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Author Topic: Trolls: Brainstorming  (Read 13608 times)
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ishmaelion
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« Reply #30 on: 16 September 2005, 03:45:00 »

Okay, I've created some words, hope you all like them.;)
It might be hany to create a part about pronunciation, because it isn't easy to growl AND from words. I've done my best though:p  "GH" is pronounced as ch or ggg. long, low and gutteral, like a grunt. "KH" is pronounced as a very short, loud KHE.VERY LOUD AND SHORT!!! So, a word like NIGHAKHAUT (Forest tribe) is pronounced: ni-ggg-a-KHA-ut!
Okay, here they are:

GHANNAKH = ?Male?
GHOMOGH = ?Female?
MESH = White
MASHEGH = Loin-cloth
MOSHMOSH = (Sheep:p , no, just kidding) it means Food
TRUL = Troll
UT = Clan, tribe, group
AAGHUT = War tribe
KLOHNUT = Mountain tribe
MESHIGHUT = Snow Tribe
IGHUT = Stone tribe
NIGHAKHAUT = Forest tribe
GHEREGHUT = Cave tribe
AAGH = Attack
KHEGH! = Watch out (not in a positive manor)
EKH! = STOP!

HEre they are for now, more will follow, but if y'all can check if this is what you were thinking of, I'd be much obliged.:read

Ishmaelion

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« Reply #31 on: 16 September 2005, 05:52:00 »

Maybe this will be a language even I will master ! ;)  

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« Reply #32 on: 16 September 2005, 07:59:00 »

Ishy, I love the language!:loveeyes

I'm not sure if it would be a good idea to put trolls in sentient trees. It would be interesting if a few tribes did, such as the Forest Tribe, but drasils are not ordinary trees.

Maybe the Ice Trolls could be rumored to be trolls, yet some researchers believe that they are monsters. Sorta like how Susilgerim dwarves are believed by some to be a subspecies of dwarf. The Snow Tribe would have a myth about how the tribe split into two tribes. The Ice Trolls could even be untrollish, if that's even a word.

Hmmm....a Wendigo. I've got an idea for a creation myth. The trolls believe that when the world was young two trolls were the only thing that walked upon its surface. They were much larger than ordinary trolls and lived for millennia. The two trolls were twin brothers, one good and one evil. During their lifetimes, they constantly struggled with one another, fighting to see which would prevail. The good brother wanted to create and live in harmony with nature, but the evil one only wanted to destroy and dominate. The good brother created the herbivores of the land (sheep, cattle, etc..) and he planted every tree and plant. The evil brother created the predators and natural disasters to destroy what his twin had created. Though they lived for millennia, they were not immortal. Both died at the same time and from their corpses sprang the trolls. Though the twins were dead, they were not powerless and their spirits continue to watch over the trolls. The good brother welcomes the spirits of the ancestors and blesses the trolls with good hunting. The evil brother is not as powerful as he once was, and he can only whisper promises to those that he would turn to evil. His minions become evil spirits when they die and wreak havoc upon the world.

I know that's very raw, the final version will have more details and flow better. Any suggestions on how the myth could be improved? I'm considering having some tribes be destructive and the others creative, sorta like how elves are divided (dark elves and wood elves). The basis for this would be that some tribes sprang from the good brother's corpse, and other tribes sprang from that of the evil brother. This would also explain why certain tribes of trolls turn to stone in the sunlight, the good brother cursed them for their involvement with his evil twin and they can no longer wreak havoc during the day. Also, the good brother would rule the day, and the evil brother would rule the night. So, some tribes would be dirunal, and some would be nocturnal.

Hmmm....Perhaps Ishy can come up with names for the brothers? Ones that reflect their contrasting natures? It would be greatly appreciated.:biggrin  Also, the Ice Tribe would need a name.  


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« Reply #33 on: 16 September 2005, 08:18:00 »

(rolls around laughing) :rollin

Oh yes, this is great!  You are off to a very good start here, 'Maelion!  I like how you've incorporated the doubling of syllables as a pluralization, I think the sound and look of the language is very trollish,  and the vocabulary list starts with the most crucial words...

Perhaps you could separate all combined words though, so that your units of meaning stand out more clearly. For example, 'forest' would seem to be NIGHAKHA ...

Since I see IGH means 'stone, rock, etc' I'd be cautious  about using that phoneme in unrelated senses.  

'Forest' might be better as NIKNIK (making NIK mean' tree')?

And 'mountain' might quite naturally then be 'lots of rock, large rock'.  Though I like the look of KLOHN...

You should have a word for 'big, large, more, most, much, strong' and the parallel for 'little, small, lesser, weak'.  This will allow you to form quite a few agglomerate words.  What about KLOH for 'big' etc. and SNI  (pronounced 'snee' with lips drawn back) for 'small'?

'mountain' would logically then be KLOIGH (dropping the H where it would only confuse pronunciation) and 'pebble' could be SNIGH (dropping the double letters as necessary)

Some comments, revisions, suggestions on the vocab list so far:

GHANNAKH = Male Troll
GHOMOGH = Female Troll
GH = Being (untranslatable literally.  Has the connotation of 'sentience' or 'living'.  Animals and some plants can be described with the GH syllable.)
NAKH = Maleness (also male genitals, strength, energy, creating)
MOGH = Femaleness (also female genitals, encompassing, protecting, gathering)
MESH = White, snow, clouds
HAMESH = Ice, quartz (literally, 'hard white')
GHEREGH = Cave, home, house, dwelling
MASH = Garment, cloth, covering
NAKHMASH = Loin-cloth
MOGHMASH = X-shaped wrap which covers/supports groin and breasts
MOSHMOSH = (Sheep:p  , no, just kidding) it means Food
TRUL = Troll
TRULTRUL = Trolls, the race of Trolls, all trolls in a group, 'us'.
UT = Clan, tribe, group
AAGHUT = War tribe  (Perfect etymology here!)
KLOIGHUT = Mountain Tribe
MESHUT = Snow Tribe
IGHUT = Stone Tribe
NIKNIKUT = Forest Tribe
GHEREGHUT = Cave Tribe
AAGH! = Attack!
KHEGH! = Beware, watch out!
EKH! = Stop!

Some grammatical observations/ideas:  All verbs are phrased as   present-tense imperatives.  No pronouns ( literally translated, a hunt story might go like this: "GHWERG HIT SHEEP. SHEEP NOT DIE!  BITE SHEEP... SHEEP DIE.  GOOD TASTE!"  There, my version of a Troll epic!  Yes, it sounds primitive.  So it should.  But the language will still be effective in conveying meaning.  And bear in mind that anything with a face and jaw like the pictures is not going to be speaking more sounds than it can help... :P )  A few basic adjectives (good, bad, hot, cold, high, low, large, small)  are needed.    

This is a great start!  Let's have more!

:clap  

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« Reply #34 on: 16 September 2005, 09:40:00 »

I didn't talk of drasils ,Eratin, but of the ordinairy trees the Ulvur cherish as well and don't want to see harmed. If I would have meant the drasil, I would have named them. Look at the pic of the Ulvur town, then you know what I mean.

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Edited by: Talia Sturmwind  at: 9/15/05 17:42
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ishmaelion
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« Reply #35 on: 16 September 2005, 10:08:00 »

KLOH = Big, large, more, most, much, strong
SNI = Little, small, lesser, weak
GHANNAKH = Male Troll
GHOMOGH = Female Troll
GH = Being (untranslatable literally. Has the connotation of 'sentience' or 'living'. Animals and some plants can be described with the GH syllable.)
NAKH = Maleness (also male genitals, strength, energy, creating)
MOGH = Femaleness (also female genitals, encompassing, protecting, gathering)
KLOIGH = Mountain
SNIGH = Pebble
MESH = White
IGHMESH = Snow (lit. white stone)
HAMESH = Ice, quartz (literally, 'hard white')
GHEREGH = Cave, home, house, dwelling
MASH = Garment, cloth, covering
NAKHMASH = Loin-cloth
MOGHMASH = X-shaped wrap which covers/supports groin and breasts
MOSH = Animal
MOSHMOSH = Food
TRUL = Troll
TRULTRUL = Trolls, the race of Trolls, all trolls in a group, 'us'.
NIKH = Tree
UT = Clan, tribe, group
AAGHUT = War tribe
KLOIGHUT = Mountain Tribe
IGHMESHUT = Snow Tribe
IGHUT = Stone Tribe
NIKNIKUT = Forest Tribe
GHEREGHUT = Cave Tribe
HAMESHUT = Ice Tribe
SNITRUL = Human, Elf, Orc
SNISNITRUL = Dwarf, Brownie, other non-Troll small races.
SNIHUT = Human race, Elf race, etc. (used to address the race as a whole)  
AAGH! = Attack!
KHEGH! = Beware, watch out!
EKH! = Stop!
LAGH = negative
MARGH! = Die! (also Death)
GRUMPH = Bite!
ZAGHAKHA = mmm, tasty, yummie
MARGHOGH = Evil
KHOLEM = Good

@Bard, your Trol Epic would go like this: GWERGH AAGH MOSH. MOSH LAGH MARGH! GRUMPH MOSH…MOSH MARGH. ZAGHAKHA!

@Erian: Those two names, after giving it some thought, I came up with MARGHOGH for the evil brother and KHOLEM for the good one. Hope you like them. I added their names as definitions of Evil and Good in the vocabulary list...:thumbup

Will add more later, thanks for all your comments

Ishmaelion

Edited by: ishmaelion  at: 9/15/05 20:14
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Coren FrozenZephyr
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« Reply #36 on: 16 September 2005, 14:07:00 »

If need Trolls on Nybelmar, please ring me first! There are certain areas I really wish to keep non-Trul(ish).

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« Reply #37 on: 16 September 2005, 14:15:00 »

The Forest of Souls on the isles of R'unor is the only place I intend to place trolls within Nybelmar. The entry on the isles already states that there is a troll population within the forest, so you'd have to change that entry if you object to their presence there. The rest of Nybelmar would be troll-free as that is the only place on the continent that mentions trolls. Instead of creating new places for them, I am placing each tribe where trolls are supposed to live within the world of Caelereth.

A tribe of trolls living in trees on the continent of Cyhalloi could work, but they could not live too close to the Ulvur.

Ishy, once again you've done an awesome job with the language.:thumbup  


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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #38 on: 16 September 2005, 17:21:00 »

A couple of suggestions, and questions, some of which others have touched on as well:

I like the wolf pack suggestion,  but with some necessary exceptions. For instance, there should be more than one mated and off-spring producing pair at once.  Trolls are fiercer and more aggressive than wolves.  Trolls could be hunter/gatherers as opposed to just carnivores.

Trolls perhaps have non-nomadic lifestyle? (live in caves maybe, or do they make rudimentary dwellings?) Do Trolls have fire?

Troll religion--probably more of a fear of "the powers out there" (i.e, whatever causes storms, avalanches, etc) and a desire to assuage their wrath or gain their favor --troll witch doctor/shaman/priests?  Or would this be a leader's responsibility, to direct the pack in ways and behaviours that seem to be pleasing to the "Great Unknown" or whatever they would call it.

Anyway, Erian, a few things for you to think about, hmm? :D  

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« Reply #39 on: 16 September 2005, 17:53:00 »

Quote:
For instance, there should be more than one mated and off-spring producing pair at once.
I really don't know what you mean here. Are you saying that the females would have more than one mate at a time?

I agree with the hunter/gatherers as I had intended for them to be that with the males as the hunters and the females as the gatherers. Females would be treated better than they are in orcish society, but they would still be considered to be inferior to males (maybe the orcs are on to something?:lol   j/k)

I was thinking that trolls would live somewhere for years and only move on once the food supply runs low. They create rudimentary dwellings and they live in caves, it depends upon the tribe. Look at what I've written so far in the revision for more details about their nomadic lifestyle.

Yup, they would basically fear evil spirits. Some tribes of trolls would try to appease them and others would fear them. The leader would be the one to commune with spirits and guide each band with his magical abilities and greater intelligence (I mean greater than the other trolls, he wouldn't be that smart)

And yeah, they have fire. The leader would even have the ability to prolong the life of a fire without stuff to burn.

Judith, what is your opinion of the myth I posted earlier? And what do you think of trolls being divided similar to the way elves are?


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

Edited by: Erian Melor at: 9/16/05 1:55
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« Reply #40 on: 16 September 2005, 20:10:00 »

OK, some good solid concepts coming together here! :clap  

I don't think Coren will have any objection if you can provide the reference link for Nybeltruls, Erian.  We are only working with what already exists, and I think the way you're dealing with that will work just fine - isolated enclaves in undeveloped areas.  


My comments on the myth below are in yellow!:


I've got an idea for a creation myth. The trolls believe that when the world was young two trolls were the only thing that walked upon its surface.

And how did they get there?  Perhaps look at the Scandinavian cycles for inspiration here - there might be different versions from tribe to tribe.  Eg. the Ice Trolls say that first there was only ice and snow everywhere in the world.  Then an avalanche happened, and two troll bodies were formed out of the upheaval and snowy boulders.  The wind gave them breath, the sun shone and melted the blood in their veins, and so they came to be..... etc. etc.

They were much larger than ordinary trolls and lived for millennia. The two trolls were twin brothers, one good and one evil. During their lifetime, they constantly struggled with one another, fighting to see which would prevail. The good brother wanted to create and live in harmony with nature, but the evil one only wanted to destroy and dominate. The good brother created the herbivores of the land (sheep, cattle, etc..) and he planted every tree and plant. The evil brother created the predators and natural disasters to destroy what his twin had created. Though they lived for millennia, they were not immortal. Both died at the same time and from their corpses sprang the race of trolls. Though the twins were dead, they were not powerless and their spirits continue to watch over the trolls. The good brother welcomes the spirits of the ancestors and blesses the trolls with good hunting. The evil brother is not as powerful as he once was, and he can only whisper promises to those that he would turn to evil. His minions become evil spirits when they die and wreak havoc upon the world.


This is promising, but the concepts of good and evil are rather humanoid and prejudiced here.  Would trolls truly think that making things was preferable to destroying things?  Do they consider art 'better' than battle?  Do present-day trolls try to 'live in harmony with nature'?   Hmmmmm.... I'm not convinced about this.  You might try to make it less Manichean in nature (less 'white vs black').  

I do like the idea of a division, of diurnal and nocturnal trolls (which would explain things nicely and leave room for future developers and artists to create ideas without being bound to perpetual 'nighttime' pictures...) but perhaps have the brothers disagree about how to live in the world - or when to live.

Or steal that old Native American myth about how death came into the world......  hmmmm.... :idea  


"Grrndrig the Sun and Hwool the Moon saw the two brothers, and saw them living for many sunsets and moonrises, time upon time.  They talked with each other and found that even when they 'died', the sun by night and the moon by day, the brothers were still active and present upon the earth.  So they became jealous and formed a plan.   Grndrig sought out Kphantrul-brother.  Hwool spoke with Soghrn-brother.  And they offered them a choice.

"Would you live forever but suffer pain as you grow ever older, burned by day and made mad by night?  Or would you live at peace with us and die as we do, to return?"

Kphantrul wished to live forever, but Soghrn chose death and rebirth, thinking that as the sun and moon came back each morning and evening, so he would do.

And so the brothers disagreed about which path to take..."

etc. etc.   I won't bother to finish this unless you like the idea.  Of course it leads into Soghrn's choice, as the moon and sun want, and that gives you two pourquois for one tale - not bad!

The names are only placeholders btw - I'm sure Maelion has something for you by now!

Edited by: Bard Judith at: 9/16/05 4:27
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« Reply #41 on: 16 September 2005, 23:38:00 »

Just a question:

Have such primitive people as the trolls such detailed and sophisticated myths? How do they tell the myths - with their rudimentary language? They would fit so far humans.

The orcs are a quite advanced race, so seeing the woman as inferiour in such a war tribe is possible.

And an info:

The trolls are a very primitive society and mammals. As far as I know were ALL primitive cultures  matriarchats, for the women could give birth and were so mysterious and very important for the  tribe's survival. I don't see the need, to make the women inferior, for there is no need as well to design them much weaker as the males. Even childbearing must not be a big issue as in human tribes.

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« Reply #42 on: 17 September 2005, 01:38:00 »

Hey,
Are these two brothers going to reflect Day and Night?
I had these two names: MARGHOGH for the evil/night brother and KHOLEM for the good/day brother. I thought the GH would give the night-brother a more evil look, while the simple pureness of KHOLEM reflects the good/sun Side...
Well, they are just ideas...

Ishmaelion

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« Reply #43 on: 17 September 2005, 08:35:00 »

About the myth, I've been thinking about it, and I think it would be better if the brothers were always spirits. The trolls would then be their creations and would not spring from their corpses, that is too similar to reincarnation for my taste. KHOLEM created the world and everything in it. His final and greatest creation was the trolls who were noble creatures that lived in harmony with nature. They were graceful and beautiful, and it was rare for any one of them to even raise his voice. Their ability to heal and commune with spirits were his gifts to them. MARGHOGH was jealous of his brother, and he twisted the trolls into monstrous beings. He gave them their size, grotesque features, voracious appetite, thick skin, and violent natures. It was his desire to have a creature that would destroy everything his brother had created. MARGHOGH could not create, he could only twist and destroy. Some tribes try to live in harmony with nature and become the noble creatures they once were, but others have embraced the path of destruction and worship MARGHOGH.

I know many would disagree with me about trolls living in harmony with nature, but this is the way I see trolls. The tribes that worship KHOLEM would try to live in harmony with nature but would be unable to do so. The trolls would believe that the world shifts when the sun sets. KHOLEM rules the world of daylight, and MARGHOGH rules the night. Also, trolls would seek shelter during the twilight hours, as they do not want to become lost between the worlds when the shift happens. The ones that worship MARGHOGH would turn to stone if touched by sunlight, as KHOLEM does not want such betrayers roaming his realm. I think the best way to describe the creation of the brothers would be to simply say that they have always been here and always will be. Or at least that is what a troll would say. Instead of black vs. white, it would be chaos vs. order.

You're right, Talia, there is no reason to make the women inferior. They would not be much weaker than the males, and would certainly be stronger than any male of any other race. I think trolls could tell the myths with their language, it just would not be very detailed.

Ishy, the names are great!:thumbup

What perspective should I use when I write this entry? I was thinking that the best way to portray trolls would be from the point of view of someone that met them and managed to survive. Someone that would greatly fear trolls. The only problem I have is that how would such a person know a troll's beliefs, or the way trolls believe they were created? A troll could tell the tale, but then he'd have to speak Tharian and that would be rare for a troll. A person of another race living among trolls would not work, since they would just eat him. Any suggestions?


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

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« Reply #44 on: 17 September 2005, 10:40:00 »

Erian, creative as the myth is, it CAN'T be a trollish myth!

This is all wrong, all of it.  My story too! (tears her hair out in frustration and hopes she can explain herself...) >:

Talia is right that it sounds like something told by a human, but not because of the language (I wrote my version just to get the story across to you as a suggestion, not as if it were translated from the Trullish)

Let's think about it:  What race actually believes themselves to be a twisted perversion of perfection?   The trolls are a simple, primitive species - they can't have such a sophisticated, multi-layered, modern psychological view of themselves!   If a troll thinks about himself - his character, where he came from - it is impossible that he sees himself as warped, evil, changed from some harmonious perfection.

He simply IS what he is, and that is the way everything has always been.  Sure, they live close to nature, but they don't analyse, they simply do.  Think about a Matto Grosso Indian tribe, or a Neanderthal clan - there is none of the introspective morbidity that characterizes a modern urbanite!  

In fact, the more I think about it, the less I like this duality.  Chaos versus order, good versus evil...   It is simply too sophisticated.  Duallity works for the elves, but it isn't going to work for the trolls, and I shouldn't even have suggested the 'death' myth.  :X  

Go back to your 'spirit brothers' idea and let's see if there is something that can come out of that - or better yet, try the matriarchal angle and say that the race of trolls was born from a great chasm-womb in the earth when She was first new....

Sorry to set you haring off down the wrong track.  (shakes head ruefully)  I hope we can regroup and get something started that is more in line with their culture and intellect.

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