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Author Topic: The Erpheronians ("Proudmen")  (Read 6519 times)
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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #15 on: 17 June 2004, 12:34:00 »

Since when? When we talked about what is too modern or what would fit into our world, we referred ALWAYS to the midle ages, never to the rennaissance.

We could however say, that with our present king (or with Santhros already) Santharia entered into the age of the renaissance. I thought of introducing things as well, which belong to a later epoche, like the printing machine for the compendium or so. But till now, we are in the middle ages. I take now the classic definition, not the one , where every start into a new, more inventive age is called renaissance(f.e. the Carolingian Renaissance of the 9th century or the Renaissance of the 12th Century).
The term renaissance  (in the classical understanding)   describes the radical  changes that took place in European culture during the 15th and 16th centuries, bringing about the DEMISE of the Middle Ages and  for the first time the values of the modern world.

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« Reply #16 on: 17 June 2004, 22:55:00 »

Santharia does not feel entirely medieval to me.  I've always thought it was somewhere in the transition from the middle ages to the rennaissance.  Except without gunpowder.  


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Curgan
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« Reply #17 on: 28 June 2004, 04:36:00 »

SOME COMMENTS ON THE ENTRY

I liked the thourough descriptions and the attention to detail. Everything indicates that it will be a really nice entry that is in harmony with all the material that already exists (as a Centorauria centered developer this pleases me very much).
 


by convincing the other tribes to peacefully join the glory of the Erpheronian sovereignty

I think it was more like a common decision rather than an Erpheronian annexation. The Centoraurians and the Caltherians were sworn enemies of Erpheronian imperialism and couldn’t care less for the “Erpheronian Glory”


raven haired people were practically non-existing, and if so, they were seen as bad omen and Coór-ridden due to superstitious beliefs

The Centoraurians had many raven haired people and they were not such an unusual sight in order to justify such prejudice.


In 482 b.S. King Thar - after having married the Centoraurian Queen Curogana in 501 b.S. already - formed the Grand Kingdom of Tharania, comprising Erpheronia plus all three southern former enemy kingdoms, Centorauria, Kyrania and Caltharia, expanding Erpheronian territory and influence to a degree no other Erpheronian king has ever managed to achieved through force alone.

If I recall it right, Tharania was initially the joined kingdom of Erpheronians and Centoraurians (after Thar’s marriage) and a while later Kyrania and Caltharia joined since it worked all right. I do not think that Tharania is –and it should not be- an “Erpheronian” kingdom (just like the EU is not a German or a British state). IMHO Tharania (and Santharia later) should be a harmonic cooperation of the Sarvonian tribes, otherwise there will be turbulence and many consistency issues will arise.




As for the Renaissance – Middle Ages subject, I ‘d like to contribute some thoughts. IMHO Santharia is a medieval oriented plane based in a point of view centered around the persons. Nevertheless, technology could advance, and greatly as well. However, what we should never introduce is the modern rule of the machine and the industrial age. By this I mean that Santharia can have at present or in the future stuff like printing machines, sewers, advanced medicine and perhaps a primitive form of electricity. It can never have gunpowder and riffles, automobiles, factories, rockets, heavy machinery and such.

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #18 on: 28 June 2004, 05:25:00 »

the interesting thing is that gunpowder is the earliest of all mentioned technologies. It was introduced in Europe already in the high middle ages. In 1204 Konstantinopel was besieged with bombards.


At the moment I see the great problem why the Tharanian kingdom lasted, that a strange marriage constellation gave Thar claims on all these lands is okay and happened alot in the middle ages but why should archenemies like Centorauria and Erepheronia have any interest for any cooperation? Sooner or later I would see the Centoraurians demand independance from Erepheronian supremacy, only one bad Thgaranian monarch is enough in a monarchy.


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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #19 on: 28 June 2004, 05:42:00 »

Well, it depends on the use of gunpowder. It is surely not possible to use it in riffles (machines), but what about using it for blastings?The gnomes might have invented it, the dwarves might not want it.
And didn't the chinese use it only for fireworks, because they would never have thought of blastings ( deities in the earth)

Having fireworks fo the coronation of the present king would be great! fireworks + additional magic! hey!

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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #20 on: 28 June 2004, 05:45:00 »

In exchange the Chinese had no problem in using flamethrowers and mustard gas in medieval times.;)   While I agree with not introducing it, rifles as all these other stuff is not really a machine, it doesn't involve complex mechanics (like a printing machines). A rifle is metallic barrel with gunpowder. The tricky part is only how to ignite it and that the barrel does not explode.

Maybe we should avoid chemistry/alchemy entirely and make it an obsure way of magic, e.g only practiced by gnomes. To give it some of the magical insecurity (gunpowder does not always work) and thus make it impractical for normal use.


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Edited by: Koldar Mondrakken at: 6/27/04 13:52
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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #21 on: 28 June 2004, 06:13:00 »

Back to the Clothing for now:

Okeydokey, I've checked the Clothing details, and it's mostly ok to give the Erpheronians tunics, broad belts and the kind of armour which was pretty much common in central Europe in the Middle Ages. This all fits quite well together in general.

A few details however aren't that ideal, among them e.g. the fact that the male pants of the lower class were defined to consist mainly of cow leather. Aside from the fact that not everybody of the lower class in a Middle Age society could afford even cow leather (the Erpheronians would be an exception), this kind of clothing would also be very unpractical at work. This is also essential that clothing doesn't hinder the hard manual work peasants and their like have to do, so that's one of the reasons why their clothing looked more like skirts of women today, and the pants the lower class wore were actually not much more than stockings - only at the loins you had some additional kind of undergarment consisting of linen. So the men paragraph at the lower class would need to be adjusted a bit. Cow leather pants are still ok, though I'd write that they are only used at rare occasions like feats or such, and/or by those who don't have that much manual labour to do.

Also:

- In general I suggest to avoid the word "usually" as much as possible, because it is used here quite inflationarily. You can also use other terms like "commonly" or "in general", "often", "mostly" etc. But most often it isn't really necessary to stress the "usually" - at least you describe the common clothes here, so it can also be ommitted here and there.

- This sentence in particular doesn't make much sense this way: "The collar of the shirts has both a triangle-cut color and a circular one." Guess you wanted to say "collar instead of color" here, so I assume you mean "The collar of the shirts are either a triangle-cut or cut in circular fashion."

I've also made an Overview/Introduction paragraph for the seperate Clothing entry, which looks like this:

"The Erpheronians, representing the predominant tribe at the southern Sarvonian continent, not only have had a major impact on politics, economy and everything related to warfare in the Santharian kingdom, but also have influenced the clothing style worn south of the Tandalas to a vast degree in the last centuries. Today people from other continents will take the typical Erpheronian tunic with the characteristic broad belts often simply as Santharian. It is quite understandable that this kind of clothing style spread fast to the south and became more than a fashion only - as compared to other tribes, the Erpheronians always stood for an extremely rich and noble society. Aside from the fact that Erpheronian costumes were introduced as the official clothes for the Santran and other officials, today's Santharians seem to like to identify with this kind of superiority expressed in the clothes worn. Thus it becomes more and more difficult these days to distinguish a rich Avennorian Pearler from a typical Proudman of the north. However, people tend to adapt clothes to their needs and idenities, and so you may find Erpheronian clothing throughout the southern half of the Sarvonian continent, though enriched or adjusted with traditional elements of other cultures.

Below we try to point out the main guidelines of archetypical Erpheronian Clothing, which has been common in the ancient Erpheronian lands, what today is the Santharian north. Clothing details are split into Lower Class, Middle Class, Nobility and Warrior Clothings. The style in all classes, though especially the middle and higher classes, can vary based on position and wealth."


The clothing entry can already go up next update if you can change the part with the cow leather at the men a bit, the other sections are already prepared.

After that we'd only need a short summary of the Clothing part for the main entry.

P.S. I've also updated and adjusted the Appearance part in various ways, so this section is considered final in my point of view.

P.P.S. I've also added the first part of the Holidays, Festivals and Observances.featuring the Armerenda feast. Part 2 is still to come in this section.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 6/27/04 20:06
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« Reply #22 on: 29 June 2004, 15:45:00 »

Thanx for the input, Curgan, good to have the voice of the other side here as well, concerning the unification of the ancient kingdoms. The sentence your refer to sprung definitely from an Erpheronian mind... :lol  - Ok, I'll adjust it a bit in your direction, that's more objective.

Raven-haired: This refers to the Erpheronian tribe itself. I've adjusted that in the entry that there was an initial superstition in ancient Erpheronia, which vanquished especially in the course of time as soon as Erpheronians mingled with Centoraurians.

I have no problem with Centorauria and Erpheronia joining through marriage - it is not a necessity that independence is sought again. Quite to the contrary - Centorauria could strengthen their ties and form a strong monarchy as they profit from each other in various ways. The joining with Kyrania and Caltharia on the other hand could be more like an annexation, as these kingdoms have suffered severely in the preceeding wars.

Technology: I don't mind having gnomes and such with explosives, though only to a certain degree as has been stated. Too much modern technology is counterproductive. It worked perhaps in games like "Thief II" to a limited degree having electricity and magical robots - but too much technology takes out the fun as too many things become possible and the problems arise. Santharia should me oriented on the Middle Ages, in the year 1664 we could have more important inventions already, but we definitely shouldn't overdo it.


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« Reply #23 on: 29 June 2004, 17:04:00 »

From a strong monarchy only the strong monarch profits, not the noblemen and not distinctive groups. Why do you think Ireland and Scotland fought against English supremacy for 500 years? You'd have expected them to see the benefit of a united England. People do not care about the best way government but their way of government. As long as it is not Centoraurian, Kyranian etc. it should/will always have a sting to it.

This is no argueing that it happened but a union does not create benefits, it depends on them. It is not natural nor logic and thus needs imo a great deal of dumb luck (in its history) to not have fallen apart. We must not forget that whole nations equally big to any European major power was gobbled up by this development, such things do not just happen because of some strange mutual benefit it has to be ruled by one king instead of twelve but out of sheer necessity. Nations generally do not like it to be ruled by other nations.


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Curgan
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« Reply #24 on: 30 June 2004, 05:25:00 »

As far as the Centoraurians are concerned, the joining with Erpheronia is not just a marriage thing. As the Helcrani invasion in Centorauria failed, Ileor the kind of Erpheronia spared the Helcrani army as he admired their bravery and valor. Then Ogygor, the future anactar and one of the most esteemed rulers of the Helcrani, vowed that they would surrender their most precious good to the next Erpheronian that would have a heart like Ileor's. This next was Thar who lived and fought with the Centoraurians and finally married their queen and reigned them for some years as their king. The most precious good of the Centoraurians is their freedom. Do not forget that the Tharanian dynasty *has* Centoraurian blood. The joining of Kyrania and Caltheria was a natural consequense since the joining of the two major powers of the area completely changed the balance of power.
I think that Koldars remark is right. That's why i think that Tharania and Santharia should be multi cultural kingdoms based on personal value and equity. Otherwise the Centoraurians would be the first to revolt (since they are pretty fond of their Freedom).
Perhaps a great danger could unite the human tribes although I like the voluntarily unification.



Gunpowder IMHO should be not be used at all or at least be an unknown to the masses substance used by magicians, gnomes and perhaps miners. After the introduction of machines the line of the events and evolution leads to industrialization and modern age technologies which will ruin Caelereth.  

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« Reply #25 on: 03 July 2004, 09:05:00 »

Rayne? Did you read my comments on the leather pants paragraph? If this could be adjusted, I can already integrate this seperate part!


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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #26 on: 05 July 2004, 15:17:00 »

Sorry. Been a bit lacking in inspiration and stuff, but I made the changes.

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« Reply #27 on: 12 July 2004, 08:18:00 »

The Holidays, Festivals and Observances part is finished now, I've added 2 more feasts after the Armerenda. Note that also the Armerenda was slightly updated in various ways to integrate it properly into already developed things (e.g. dark Armeros-coloured sword as the trophy instead of a golden one; stress on traditional Erpheronian feast, which is not province-related today; winner cannot participate after 2 times won, instead of once etc.)

Also I've updated the Clothing section with details Rayne provided in her detailed entry. As the detailed entry contains the whole stuff, the Clothing section here is shortened (though it's still long enough... :lol ). Anyway, so that part is also covered now in the official entry.

I will focus on the People part now - Rayne, if you spot another section you'd like to do, just let me know.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 7/11/04 17:39
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« Reply #28 on: 08 August 2004, 07:43:00 »

The Coat of Arms part has now been adjusted according to the new design... People stuff will follow next soon.


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« Reply #29 on: 09 August 2004, 09:40:00 »

People section now added as well:)  - I have a day off tomorrow, so I'll see to add at least one more section at thsi entry by Monday.


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