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Author Topic: some help for the bows section  (Read 3500 times)
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KavaLuun
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« on: 02 February 2003, 19:36:00 »

just like to say hello to everyone, this is my first post, and firsttime onthe site. I thought you could use some help with the bows section.

I was just passing by (a friend said your resident archery expert left, and asked me to take a look at the bows and stuff, and give my opinnion.

(I've been a competative archer for 6 years, shooting for 9. so I do know something about the sport.)

do note, I havn't read much into the world, so you'll have to excuse if I say anything that is wrong as far as the different world is concerned.

first of all, I was extreamly surprised at the sight of a compound bow in the descriptions, it just seems rather odd in a fantasy setting, though I'm sure this is an argument had many times over, so I won't argue it again.

one thing that should be mensioned though with a compound is let off. once the cams "turn over" the archer is actually holding a lot les of the draw weight. (sometimes the let off is as much as 80%) which allows a much heavyer bow to be fired without the archer getitng tired, and without him feeling the effects of a heavyer bow (like shaking)
higher draw weight = higher velocity = more acurate

also I do believe that the compound string is one long string that goes through the pulley/cam system, so that it looks like there are 3 strings. but my compliments on the mention of a bow press, and the fact that if you loose a string you're screwed.

personally, the ranges look a little off to me. a crossbow should be able to fire a lot farther then a compound bow. probably around 6 or 7 dash (though I don't know that much of crossbows, that sounds about right bassed off the draweighs you get.) and also crossbows should be more along the lins of 150-175 ob (please correct me if I'm using wrong units anywhere here...) and there should also be a coment that they are a lot easyer to fire, and more acurate, because everything is the same, for every shot. and also you should note, that if compond bosw can be used, that a crossbow can use a "limb of any of the other types of bows. though most comonly they would be recurve (which I will get to right about now.)

The third thing that stuck out is anouther main type of bow, and my personal favorite (it's what I shoot.) and that is the Recurve.  getting it's name from the shape of the limbs, it is more acurate then a short, long, composite, or brownie bow, because of 2 main things, 1 the way the limbs bend. (I'm not certain of this next part, but I think...) the shape allows them to bend in the same spot, which allows for a more consisten release of the power. the second bit, is that the arrow rest (where the arrow sits on) is aligned with the center of the bow (though it's not a hole in it...)so the bow doesn't have to be canted or tilted when it's shot.

The recurve would be harder to make, because it's a lot more sculptured then a long bow, but it's a good midway point between the inacuracys of a long bow, and the complexity of a compound. um, maximum draw weight would be about 60od minimum around 10, and max range would be about 1 dash.

and also to note, a 10od draw weight will get you mabey 25 peds max. unless there's something about these browny bows that I don't kno. (which I'll assume)

anouther good comment would be about the different ways of actually shooting a bow. of which there are basically 3.

1) instinctual : the way the true masters shoot. the entire focus is on the target, no part of the bow, and you aim by what "feels right" it's a style that's developed over time, and you work on feeling.

2)semi instinctual: you use a part of the bow, or the tip of the arrow to align, but it is very rarely over the target. it's a reference for about where the arrow will go, nothing more. the true aiming is still instinctual.

3) sighted: the arrow, part of the bow, or aditional aparatus is used to aim at the target, or a specific point. sometime is not considerd as efficient, because on the battle feild you will have to "find your mark" or "sight in" which is finding the point at which you aim, depending on distence, wind speed, and other variables. which will take a few shots, inevitably wasting arrows. however ones the mark is found, it is more consistent then the other two.

also there are different forms and ways of drawing the bow, I would recomend having different races use different methods, and styles. mabey have the elves focus on being streight and fluent, whereas the humans consider ballence most important when shooting, but I don't knwo the races well enough to dictate what they should think.

just my 2 cents worth (and mabey a little bit more) I hope I didn't bore you people to death. feel free to use any quotes Ive given, but be careful sing the picture, I got the basic picture from www.pse-archery.com (it's a bow they sell) and then alterd it, so it may still be under their copyrights. and once again, excuse my ignorence about the world. especially if I got the units mixed up.

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Rayne (Alýr)
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« Reply #1 on: 02 February 2003, 19:50:00 »

I'm no expert on weaponry. (The only weapon I've ever done is the Armored Fan.) If I could ask Legolas what he thought about the entry, I would, but he seems to have disappeared. I'd ask Illian, but he's also away. As for Dasson, he's at that LAN party-thing, so I suppose I'll just have to go with gut.

Given your credentials, I can't doubt any the information you've given. It seems to me that many of the arguments and the information you've brought up should be integrated into the existing Bow entry. It'll make things make a lot more sense, I think.

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Erutan Argon
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« Reply #2 on: 02 February 2003, 20:06:00 »

Wowy. What a stunner. Welcome to the development boards my friend. I am astounded at your knowledge of archery KavaLuun. I'm sure many here would welcome such a mind into the world of Santharia. It is true, Legolas does not come around the boards much more, thus an opening has been created. I hope you continue to come here my friend and share your knowledge. :)  

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Bard Judith
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« Reply #3 on: 03 February 2003, 19:22:00 »

Welcome, KavaLuun!

Thanks for taking the time to type in ALL that information (which even I understood...) and to include a graphic just to make the concept clearer...




Regarding the Bow entry itself - some feedback here, please?

This whole pulley/line system seems awfully fussy for a medieval-era weapon, I have to say...we like to keep technology to the da Vinci level where possible so as not to introduce too many anachronisms.

Although I realize that a pulley is hardly micro-chip era science, the idea of shoving one on the end of a bow seems...hm.... how shall I put this...more like a Dragonrealms Gnomish Inventor Trading Card than like a serious Tolkienian concept...

Anyone else?  Kava? Koldar?  (sits down and toasts an anachronistic marshmallow on the end of her dagger blade while waiting for a response...)

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« Reply #4 on: 04 February 2003, 11:55:00 »

"and also to note, a 10od draw weight will get you mabey 25 peds max. unless there's something about these browny bows that I don't kno. (which I'll assume)"

yeah, this is a difficult one. How do you measure range for a weapon that fires arrows a couple of inches long from a bow of similar size?

Actually range is less important to me than accuracy. It has to be pinpoint accuracy, with any reasonable archer being able to make the equivalent of LOTR 1 Moria legolas shot, in order to compensate for size and such.

Recurve sounds promising......
I would welcome whatever help you can give my 6 inch tall archers.

 


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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #5 on: 05 February 2003, 15:24:00 »

Maybe you could try your hand on a bit of a rework on this bow page, KavaLuun, by integrating all your knowledge and try to present it in a medieval way, as Judy suggested. As it then would be a rework of an existing entry, please make sure to tell me which paragraphs you adjusted etc. (mark them) I'd be happy to have a bow expert elaborating more details here.


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KavaLuun
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« Reply #6 on: 05 February 2003, 18:06:00 »

I'll deffinatly see what I can do.  

I'll read it over again, and hopefully post my recomendations within the next couple of days. (fully justified of coarse.)

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KavaLuun
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« Reply #7 on: 07 February 2003, 20:35:00 »

alright, here we go.

most of the bosw section I left alone.  on the whole I thouht it was written really well.  so I'll only post the differences here.

if you want to view the entire re-write, it is here

basically the first thing I changed, was to take out anything that had to do with the compound, by the sounds of what you guys were saying, it wasn't the most popular selection, and it's my main recomendation to take it out.  I personally think a compound would be to difficult, to precise, and have to much streess to be built in a fantasy setting.  

I added a little blurb on the end of the flights, about the different noises they made.

I added the recurve.  (description basically what I said in the original post)

I added the information I told you about the cross bow, and changed the ranges around a little bit, to make them a little more reasonable to my estimates.  

the final change I mad was the addition of a "of shooting the bow" section.  designed to give a little information on how to shoot a bow.  

I can post exact quotes for any one who requests.

do note, these are only recomendations, weather you accept them or not is up to you.  (and if that other guy comes back, he may have something to say about it.)

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Viresse
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« Reply #8 on: 07 February 2003, 23:35:00 »

Good idea about removing the Compounds.


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Artimidor Federkiel
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« Reply #9 on: 08 February 2003, 11:57:00 »

Can you perhaps mark those sentences you definitely changed or added in your document with another color (blue for example)? This would make it much easier for me to update the entry!


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KavaLuun
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« Reply #10 on: 08 February 2003, 18:08:00 »

there ya go, I knew I was forgetting something.

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KavaLuun
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« Reply #11 on: 08 February 2003, 18:31:00 »

I'm sorry, I didn't quite understand the question about Brownies at the time, but I just read the information, so lets see what solutions I can think of.

*thinks*

here's kind of an interesting idea, since Brownies are so small, the distence will be less, but if accuracy is your key, there are some ways to get around that.

first of all, The arrow is a very important part in accuracy.  mabey instead of having the Key to the accuracy in the Bow, have it in the arrows.  for example, if an arrow is bent, then it won't fly as streight.  same with if the flights/fletches aren't aligned properly.  

I say, mabey the Brownies are extreamly good at making streight, light (I'l explain that in a second) and extreamly accurate arrows.  in wich turn, increases the accuracys of their bows.

now, the next idea, comes from the pure size.  for that size, the drawweight is extreamly large.  which in this case is a good thing.  you see, 2 inch arrows shot from a bow with that kind of drawweight, may not go that far, in big people terms, but they will go FAST.  and a higher velocity basically means tighter groups (I got that when I increased the pundage onmy bow.)  which is more accurate.  so if there's a wood they can use that's like balsa wood, except a little stronger, then they could use that.  which would give the arrows practically no weight, and they will fly.

just a thought.

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Greybark
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« Reply #12 on: 09 February 2003, 06:12:00 »

I'm liking your thoughts.......
Please, feel free!


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Koldar Mondrakken
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« Reply #13 on: 09 February 2003, 10:11:00 »

Well, sounds good to me though generally I have a bit of a problem in general with such entries as they make weapon lists without mentioning cultural background.

By accident I just wrote that the Kaýrhem of Nybelmar use Recurve bows but in my eyes it would be as important to know why e.g. perhaps Erpheronian do not use such bows or prefer crossbows.

When any land has any weapon we lose cultural focus on the regions and then everything is looking the same.

That is not a rant concerning the bows only, just thought somehow Recurves were not very common in Europe as far as I know but the longbow and crossbow was while the Orient and Asia developed great composite bows more. These are details that make different cultures indeed look distinct.

This just came to my mind as I watched the Two towers again. teh fantastic thing there was how different weapons and armor the people of Gondor, Rohan and the Elves as well the different Orcs. The elven culture looked really different from the humans. And Gondor looked indeed more technically advanced than the armor and cloth of the people of Rohan.

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KavaLuun
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« Reply #14 on: 11 February 2003, 19:36:00 »

I compleatly understand your concern, the reason I didn't specify any cultures is for the simple reason of how new I am.  I do not know enough about any of the cultures to make any inferences as to what they would use, although I did see quite a few recurves in use by Elves in LOTR (here's a nice example)

I believe that's Legolas' bow...
but anyways, I believe the recurve was made originally in englad, although because it was so much harder and more expensive to make then a long bow (just look at the pictures) that it never really did see much action during medieval times.  

if someone does want to connect a recurve to a certain race, or society, probably the best qualities would be that is can be made to look a lot more decorative then other types of bows, and it's a lot more "fluent" in draw and shot.  it has a lot more curves, and it's a lot smoother then other types of bow.  and it would be the mark of good craftsmanship.

and yeah, that was one of the best parts of the movie, is that you could tell an elven sword from a dwarven sword.  and also the styles were very much like the races they came from.  for example, the dwarves designs were very square, and streight.  a lot of right angles, while the elves were curved and smooth.

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