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Author Topic: Avennorians (Here Capher)  (Read 16984 times)
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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #60 on: 20 August 2002, 03:55:00 »

Renaissance can be also used as general term meaning "rebirth", here the language used after the rebirth of the kingdom. Other than that it is a good thumb rule to imagine that the Santharian culture equals early Renaissance in many aspects (from technological or social viewpoint).

If you can now proceed with it, Feanor it is fine I guess, at least it looks reasoned to me though I might question your last question: What have you won with the language tree? You describe pretty obvious developments here so I'd see no need to point it out till very late in tribe development.

BTW: Have you ICQ? As I don't want to clutter this thread any more it would be easier to get in contact via AIM, ICQ or IRC, the later also available through webinterface...

Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
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Capher
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« Reply #61 on: 20 August 2002, 06:48:00 »

Hmmm... ok, I see the language tree, but as Koldar stated, what is the purpose of it in the overall scheme of what Art and the others wanted?

Well lets move on shall we?  What is next?

Capher.

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Wren
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« Reply #62 on: 20 August 2002, 09:23:00 »

I hate long posts, cos I don't think anyone ever reads them carefully and thinks about them but I'll post it anyway in the vain hope.

On the subject of language (not that I want to drag it out, because I don't feel it to be overly important at this juncture)

Language is Vital to the Dream. Tolkien made his world for the languages to exist in.

However, fantasy worlds are not real worlds. While much of what we learn in RL applies, much does not.

In Tolkien's World Quenya, the language of the elves is given, and all other elven languages evolve from this. Tolkien never entered into vast discusscusion about how the languages of men came to be or where they came from.

OK........So Santharia. First remember the Avenorrians are an ancient tribe. Santharia itself is now rather Like the UK. To be Avennorian in the modern Santharian World is rather like being Scottish or Welsh. You have a cultural identity as an Avennorian, but only a few of these people maintain their own language (the exception to this is the far south, But that's for another discussion).

If you look at languages like Welsh, Gealic, ect, where cultural identity has been maintained for several thousand years, no clear language trees can be drawn. One can say they are Indo-European in origin. One can even analyse them and say that Welsh is probably closer to Breton than Gealic is; but there are NO certainies, No Right answers.

You may if you wish, do as Talia did, create a linguistics journal, where you may write theorys, articals ect.

Where Language trees are useful are in later languages - Tharian the common tounge of Santharia (English basically), where tounges have been combined recently enough for their evolutionary roots to be clear.

I would suggest any language in use earlier than 300 b.S is really traceable, and thus must be treated like a Celtic language. Tharian, however, will be identifiably the language of the Epheronians (if you treat this like Old English) and then start saying that the celtic elements of Tharian are from other languages absorbed as King Thar expanded his empire further south. But that is another discussion and I would be happy to take it further elsewhere

Language and Historical detail are interwiened indelibly. A human with a knowledge of Linguistics and a detailed understanding of events in the language area will be infinetly more accurate and logical in creation of such trees. Besides that is what this is 'A World In Creation'. We do not use computer programs because ultimatly it is imagination that drives this project. Science and Logic have their place, but they are no match, in this world anyway, for magic, literary talent and imagination.

Anyway that's my two pennies worth.

Summary for thos Lazy tykes - I personally feel language trees are only applicable to Tharian onwards. I therefore feel this debate to be out of place and suggest language debate on aforementioned Tharain tree to be taken to language forum and would prefer it take up no more space here.

*Has a hideous feeling that her (rather good IMHO) will siomply bounce off!*


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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #63 on: 20 August 2002, 12:39:00 »

Yup, I guess what Wren tries to say is, and what I also tried to emphasize from the beginning: Language (and other things you have in your concept) are of importance. Tolkien has based his whole world concept on language, and language sure is an important part of a culture. And this is why it needs much more thought. Building a language tree is not the real problem. The real problem is the general concept, which has to precede later developments of the language, and this general concept has to start with Tharian etc. Language is too important and also too complicated to start it at the end, at the result it produces. But a complete concept requires more attention, that's why I said it's not relevant at the moment, just throwing it out here, if we can't do it completely and thoroughly first.


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Wren
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« Reply #64 on: 20 August 2002, 14:02:00 »

*looks at her summary*

er...... I think I said it pretty clearly all by myself!


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Viresse
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« Reply #65 on: 20 August 2002, 20:53:00 »

you hit the nail on the head Wren. I don't think I could have said it any better myself.

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Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #66 on: 20 August 2002, 21:17:00 »

Koldar, ask artimidor about my icq and mail he has it. :)  


Please Wren, don't talk about htings you aren't sure about like the supposedly program and about Real Life. We already talked about that and I told what I think in bold. :)

BTW, just to tell you that I already said that the modern language of Manthria is the Santharian language in the description of the language tree I think and before that too. no matter. I said that the last Avennorian tongue was used only as a traditional language and religious, much like latin in the medieval period. But most people speaks Santharian, well, almost everyone. :)

You confuse Real life and Realism my dear, they are completely different things. Real life, well, means real life, what happens in real life. While realism mean common sense, logic, etc. If you don't apply realism in your world, it will lack common sense, every action has a reaction, every action has an origin and reason to be, every item has its story and reason to still exist, etc. If you don't apply realism in your world, well, you can say goodbye to it, no one will play in that.

Language tree here was to help understand and help create the Manthric Avennorians.  Now that it's done, I can go further into the CB and make the Modern Avennorians more detailed and real to our eyes and imagination. :)

Thanks for all your HELPFUL comments, although some were just repeating what the other said and some others just repeated things that have been solved a week ago. :(

I'll post something soon thi beginning of the week. :)

Take care all.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/20/02 4:32:49 am
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Viresse
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« Reply #67 on: 20 August 2002, 22:00:00 »

*blinks... frowns slightly*

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Thuja
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« Reply #68 on: 21 August 2002, 03:17:00 »

Thuja opens mouth then promptly shuts it biting tongue.  Shakes head and starts shoving a few things in a traveling pack.  Believes it is time to move on having been to long in one area.  Needs fresh air and open spaces.  Western Sarvonia looks inviting or maybe north to home.

"In a place like this, the magic is all around you, the trick is to see it."

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #69 on: 21 August 2002, 14:18:00 »

Well, what more can I say except: This is not what I want to see to happen with long-time members - that they have to settle elsewehere in Santharia, because you still don't seem to listen to others concerns and also haven't found the politest way to express it, Feanor.

Ok, this is a first warning, Feanor! Try to listen more and respect the work of others. We might get in trouble if things repeat here.

To Thuja: Wren just told me you're welcomed in Sanguia, (in fact she's jumping up and down in excitement;) .


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"Between the mind that plans and the hands that build there must be a mediator, and this must be the heart." -- Maria (Metropolis)
Feanor the Grey
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« Reply #70 on: 21 August 2002, 14:49:00 »

Huh? What did I say???

I didn't f... anyone, I didn't say anyone to go to hell or anything, I was polite, wasn't mean, anything.

And if you are mentioning the thing about the world being realistic, well, just look at Tolkien's work, there is nothing more realistic than his work.

Other than that, I don't see what all this fuss is about.

Didn't I listen to them? Answering all of them doesn't prove I read and understood what they said? I read all of what wren said, and only found out that half her post were things that we already solved in previous post. Like I said before,

I AM TIRED OF PEOPLE BARGIN INTO CONVERSATIONS AND HAVEN'T A CLUE OF WHAT HAS BEEN DISCUSSED AND WHERE THE CONVERSATION IS AT!

These caps weren't angry caps, just a scream and caps so people can read them before posting things that have already been solved one week or more ago. Please don't do that, you are really NOT motivating me to listen and understand as well as putting me on your side when you do that. You're doing the opposite.

Edited by: Feanor the Grey at: 8/20/02 9:56:21 pm
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Wren
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« Reply #71 on: 21 August 2002, 15:14:00 »

To say I feel patronised by the words:

'You confuse Real life and Realism my dear, they are completely different things.'

Is the understatement of the Millenia, and we've only just started it!

All my entries (if you have actually read any) are all grounded in weeks of research of real situation, and my own (fairly good grounding) of Biogeography and Climatic change. Admitedly my first entries are very shakey but the Theahevil River is the end product of months of hard work. How you have the nerve to accuse me of not understanding the place of realism in a fantasy world is beyond me!

In fact, reading your post it is clear that you don't understand what my post is getting at!

I am simply saying that all discussion of human language MUST begin at Tharian and work from there. It cannot work well any other way!

I consider this the end of Language discussion. As Capher said what's next?

P.S Thuja mate, you have a Free riegn - there's Santhala, Vezash - all sorts of stuff!  


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Edited by: Wren at: 8/21/02 4:38:38 pm
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Capher
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« Reply #72 on: 21 August 2002, 15:23:00 »

Okay, I am not a happy camper right now.  I was willing to go along with this experiment Feanor, but when you start patronizing Wren and the other Santharian developers you have crossed the line.  

Just try and do your Chrondra entry with the information you have and what has already been written on the site.  If you need some info about how I, the author of the Avennorian's, would think the city would look like I would be more than willing to help.

But no more, and I repeat no more WB.  Leave it for someother site or your own worlds it just does not work here. If you cannot or are unwilling to do so then....  Well we here at Santharia are always willing to allow people to share their talents, but we also ask for respect from those newbies.  

All we ask is that you follow our guide lines.  It seems to have worked so far.  So why fix something if it is not broke.  That is what my dad always used to tell me.

Thanks

Capher.

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Wren
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« Reply #73 on: 21 August 2002, 15:29:00 »

Well to be fair I don't suppose he realised how badly that actually comes across......But still, What he also doesn't realise is I'm easy to rattle. Arti and Thuja rarely ever loose their cool! So if their cross, I think he needs to examine his approach. There is not always one way to skin a cat!


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #74 on: 21 August 2002, 17:55:00 »

*raises eyebrow, looks worried left and right*

I'm usually not see neccisities for any hard mod intervention but, Art, I'd suggest to close this thread. It has gone terribly off-topic and heated up and leads us nowhere.
I don't see that anything said here can be easily resolved within this thread, worse it only gets twisted and misinterpreted. I would suggest to everyone to take a deep breathe and stand back.
Everything that can be said, was said and wether this was anyhow good or bad there's IMO nothing to add.



Feanor, you might have recognized that the tone in your postings is not taken very positive so I suggest to think about the reason why. I already told you on the rpg-forum more as a joke than in seriousness that you should put away your "too cleverness" and your "sharpened pen". I now say in all seriousness: Put it away, it leads you nowhere and is nothing constructive when used in a heated up discussion!
I suggest that when you feel outnumbered, mobbed, misunderstood or anything else to talk it out with Artimidor, Capher or me via IRQ or AIM.
I can assure you that at least the first two always have an open ear for anyone's concerns! ;)


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
--Santharian Master of Disaster--
One day I'll be the greatest of all Jedi!!

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