buildings are made in modern ways. Let's face it, what would you say to the people of one of the states of the USA that was still iving in the style of the 17th century? I think the other states would laugh and try to modernize it, no?

Same thing here, there are probably traditionalists in the province of Manthria and also further south, but they would only be found in small towns and all the villages, but the main cities and towns would be modern with a few houses or hovels kept as either historical monuments or sacred buildings.

Well, that' s what I think and see for this topic at least. :)  

I know about the Dwemer..err.. Dwarves (Darn Morrowind, I play too much. :D   ) that they live underground. But even an underground race isn,t omniscient and doesn't know everything there is to know in a particuliar region underground, somethings are always hidden, even from the best. So the hidden assets are hidden both from Manthric Avennorians amd Dwarves. We should include also the hidden resources the dwarves do not share with the Avennorians too, it would be logical, no?

I have nothing against having a seashell house, but you would need powerful magic to keep the seashell's colour and compositions throughout the centuries. These house should cost a fortune, making a house out of seashells... well... you need lots and lots of sea shells. Making a city in this way would depopulate the entire population of shellfish in the region, if not making it go extinct, same goes for whale bones too. Logically, only the most powerful and rich would have a small house made out of seashells and/or whale bones, not everyone. But nothing prevents people from having decorative wor made out of seashells and whalebone in their house, but nothing bigger than a decoration unless they are rich enough to get these things or have the skills and resources to build them. BTW, you don,t mention much about the magic of the Avennorians, just wonder how powerful they could be and how often they use magic, is it common or rare among them? And yes, it would be very nice to have teh capital city all in seashell and whale bones and other sea products, but it would be more a magical city or a an undersea city of mermaids or something like that. If the Avennorians aren't powerful in magic, well, it would make them cartoonish and not fantastic if their city owuld be made out of permanent and understructible and undamageable by time and weather, seashells. Normally, after you have taken out of its water a seashell, it will gradually lose it glint and colour and after a while, will beccome white and brittle. So if you say the Avennorians are powerful magicians, even though they could only have a few very powerful ones too, it will make it logical for a lord to pay a or some wizards to enchants his castle and even some of the rich houses of the city with a durability spell or something that prevents or slows degradation and decay.
So if that is true, no prob for me there. Remember, there is a reason of existence for everything, you cannot make something out of nothing because you simply want it, you must see it through the people's eyes and how and why they would do it. How = magic, Why = it's beautiful. I agree, it's a great idea though. :)  

Will you stop it with imagination and logic! You can't mix up the two together, they aren't the same thing. What I mean is you cannot mix oranges with apples. And if you want to make a world, it has to be logical, or everyone will laugh at it because it would lack common sense and integrity, not mentioning logic. A world can be extremely imaginative, like mine, and still be very logical. So don't come saying again to me that a world of imagination cannot be logical, and especially don't tell me that you want to make things based on imagination and not on logic, because you will be drowning yourself. The only world you could do only based on imagination, is a cartoon world where nothig makes sense, so if some people can't understand that the SD isn't a cartoon world and is a logical living world, not some silly ultra-unrealistic cartton thingy then go back to school or ask your parents or even better, take a dictionary and read the definition of both terms (Sorry, I'm just tired of people that doesn't know the difference between logic and imagination, and worldbuilders that says that they can make a world out of imagitation alone without logic.). Like I mentioned earlier, you cannot have a city made out of seashells that do not perish, if you want to do that, (like you said, the SD is a magical place) you would need magic, and if you want magic, you need a magician, and the magician will need components and many assistants to successfully make this happen, and would require and enormous amount of time (depending on how powerful magic is in the SD) to enchant the buildings, etc. See, it's fantastic to the extreme, but it's still logical and your idea is still there, so don,t come talking about logic anf imagination again unless the creators of the SD are making a cartoon world. I wont argue then. lol

Like you force people to do in the character creation when someone says his character has a mysterious past or has amnesia and doesn't remember a thing (two way thing you know). The player doesn't know these things, or the reader wont know these things, but the dms will know, and the creators will know, exactly the same way you guys tell people that if a player's character has amnesia doesn't mean the player doesn't know his past, same goes for the mysterious background. Every world needs a dm's view and a player's view. Unless you are writing a book, you will need both of these things in the end. Facts a very important for the dm's part, while myths and legends and approx are a must for player version.

In conclusion, if you plan to make a fantasy world, not a cartoon world, you will need logic or it will become cartoonish and incoherent if not chaotic. the Avennorians don't disappear, they just get modern, only the small villages and smallest towns would still have primitive buildings of the sort. Inside the biggest cities, the most rich and powerful would have permanent seashell and/or whale bones decorated houses or mansions with the help of some long term enchantment that needs renewal each ten years or so, maybe less. AND the fisherfolk is a term to say that the people in Manthria's main food industry is fishing supported by some farming and herding and a little foraging.

That's alot and all, be back if you say something more. But you haven't said if you agreed or not in the way I described their subsistance pattern btw. :)  

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/10/02 8:01:40 am
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« Reply #24 on: 12 August 2002, 00:31:00 »

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Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 4:56:45 pm
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« Reply #25 on: 12 August 2002, 00:38:00 »

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Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/14/02 4:57:41 pm
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Tarquet Galbar
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« Reply #26 on: 12 August 2002, 15:42:00 »

Alright, I was wrong, I missed it. I'm one of the people who skipped over it because I didn't want a new format for Santharia. And after reading through it I still don't, nor do I like the culture builder any more than from the start. It just doesn't seem right. Like a mutiple choice test.

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Capher
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« Reply #27 on: 13 August 2002, 06:05:00 »

Tarquet were you laughing at me? When you said that?  Or was that a compliment?

Feanor.  I would like to see how each time you build this it is fitting in with the SD outline?  I have no idea what questions you are asking?  Your posts are so long and so involved that I get confused.  Sorry, but if you could put the your format as in a Question and then possible answers I would under stand better.  

And if you could put your Question in bold type such as Kinship   Then type in your question according to your WB, then the possible answers you are looking for in outline form A,123, B123, Ect.  Then I could help you out I think a little better.

Now as far as the capitol made of seashells.  You have a mindset of what I call "Uniformitarism"  Which is simply used by evoloutionists that claim that as "Things that happen now are how they were in the past"  Which is totally false, (and I do not believe in evoloution anyway. I mean Macro not Micro, ) but to get back to my point.  Just because seashells may lose their color and luster in "Our World" does not mean they do the same in "Santharia."  Just to give a small example.  There are many others I could say but it would take a book to write them all.

Now from an authors point of view, If you were writing a book about Santharia, You would not put in every little detail as to how certain tribes, or cities developed.  Oh, you would put in descriptions of that tribe, or city but just enough to give the reader a picture not a scientific analysis!!!

The author, yes he would know, at least to the extent of being able to write intelligently about that certain tribe or city, but what he knows is not necessarily what the reader needs to know.  The reader himself/herself puts their own imagination and experiences into what he/she is reading along with the authors description.  

They need not know how for example: where the seashells came from, they would just be told that the capitol and some of the more richer people of that city had houses built of them. They would know from thier own knowledge and experiences that seashells come from the sea.  But as to how the Avennorian's built their capitol out of them, they really wouldn't care unless the information was needed to move the story along. They would just accept that what they are reading is fact for this world.

Do you understand what I am trying to get at and what the others are trying to say; Tarquet, Vireese, Art and so on?

Now as far as your question about whether it is Patriarichol lineage or not?  The inheritance's and so forth in the family unit is determined by who was the wealthiest, If you look at my tribal description you will see that either male or female could be the head of the family, or the Monarch of the country.  It was determined by thier wealth and then passed down to whomever the Monarch or head of the family at the time that they died to whom they desired, as historical tradition it was passed down to the wealthiest of the family member, except in rare cases.

At the time of Santhros, (present day) the tradition still remains among the Avennorian's.  Whether they became a mixed culture or not?  Those who adhere to their original lineage respect and follow tradition!!!

Capher.

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« Reply #28 on: 13 August 2002, 11:01:00 »

*frowns at the whole CB thing but reads on*

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« Reply #29 on: 13 August 2002, 15:05:00 »

Well, as far as I see with this seashell problem demonstrates very well two different ways of thinking, but there are always more solutions to a problem, you can't simply put logic against pure fantasy (comic fantasy as you say, Feanor) or the other way round. You should always look for an effective compromise, which gives the whole idea some more magic and life. If you want to put logic in the first place, you won't come far, if you only go for "comic fantasy" without explaining background this won't help either.

I agree that not all buildings should be made of seashells, this would be a bit unrealistic, but having very important buildings constructed from seasheels sounds cool and has the fantastical touch which I prefer. And forget the magic, magic is a high science, a very special thing, not to be used in common buildings.

So I propose a compromise: We could anchor the Avennorian society deeper in the belief of Baveras, Goddess of the Sea, so that seashells have a very high importance for the Avennorians, a religious importance if you want. People know that the sea renews their lives constantly and as a sign of this natural process they could make the seashells parts of their homes, which they ritually expand and/or renew at the Feast of the Blessing of the Seas, which they celebrate annually.

Nowadays maybe much of this tradition is lost, but maybe there's still this famous seashell castle in the capital, which people still adore...


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