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Author Topic: Diorye'oleal Elves Update  (Read 11255 times)
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Wren
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« Reply #15 on: 04 June 2003, 15:36:00 »

While we have all three elves in the same place, I wanna put forward something Koldar and I discussed, he was talking about style but it holds for everything....

I think its very important that the Northern Sarvonian elves be culturally distinct from the Southern Sarvonian ones.

That doesn't mean that I want all the Northern Sarvonian ones to be the same, but that I want certain features that carry through some if not all tribes. They need to be more similar to each other to each other than they are to the Southern Sarvonian Elves, after all if myth is to be believed they are more likely to have shared that common origin in Fav'lar'car (I never spell that right).

Perhaps the Drow can afford to be more diverse, but I'd still like to see certain elements worked through all the elf tribes of the continent - reminants of practices centruries old that were practiced in the Empire.

Do you think we can manage that?

I'd like for tatooing to be common (it isn't in Southern Sarvonia). I've suggested elsewhere that all Northern Sarvonian Wood elves use a pattern of interloking lines in their design (take a look at the Meladrhim picture (his tatoo)) this isn't really utilised in the South....(apart from the Cyrathrhim but they're different). Perhaps peircing? Is there space for any of this to be worked into this tribe? I'd like for Northern Elves to be longer living than their Santharian counterparts (we can account for this by genetic drift - I have the numbers if you like - or by mythology).

Materials - are materials different in the north. And if so how is this reflected in their dress and way of life. remebering its a hell of a lot colder up there.

I suggest that the Rite of Renewal either not exist in Northern tribes, or be far removed from the Southern Sarvonian one (I'll post details tommorrow). This different rite should be fairly similar through the tribes. I'd like to see common festivals in the North. I'm not saying they all have to be the same, but I'd like us to agree one or two core ones that predate the fall of Fav'lar'car that have been lost to the Santharian Elves.

Then there is philosophy. We must decide - with Arti - where northern beliefs will differ fundamentally. And we must hold at least some of this through the tribes. I'd like to suggest the presence of animal guides - each child being assigned an animal most like their own nature - but I'm easy on this....

So yeah. I don't want to force you to do a major rewrite Rayne, but if we're gonna redo Drogo's work we may as well do it cohesively now and decide on these issues so that it needs no further amendment later.......

Did that make any sense?


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Rayne (Alr)
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« Reply #16 on: 04 June 2003, 18:53:00 »

Ok! So to sort of summerize:  Northern elves should be different from Southern ones, and all Northern elves, drows, should have fairly a lot in common since they originated in a common place.

Things that shout be the same among Northern tribes:

Tattooing: I have no objection to making this part of the Diorye'oleal elves' culture. In fact, I think it would really add to their dark, gothic appearance. ^_~

Materials: I understand that the materials in the north and south should be different, but I think there are a lot of differences in regions inside of Northern Sarvonia. Some places are going to be a bit warmer, others a bit colder. I think the Hovel Frond Forest might be a little warmer and drier, mainly because it's surrounded in mountains, so rain doesn't fall too heavily there. I don't know, though. What were your ideas of the materials? More winter-weapons? Like snowballs! ^^

Rite of Renewal: I'm not sure what this is... o.o;; ::absent-minded expression::

Religeon: I think the idea of animal-guides is a good one. Perhaps there could be some connection with animal guides and ritualistic tattooing? What sort of animals, though? How will the elves worship? They're drow, right? Dark Elves? So it seems like they would primarily worship Cor. I don't know, though.


Sorry If I don't get everything at once.I'm new to this elven-tribe making, but I am learning a lot, and I love all the feedback and information I'm getting. ^_^ It's very helpful indeed!

It might take me a while to get everything updated. It's Hell-week at school, the last week before finals, and I have a ton of projects and essays... ~_~;

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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Dala Valannia
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« Reply #17 on: 04 June 2003, 21:37:00 »

I was going to suggest using this www.jeshannon.com/pics/watch.html picture from John as an example of a Diorye'oleal elf since the lady looks suitably chilling and gothicky with her pike weapon and the subtly menacning forest ambience is just beautiful but then the suggestion of tattoos came up so...scratch that!

Gothic elves, I love the images this conjures up! Damn, I really want to write a Diorye'oleal tale but I have an essay to finish first :(  

Btw, Enayla draws really gothy vampires and elves...I wonder if she's still willing to allow us to use her art...?

www.epilogue.net/cgi/data...l?id=21244

www.epilogue.net/cgi/data...l?id=23529

Even if she doesn't, just go and enjoy the rest of her art at her homepage www.furiae.com/ :)  

Edited by: Dala Valannia at: 6/4/03 5:38 am
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Wren
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« Reply #18 on: 06 June 2003, 16:44:00 »

Rite of return - in brief:
Death on the other hand is nothing an elf fears. The fact of death is interpreted by the elves as a return to nature. Unlike at the human tradition deaths of elves are celebrated at the Feast of Return, where the ashes of the burnt dead body are sewn into the wind to bring new life somewhere else. Most elven tribes believe in various forms of re-incarnation.

One other thing - Shadow elves, as far as I am aware are the closest in thought to Co'or - being not out and out evil as such, but the destructive balance to Ava's creation.

Therefore not sure that saying they are Co'ors strongest clerics is nessesarily correct. However, its not totally incorrect either. It may just need poking and rewording slightly. See quote from Elf race description page at the bottom of this post. I'm sure you've actually read it I just like it so I tend to post it everywhere I get the chance.

Drogo intended this tribe to be the most dangerous Drow tribe in the north. So you can really go to town on them......

As I understand it, what makes them so dangerous is that unlike shadow elves they are destructive for destructions sake. They do not believe in balance. They are in fact Ava worshipping, but they prefer the dar side of nature... You may also want to consider whether they beleive in the final chapter 'Of Naught' in the Carapdosia. If they do then perhaps they seek to bring it? That would make them a very scary prospect indeed........

'Shadow Elves
A rare elven kind, the Shadow Elves are the opposite of the Light Elves, capturing the very essence of Cor. They are found mostly in the Water Marshes of Northern Sarvonia; the area that once was the mythical elven kingdom of F'v'cl'r. These elves, while close to the Father of Shadows, as they call him, are not inherently evil. Most of the time, they lean towards neutrality. Shadow Elves are found outside of the Marshes only in the most atypical of circumstances. Also, like Light Elves, it is unusual to find them in corporeal form. When appearing within a physical body, Shadow Elves have ebony colored skin and snow white hair.
 

Dark Elves
Possibly the most dangerous of elven kind, these elves follow the path led by the shadow of Cor. It must be emphasized that dark elves cannot be counted as elves who offend against elven principles as a whole. While they are an offshoot of the Shadow Elves, it must be understood that their principles are intrinsically different. While in fact they are as nature-loving as all other kinds of elves, Dark Elves favour the dark side of nature, which is also an legimate way to honor the deeds of Av the Beautiful - by destroying it. Dark Elves acquire a pale skin tone from a lifetime of living in the darkness of their shadowy forest homes, whitening with age. Conversely, their hair and eyes become darker and darker until they reach a jet black color in the oldest of Dark Elves. These elves are also called "Drow".'
 


Anodd yw dwyn dyn oddiar ei dylwyth

Edited by: Wren at: 6/6/03 12:46 am
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Wren
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« Reply #19 on: 06 June 2003, 17:50:00 »

What do you mean no understand in government? Do you mean you don't understand the heading? Or you don't really know how to apply it to this tribe?

Take a look at the Meladrhim (they're quite chaotic in a way) and the Epoyrhim to give you some ideas.


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Rayne (Alr)
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« Reply #20 on: 09 June 2003, 02:17:00 »

I don't understand the system of government Drogo made for them. Have you seen the entry. It makes no sense.

::cries:: Miss Wren, help me! T_T

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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #21 on: 09 June 2003, 07:46:00 »

*giggles*  Ahh - welcome to the wonderful world of entries that don't remain contexually correct! This could take a while, so go get yourself a coffee and a snack kay?

Comfortable?

*sighs* Oh man, has anyone actually ever bothered to read all this stuff all in one go? Its a flippin' nightmare!

OK first lets deal with the Saban Bit. In the Early history of the elves there is a legend about a whole set of famous Drow leaders, all of whom take the name Saban.  Saban Blackcloak is named by the Orcs after these famous Saban's. Unfortunatly the legend isn't particualrly consitent.

Right - Take a look at the F'v'cl'r, Avsh'aela,  

I have MAJOR issues with AvFlares entry! But I have to much on my plate to deal with it right this moment. From these entries you get the impression that Saban II was the son of the revolutionary and founded the Eophyrhim tribe. Note the sentence:

Every firstborn male of Saban's line, from that day forth, would take on the name of Saban once his father died. One incarnation of this family line had become particularly notorious, descending the Hckranian volcano so that he might destroy the Earthen Titan at his home in Hegedorn and gain immortality. However, he was stopped by an innocent soul.

OK - the last bits wrong, cos Saban Blackcloak doesn't come from that line of elves at all....Maybe he should - I could change it, but I think for a ledgendary line to persist that far into Sarvonian history is a bit of a stretch personally? Any feelings on that? But ignoring that, I'm looking at the every firstborn male part. Now if as Drogo says, that the second son of Saban II founded this Northern tribe, it means either his father left him behind, 'Cor came to him in a vision and bade him leave some of his people at the Hovel Frond, and place his second born son, Sovar, as their king.' .

More problemamtic is that it also means that the first born (who would be named Saban) is only ever the high councellor and head of Horg'tarl - never the leader, which seems inappropriate for a name so illustiorous somehow!

High council is self explanitary. Horg'tarl, is I'm afraid, anyones guess! I can't find another mention of it anywhere. All I can think is that it is a meeting between the dependant Ashmarian (human I suspect) tribe and the Losh-Oc. But to have the Losh-Oc - a tribe that 'think it justified to attack and massacre all the other races in Northern Sarvonia.' to be under the 'control', however tenuious, of the drow just seems ridculous to me! And there is no mention of the Drow tribe in the Orc entry....

But then Drogo goes on to say that these tribe have no say

So yeah. I'm puzzled!

The basic jist is that it needs a major reshuffle, and it is up to your disgression how much of it you wish to make use of. I quite like the idea of the Ashmarian as human cattle. I'm not overly fond of herditary monarchy in elven tribes either. It makes elves humans with pointy ears.

I don't know how much help that's been?






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Rayne (Alr)
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« Reply #22 on: 09 June 2003, 11:07:00 »

Who really is Saban the second? There seem to be a bunch of Sabans going around. This Saban is perhaps the first son of Saban Blackcoat? Or... who founded the Eopherhim tribe and who was that Saban's father? Is this the same Saban who got in an argument with Avsh'aela in the Hovel Frond Forest? I'm pretty sure that wasn't Saban Blackcoat... he was the one with the good brother, wasn't he? Or is this Saban that left Avsh'aela in the Hovel Frond Forest another Saban all together..?

Dear Av... this is immensely comfusing. I think I'm developing Sabanphobia.. o.o;;

Maybe we should make up some sort of Family Tree of these Sabans? It might make things easier, not only for this entry, but for future entries.


Finals Monday! Finals Monday! Gahh..

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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
Wren
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« Reply #23 on: 09 June 2003, 13:51:00 »

OK - I've made myself as clear as mud huh? It's really quite simple. Maybe I've made it sound more complex than it is.

Saban Blackcloak is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY Later. He's the Son of Co'or Melor. But you don't need to worry about him he's my problem. He doesn't really effect the Northern continent.

The Saban's mentioned in Drogo's writing are around during the War if the Chosen (so that's like Santharian Prehistory).

Saban 1 - gets killed by the orcs after the fall of fav'lar'car

Saban 2 (eldest son of Saban 1) buggers off to found the Epoyrhim elves, acorrding to that entry at least. He leaves his second son to found the Diorye'oleal elves.

I don't like that for two reasons:

1. I don't like the fact that what are essentially a mythical lineage stretching back to the very dawn of time can persist into the present day. It's like the Elizabethans being able to trace themselves back to Adam and Eve. It makes the myth not a myth but a truth.

2.I don't like hereditary monarchy in elves in general. They are not humans with pointy ears..... The general entry says that 'Rann ship is based on wisdom and talent. Perhaps in the Dio's case it is based on a weapon proficency or cruelty.

So in summary what I'm saying that a lot of this is so unclear that it is your choice whether you wish to work with it or scrap it. Personally I'd be tempted to the latter!  

Definetly loose the bit about the Orcs of Oro, or reasses their relationship. As it stands it is incorrect!

But keep the bit about the Ashmarians. I like the idea of human cattle!


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Rayne (Alr)
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« Reply #24 on: 12 June 2003, 23:26:00 »

Ok, I added in the tattoing thing into appearance. I'd really like to know more about the animal-guides thing. Maybe there is some ritual done when an elfling reaches a certain age to help determine what its animal guide is? What do you think? And what ritual might the elves perform?

I'm still thinking about the government. I'm thinking that perhaps the myth is that Saba 2 got in an argument with someone (I'm thinking a woman perhaps: matriarchal government) and she decided to take her followers and stay in the forest. Perhaps the new leader can be decided by a person's animal guide? Like maybe only one person in a generation will have a certain animal and they will become the new leader? I don't know.. its rather rough right now. I'd like to get your advice on it.

I eliminated all of the Orcs of Oro references, just like you sai. Hopefully it makes more sense now. ^_^''

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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #25 on: 13 June 2003, 20:44:00 »

Yep yep, the Saban that Avash'aelia got into a hissy fit with at the Hovel Frond Forest is the son of the first Saban and his name is actually Sohlim but he took Dad's name as a sign of respect or something.  

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« Reply #26 on: 14 June 2003, 05:11:00 »

Sounds good.....I think that an animal guide would be a type of coming of age thing, and it would be a lovely defining point, marking the Northern Sarvonian elves as culturally very different from their Southern Sarvonian cousins.

In southern sarvonia the rite of age involves a pentagram, and the consideration over the period of a week of what the elf has done so far and what he will do and give in his lifetime to come.....

The exception as far as I am aware, are the Cyrathrhim, who have a kind of Walkabout. Because they beleived they were Fav exiles and spent a considerable time in the mountians, they now have to repeat the feat to be considered adult.

I think a similar sort of 'Walkabout' to use the aussie definition could apply to the North. A youngster must survive in the wilds of world around them, alone and unaided. It is expected that in this time the Gods will guide him to the animal that will guide him. You might want to make the ritual a bit more bloody for the drow tribe. Perhaps he must take the heads of three orcs to prove his worthieness, and given the nearest tribe is the Losh-Oc that would be one H*** of a challenge!!!

Yes - I do think that rulers might be determined by their animal guides! Definetly. Some animals would be infinetly more sacred than others due to their association with certain Gods. For example to the Injerin someone who had the dove as their animal would be associated with Eyasha and therefore close to what that tribe hold in highest esteem. Obviously animals associated with Gods closer to Co'or would be more appropriate here.

We can also assign some others. For example we can pick a particularly speedy animal as a sort of godly messenger, one that can transend the levels of the dream. This would also be important, that person a sort of messenger of the gods - a natural cleric.

We could also for example pick an element (not wind however) and associate superstition with it. For example animals asscoiated with water or earth might be thought to drive an elf mad.....but these superstitions can vary from tribe to tribe as long as the general prinicple remains the same.


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Rayne (Alr)
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« Reply #27 on: 17 June 2003, 13:46:00 »

Ok, some of this probably needs fleshing out. Um... what kind of animal means what?

Some animals we might use:

Moss Bear
Black Grass Snake
Brown Grass Snake
Stilted Elk
Bat

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"There is much misjudgment in the world. Now, I knew you for a unicorn when I first saw you, and I know that I am your friend. Yet you take me for a clown, or a clod, or a betrayer, and so I must be if you see me so. The magic on you is only magic and will vanish as soon as you are free, but the enchantment of error that you put on me I must wear forever in your eyes. We are not always what we seem..." -Schmendrick the Magician, The Last Unicorn
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« Reply #28 on: 18 June 2003, 13:17:00 »

You bestiatry girl. Me people!

I guess some godly animals - or the northern continets closest relative would be good. Gryphs might be a very good guide animal for your tribes leaders as they are associated with Querpur - I know they are mythical, but hey so is Fav.....

Rats - but I think that Quepur association is purely Santharian. Plus I'm yet to finish my ratty entries *huggles her rats*

Ur-Viper, another mythical, its Ameros' animal. A snake with a head at either end of its body, twisted into an infinity symbol with the two heads opposing each other. Might also be important.

Horses could be important. They're associated with both Nethor and Ameros. They're also predominantly wild, swift animals. If I remeber rightly Drogo created a horse for Nothern Sarvonia. Try that......

I'm all out of suggestions.

Any help?


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #29 on: 20 June 2003, 04:50:00 »

Just a note: The orcs of Oro and the Ashz-Oc only lined up with darkelves in the third Sarvonian war and maybe on several sparse occasions, all associated with doing something in the name of Cor and lots of loot. The Ashz-Oc might be even to some extent deceived to go to this war but anyway.

Generally it is not that unlikely for Losh-Oc to ally even with darkelves because the basics of orcish diplomacy are always about gaining power. When allying with darkelves would give a certain Losh-oc leader advantage over his enemies he might do that. It still doesn't mean he won't try to kill the same darkelves when he doesn't need their help anymore.

One question. Are now the Diorye'oleal elves starting the war with Santharia or is it ultimately being lead by Osthe'Mangar and the Diorye'oleal are only part of the Darkfriends?


Koldar Mondrakken, Knight of the Moonlight
Weakness is strength. Hope is life.

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