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Author Topic: Trolls: Brainstorming  (Read 13619 times)
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Erian Melor
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« Reply #45 on: 17 September 2005, 13:44:00 »

Nooooo.....I like my myth!:(

But you are right, it is far too complicated for trolls. I guess I was trying to force them to be something that they're not.

Hmmm....things got complicated when I introduced the brothers. So, remove them and write the myth as though I were a troll.:crazy

I think I can work with the born of the earth idea. It would nicely explain why burying their dead is so important. Having them born in a fiery chasm would also be in line with what the original entry said about the elements they were created from in the Carpa'dosia. Also, I was going to make it where the leaders of a community stared into a bonfire to commune with the spirits of their ancestors, and the leaders would be able to prolong the life of a fire. So, the first trolls would be born in the fiery chasm, and there would be no spirit brothers.

Without the duality, I can't find a reason for some trolls to turn to stone yet others do not. Trolls turning to stone is a part of Scandinavian folklore, and is what Tolkien based his trolls upon. I'd say that either all trolls turn to stone in the sunlight or none of them do. The original entry is the only place where it is mentioned that trolls turn to stone, so this could be changed. Personally, I'd prefer it if they did not turn to stone as their creation myth would then have to include a reason why. Also, some of the tribes may have no choice but to walk in the sunlight, depending upon their territories.  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

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Bard Judith
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« Reply #46 on: 17 September 2005, 19:42:00 »

:(  Yeah, I know - I got carried away myself....  Sowwy, my bad!

But if you like the chasm and it will tie other elements together, that's a good fresh start!  You seem to have a strong rationale for that working which I didn't think of - I like the bonfire communing, for one.  (Trivia for you:  origin of the word 'bonfire' was 'bonefire'... brrrrrrr! :P )

I hate to lose the 'turning to stone' though.  Not only is it very much part of the trollish mythos, it's Tolkien ( :worship  ) and it works well with the Fields of Peat entry.

:idea   How about this!  

Rather than some sort of instantaneous transmogrification when sunlight strikes troll flesh, why not have sunlight be painful to them (rather like vampires...) - it causes a long-term hardening of their skin which makes it difficult for them to move - frequent exposure to sunlight would indeed cause almost total petrification!  :D

This is not too far 'over the top' for Caelereth, as the Thergerim race undergo something similar (though not sunlight-related) as they age.  In their case it has to do with calcification of their already-heavy joints, although they don't know that.

Thus you have a good reason for the human 'myth' that trolls turn to stone in sunlight, a reason for trolls to avoid (though not shun completely) direct sunlight, and a strong impetus to shape their culture.    You could also rework a bit of my 'death myth' suggestion to create a troll legend about why they and the sun are enemies (of course they would have their own word for 'sun', not Injera).  

What do you think?  Could we work with that?

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"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #47 on: 18 September 2005, 03:49:00 »

You might come into some troubles with your stonyfication idea.

- Not all trolls live in caves, some live in dense forests, where it is not always very dark, or ice, where they would need to build kind of iglues then (too complicated?) .all pictures show the trolls at daylight. (skin-colour is wrong as well!)
- They have a very hard skin anyway, impenetralble for knives and so on - how should sunlight do anything to this skin?

But I got an idea for you: skip your idea of burrying them in earth, but let them die by changing to stone with the time when they are old. They can't move less and less, they need the care of their tribe foodwise, at some point they just have turned to something hard and after a year or so (or longer), they have turned completely to stone. You can have endless ceremonies when the point is reached, that they don't need any food, or can't eat any food anymore. and they are going back to mother earth as well, turning to stone and maybe they are rooted deep into the soil.  

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"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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Bard Judith
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« Reply #48 on: 18 September 2005, 07:35:00 »

Um - Talia - that is EXACTLY the way the Thergerim die.  Sorry, that idea has already been used, Erian!  

For some reason I cannot find the entry on Dwarven Death (though 'Time of Stone' is referenced) in the Compendium, which annoys me, because I've submitted it at least twice in the past.  Well, perhaps that is one of the reasons the whole Dwarven area is under rework - to link properly all the bits of information and knowledge we have about the Thergerim.   It's no wonder Talia couldn't find anything about dwarven beliefs in the underworld/afterlife earlier!  So, without more ado, I'll just copy and paste the relevant text from my own home computer...

----------------------------------------------------------


Aging, Death, Funerals

Dwarves remain active and vigorous well into their late age, but eventually a certain physical change overtakes them, relatively suddenly.  In about the course of a month or so, the elderly dwarf will find it much more difficult to move about than she used to.  Her bones feel heavy and massive, her joints solidifying and grating together. Her skin becomes even more rougher,  almost scaly and calloused, and sensation dims.   Her eyes will film and begin to bulge slightly, so that only far-off objects become clear and focused.  In an underground low-light environment where fine work is prized, this is a severe handicap.  The dwarves say that this change in vision is preparing them to ‘see Trum-Baroll beneath the earth’, and they call this time of change ‘Pragorsthomm’, the Stone-Turning.   When the Pragorsthomm begins, a dwarf must put his affairs in order, dispose of his personal possessions, and prepare for his funeral, as he will have one to three months before ‘Aveferpesthomm’, the Time of Stone -  death -  overtakes him.  

“S/he has become stone” is the way dwarves refer to a dead dwarf - a euphemism for ‘Khorimyeh’, to die, or ‘Khorim’, death.  The dwarf is mourned with physical ex-pressions of grief that are restrained and low-key, but deeply felt.  It is believed that this form of mourning and the attendant rituals were evolved out of the Thergerim sensitivity to excess noise, as well as a security precaution - loud wails could carry well through rock, attract unwanted attention, or even cause cave-ins.  The body, now completely rigid and extremely heavy, is taken to the lowest levels of the excavations for disposal.   In volcanic regions it is preferred to utilize a magma pit, but in other areas a bottomless crevasse or non-connected cave pool is used.  

Once the body has petrified and the life-force departed, most Thergerim believe that the ‘forgespark’ (soul, spirit, essence, or whatever name you care to call the mind and heart that animates a sentient being…) returns to meet its Creator – the great Trum-Baroll – and will dwell in his realm, the underground utopian empire known as Toll Disporbaroll.  We say most, as this is the common belief; some of the older members of the more traditional clans will inform you fiercely that the body itself returns to be animated by the forgespark again, so that the deceased dwarf may have a corporeal existence in Toll Disporbaroll.  Arcane dwarvish writings (not an accepted part of the RockTales, but rather apocryphal) claim that there are in Toll Disporbaroll itself layers within layers, depths within depths, and the purified essence, with or without its body, will move ever deeper, to ever more fulfillment and joy.  

An intimate look at a dwarven funeral may be had here, in the story of Mututaph Foodmaker. . .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Note:  Apparently this story hasn't been placed in the Compendium either, so I've now posted it to the Library Forum, if anyone is interested...)

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"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #49 on: 18 September 2005, 09:24:00 »

I can't remember that you posted this before, for I would have surely taken notice of it, being interested in such things (I love to visit graveyards where ever I go out of job-related interest, my family knows by now, that we have to visit those "Last Reposes" every holidays).

I don't mind , what you are doing with the trolls, but if it happens once with a race of mammals (what is very unlikely), why shouldn't it happen elsewhere as well? Regarding the constitution of the  trolls (skin, not much sense for cold)I would say, it is more likely to happen to them. Didn't you say, it is just a calcification of the joints?
It could  happen in a different way with the trolls (not calcium).
Well, it is not my business, and I don't care, what you decide.

Maybe the dwarves have something in common with the trolls? :p  

***Astropic of the day***
"For me there is only the traveling on paths that have heart, on any path   that may have heart. There I travel, and the only worthwhile challenge is to traverse its full length. And there I travel looking, looking, breathlessly. ~Don Juan"

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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #50 on: 19 September 2005, 11:02:00 »

Sorry, been off for a bit.

To answer your question, Erian, what I meant was, that in a wolf pack only the alpha male and female are allowed to mate and produce pups and I didn't think trolls should or would restrict their breeding in that way.  In other words, trolls could, like wolves, mate for life, but there can be more than one mated pair to a troll tribe.

Anyway, re: the stone thing.  Here's a suggestion.  Maybe their bodies just slowly turn to stone when they die (as opposed to decaying like most bodies) and light and warmth speeds up this process (but only after they are dead).  So then a dying or dead troll will be taken to a sunny, open area (see, we could have simple funeral customs here) so that his/her body will calcify properly. Thus people would later see stone troll bodies in open clearings and make the (incorrect) assumption that sunlight turns trolls to stone.

What do you think?

Alysse the Likely

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Alysse the Likely
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« Reply #51 on: 19 September 2005, 11:46:00 »

Hey now... (cogitates, begins nodding slowly) :nod    Yesssss, that could work.   That could work!

 Trolls turning to stone is so much a part of the mythos that it has to be incorporated somehow.  Yet  the dwarven 'Time of Stone' needs to remain unique and to reinforce the way in which they were conceived years ago.   'Sunlight and trolls don't mix' - but trolls are depicted in daylight illustrations and live in areas where they cannot be completely protected from Injera's rays.    Trolls are primitive - yet trolls have family bonds and simple religious rites.

Alysse's suggestion allows us to incorporate all of those concepts.   It gives a reason for the human stories, it leaves room for trollish beliefs and legends, and it means that trolls can indeed move freely during daylight hours, not restricting them as a nocturnal race.

Yes, Erian,  this could solve some problems right here.  Whaddya think?

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"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
Erian Melor
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« Reply #52 on: 20 September 2005, 08:34:00 »

Awesome!:D   Having trolls turn to stone when they die would make the burial rites unique, which was exactly what I wanted. The trolls would believe that they have returned to the earth to live forever with the spirits of their ancestors. Instead of evil spirits being those that were not buried, they would be those that did not have burial rites performed at their death. By the way, the trolls would believe that anyone banished from the band would become an evil spirit when they died. I already have two ways mentioned in my revision for a troll to be banished: dishonorable combat and a shaman being born at the wrong time. Those that have been banished would not have other trolls around when they died and would not receive the burial rites, so them becoming evil spirits fits with trullish beliefs.

Which section would the burial rites belong in? It seems like they would fit in Family, Society & Culture as well as Beliefs.

I'm considering removing the War Tribe as I cannot find enough animal life in the Wastes of Despair to sustain trolls. The entry on Northern Sarvonia states that trolls are believed to live in the wastes, so I do not think it is necessary for such a rumor to be true. War Trolls are only mentioned in the original entry, and I have enough tribes with the Ice Tribe added to the list.

The revision has been updated with two new sections, more to come in the near future!  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

Edited by: Erian Melor at: 9/19/05 16:35
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ishmaelion
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« Reply #53 on: 20 September 2005, 10:38:00 »

Hi all, are those words I created okay? 'cause I'm very much in the Trollish-tongue at the moment (complaints from classmates for grunting and growling every day) I would like to develop it even further, but don't know if that's okay...:biggrin  

Ishmaelion

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Bard Judith
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« Reply #54 on: 20 September 2005, 18:29:00 »

Maelion, they are awesome!  Can I ask you to copy EVERY single Trullish word in this thread, if they aren't already in your list, and move the whole vocabulary table over into the Language Forum?  Title it "Trullish: New Troll Words Here" or something like that, and then let's keep adding vocab there instead of in this thread.

Thank you muchly, and add whatever you think might be realistic for us humans to know of the troll tongue (don't overwork it!)

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"Give me a land of boughs in leaf /  a land of trees that stand; / where trees are fallen there is grief; /  I love no leafless land."   --A.E. Housman
 
Erian Melor
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« Reply #55 on: 21 September 2005, 09:14:00 »

In the entry on Hobbits, for origins it quotes a passage from the Cárpa'dosía. Would I be allowed to do the same thing for the trolls, with me being the one that writes the passage? Of course, trolls would not believe it, but it would be how elves believe the trolls were created.

I am currently working on the origins of the trolls, so the entry should be finished soon!:biggrin

Who could I say translated the trullish myth? It would be too descriptive to be a direct translation.

Just so everyone knows, the Stone Tribe will probably be my next entry. There is more references to them on the site than any other tribe.

Would the list of trullish words be included in the entry, similar to the entry on the Ulvur? There wouldn't be enough words to create a trullish dictionary, in my humble opinion.  


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #56 on: 21 September 2005, 12:03:00 »

Well, yes, there is a quote from the Cárpa'dosía in the Hobbit entry, but as you can read there, the elves weren't really concerned about halflings, so the name of the race isn't even mentioned in the myth. Same very likely with the trolls, who could have been interpreted as fire-related by-products (fire/earth), but that's probably all you find about trolls in the Cárpa'dosía. So you can mention that if you want.

However. this doesn't really substitute a creation myth or tell us what the trolls think themselves from where they came and why. So this would need to be a seperate myth, similar as Rayne did it in her Haflings entry.

Basic vocabulary can be put into the main entry for now, yup -if we reach a certain quantity, it can move officially to the Languages section.


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Edited by: Artimidor Federkiel at: 9/20/05 20:04
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Erian Melor
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« Reply #57 on: 21 September 2005, 12:16:00 »

I know, I know. I did not intend to use it as a substitute, merely as the elves' view on trolls. Trolls would have their own creation myth that would not be related to the Cárpa'dosía. I'm not looking for a shortcut, I just want the entry to say everything it should about trolls.


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

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Erian Melor
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« Reply #58 on: 22 September 2005, 14:33:00 »

Yay! The revision is finished! Now, for the comments that will force me to rewrite the whole thing.;)

I'd especially like comments on the myth, as it is somewhat ambiguous.


The sun falls from the evening sky,
this life I cannot abide.
The eternal night draws nigh,
I seek the loving embrace of my lost bride.

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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #59 on: 25 September 2005, 12:15:00 »

Quote:
Trolls have even been known to roast their victims alive, laughing as the unfortunate human screams for mercy.

I was wondering why they would do this. They just consider them food, so why would they torture it? And why don't they torture other kinds of food?

Quote:
GHEREGHUT (Cave Tribe): Cave Trolls live in caves, hence the name, within the Tandala Highlands. They often make their homes by enlarging natural caverns with their great strength and sharp claws, the claws of Cave Trolls are believed to be able to cut through stone with ease. Such caves are often rough and lack any decoration, as Trolls are not known for their delving skills. They trade with the goblins that live to the north, trading hides for the superior weaponry crafted by goblins. Such trade has allowed them to become more sophisticated than the other tribes, and a few have even learned to speak Tharian.

I would say they learn Kh'omchr'om (orcish) instead of Tharian.

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