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Author Topic: Contradictions  (Read 3419 times)
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Drasil Razorfang
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« on: 26 May 2006, 20:29:00 »

Ok.  As I am searching for Judith typos, I came across this entry
Quote:
Family, Society and Culture. Dwarves are granted a life span of about two and a half centuries, only very few exceptions exceed the threehundredth cycle. Therefore a dwarf is not not very quick when deciding whom to marry. At the age of 90 male dwarves enter the so-called Age of Choosing. This is a very important time as unlike at the human race where males and females exist in equal numbers dwarven males outnumber dwarven females by far. Also the birth of dwarven children happens usually only once in a lifetime of a dwarven female, although very often more then one child is born at the same time. Be it as it is, many dwarves end their lives unmarried and concentrate on their work instead, which also seems an important reason why dwarven work stands for quality.
in the dwarven section and it COMPLETELY goes against Judith's entry on the "Dwarven Sex" which I was believe was approved.

Just wanted to bring this to everyone's attention so that it would get updated.

P.Sp:  You'll be seeing alot of these from me if they have to do with Judith in my quest to become teh 3rd person to ever find a typo made by her :D  

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Pikel
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« Reply #1 on: 26 May 2006, 20:54:00 »

...

I'm not sure i like what you are doing. How would YOU like it if someone started looking through every single one of your entries just to finda typo so that he might broadcast it across the forums. This seems....spiteful to me.

I really don't think you should be doing this.



**DISCLAIMER** I apologize to anyone I may have offended in the above post. I would like to assure you that was (most likely) not my goal. I would also like to assure you that the above post (again, most likely) in no way reflects the views of the Santharian boards or their webmaster, Artimidor Federkiel

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Ta`lia of the Seven Jewels
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« Reply #2 on: 26 May 2006, 22:07:00 »

And as a self-appointed searcher of typos in other post, please watch your own grammar - it is annoying for me to read posts twice, because I'm not sure, I have understood it when reading it the first time ;)  

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Kalína Dalá'isyrás
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« Reply #3 on: 26 May 2006, 23:15:00 »

This is actually quite rude Drasil.


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xerampelinae deicida
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« Reply #4 on: 27 May 2006, 00:22:00 »

I fail to see the contradiction this paragraph appears to be consistent with the dwarven sex entry.

It takes atleast 2 statements to have a contradiction. When pointing out contridictions it would help if you mentioned both statements.

I would limit pointing out contridictions to things which greatly confuse you or issues that come up when working on a proposal. Remember the writers are only human and if you go picking each entry over with a fine tooth comb you will find contradictions.

If you go around making nonconstructive criticism you will only serve to make people mad

so don't go crazy hunting contridictions

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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #5 on: 27 May 2006, 05:48:00 »

@Pikel:  This did not come from one of her entries that is on the boards, it came from on sight.  Also, its not a mistake on her part I believe, simply outdated information that Artimidor forgot to update or it was never brough to his attention.  I am not looking for typos when I read her work on site, instead, I am reading it because it is enjoyable.  This just happened to come to my atention as I was reading.

@ Talia: *gasp* I would have thought you and Kalina would have had identical comments about rudeness.  :)  Well anyways, point taken and I am trying to type slower so that I make sure there are not as many typos.

@Kalina:  I am sorry this came off being rude and it was meant in no way to insult Bard.  I just wanted to bring up to Artimidor that the information currently found on the site does not reflect her latest work and should probably be updated unless there is some specific reason that I do not know about, seeing as he has marked the entry as integrated when techincally, because of this entry, it is not.

@ Xera:  If you read Bard's post, she states first "the males and females are in equal rations" while this says that males far surpass females.  Secondly, it says a single child is born, while in reality there are two.  I know this may seem nitpicky and insignificant, but Bard dedicated quite a few lengthy paragraphs to these topics.  

Also, as I said above to Kalina and Pikel, this was not an attempt to find a typo, instead I was asking Artimidor to update this paragraph on the site so that it would not lead to further confusion.

@ All:  I hope I answered everyone's questions/comments.  If nto say so and I will try to clarify more.

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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #6 on: 27 May 2006, 07:26:00 »

Quote:
This is a very important time as unlike at the human race where males and females exist in equal numbers dwarven males outnumber dwarven females by far.

Quote:
Also the birth of dwarven children happens usually only once in a lifetime of a dwarven female, although very often more then one child is born at the same time.

You might want to reread. I don't see any contradictions.

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Drasil Razorfang
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« Reply #7 on: 27 May 2006, 08:41:00 »

Quote:
As you might expect in a society where there are three males to every two females, there is some competition for the dwarfmaidens’ favours.
 IMHO, this is not by far.

Quote:
In the dwarfmatron’s reproductive years she is able to have two pregnancies, almost always of two children - sometimes identical twins, but not always. (A passage from the writings of a respected female dwarf healer, roughly translated, says, "StoneFather gave us two hands, two feet, two eyes, two ears, and two milkfalls that we might increase the race of Thergerim two babes at a time.";)  It has happened that a dwarfmatron has had a third pregnancy, though it is very unusual – about as often as a human might give birth to triplets. The gestation period is roughly four to five human years. It is not obvious that a female is pregnant until her third year, and sometimes not even then, as dwarves are a deep-chested, full-bellied race and their women carry deep and low.
 There is a section of the mentioned article which is approved.

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Edited by: Drasil Razorfang at: 5/26/06 16:44
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #8 on: 28 May 2006, 01:00:00 »

The Dwarven Overview, which I believe is the section first quoted, was not written by me.  It is a very early contribution and is sadly outdated.  Having said that, I should note that it was pretty much the only thing I had to work with when I first came to Caelereth (before it was named that!) and took on the task of developing the dwarves from almost-scratch.  I've tried to respect the initial ideas while creating a plausible and memorable culture!

The Overview is due for a complete 'Overhaul' very shortly, since, as has been noted, it contradicts the most current information we have available to us :p

Thank you for your toran-eagle-eye, Drasil, and I do hope it will result in the discovery and correction of as-yet-unnoted errors or contradictions within the site.  With so many different contributors and so few patient editors, some things must inevitably slip by.  Perhaps if we could turn our attention to the many submissions that require commentary, the situation would improve...

Now, 'tis nearly two o' the clock and I'm so weary I can't type straight - so to bed for me!

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Rakshiri
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« Reply #9 on: 20 August 2006, 07:59:26 »

Quote:Also the birth of dwarven children happens usually only once in a lifetime of a dwarven female, although very often more then one child is born at the same time.


Uhm, sorry for digging up this thread but I think this aspect would need some mor details to how this works as if we take this sentence as it is the dwarven population would be decreasing with every single generation because it is implied that the male female ratio is heavily in favour of males and females on average only carry children once in their life and on average they only sometimes (even though more regularly than humans) bear twins or more.

Assuming a population of 1000 an a ratio of 2:1 in males:females you'd maybe have 334 females.

They get on average two children per female: 334*2 = 668

These children would have again a ratio of 2:1 males to females so only about 223 females left in the next generation which is a significant drop in population.

As one can see it is just not possible for dwarves to just give birth to twins more regularly, they always have to give birth to three children or even more to maintain the population levels (considering disease, accidents and all kinds of other hazards that might prevent an individual of having offspring thus being unable to contribute to the next generation). This or they usually have children more often than once in their life.

Because of the tilted gender ratio the dwarves would need more children, not less, than humans (with their roughly 2.1 children today)  to maintain a population


Might seem like a detail but imo some additional detail should flow into that aspect to clarify it better. I just stumbled over it reading this thread. The entry on marriage and mating points out that twins are regular and two pregnancies are possible but that still sounds very risky as it only states that a female _can_ have two pregnancies, given the mathematics however on average they would need to have at least two pregnancies to achieve a population stability/boost. Things get worse if the gender ratio is even more in favour of males and we assume a higher child mortality because of medieval living conditions (though difficult how bad it would be for dwarves it was obviously still a problem up to the 18th century).
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Vesk Lyricahl
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« Reply #10 on: 20 August 2006, 11:14:44 »

I won't even bother thinking about your math, its too late for such. However, there are a few things I'd like to point out.

1) As Judith states, the overview on dwarves is outdated and due for an update, so take everything read there with a grain of salt so to speak.

2) Her marriage and mating entry states that it is the third pregnancy that is rare, thus implying that the second is common enough.

3) Males outnumber females at a 3:2 ratio. Since the ratio is the basis of your math, its not likely to be correct.
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Rakshiri
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« Reply #11 on: 20 August 2006, 19:59:39 »

The entry is saying a dwarven woman is _able_ to have two pregnancies which from a biological point of view is not necessarily reassuring as dwarves _need_ two pregnancies to maintain or increase their population size.

The problem does not disappear with any other ratio that favours the male population because in any of that cases a species again _needs_ more than 2 children for population increase. In the case of a 5:3 ratio (the entry states that there are two thirds more males than females) a rate of roughly 2.6. children would be necessary which would be really far better though I personally wouldn't have guessed such a low difference from the wording "males outnumbe femalesr by far"

As I pointed out mainly the wording keeps things a little fuzzy as math would actually _demand_ that certain numbers have to be reached at all costs or they will die out. If things seem so regulated in dwarven physiology this seems rather risky at points and makes things very rigid:
As dwarves give birth to twins and usually only have two pregnancies they have to have both pregnancies because two children is too few and two will result in 4 children. That leaves very few space for error.
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Marvin Cerambit
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« Reply #12 on: 20 August 2006, 22:56:07 »

Only about half the women need to have two pregnancies. Possibly it could be less, since I doubt dwarves will have much children dieing at birth and nearly all women will marry, so that helps sustaining the population I guess.
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Bard Judith
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« Reply #13 on: 21 August 2006, 01:11:55 »

Why is this issue still coming up?  I know the overview needs an overhaul, but the entry on Dwarven Mating and Marriage is fairly thoroughly detailed - and was discussed, edited, rewritten, and polished to get this taken care of.

Almost every dwarven female marries, no matter how plain her face or sharp her tongue, and almost every dwarven female has two pregnancies (four children).  Almost all of those children survive, as dwarves have a very low child mortality rate (see the above quoted entry for some clear reasons why). 

Also, I don't see a difficulty with the race of dwarves EVENTUALLY dying away in some unpredictable far future!  (Perhaps that is why they don't exist on Terra today ;)  despite our many tales and legends of the Small People?)   We will not be writing 'future' history of Santharia, and even if this project continues for the next fifty years (may Art live to a hundred and his beard ever increase!) the dwarves are in no danger of being written into an evolutionary dead-end by that time...

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